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Posted: 3/27/2018 9:18:40 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
goooood find! totally glad i went with 75-80gr mindset on this build. heck the eld 80 are as long as a 90 iirc! i know the 75eld is the same length at the SMK when i put em next to each other. my loaded 75tmj will be here today to start the fun Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Here's an interesting thread. http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/223-90-grain-sierra-match-king-bullet-match-report.3892402/ my loaded 75tmj will be here today to start the fun Guys in that thread from 2016 talked about 90gr SMKs blowing apart in twist rates less than 1:7 in 2005. If this is still an issue, I would take that to mean a 1:7 is on the ragged edge of not tearing them apart. I would guess Sierra learned about folks using the 90gr SMK in fast twist .223 barrels and have built (even overbuilt) them to survive the faster rotational velocities. It would have been foolish for them and Federal to introduce factory ammo with this bullet if it was going to be suspect in anything tighter than a 1:7. My .02 |
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Posted: 3/27/2018 9:19:44 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I just hope this doesn't turn into promises not made like the 22 nosler debacle |
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Posted: 3/27/2018 10:14:16 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I just hope this doesn't turn into promises not made like the 22 nosler debacle |
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Posted: 3/29/2018 9:41:29 PM EDT
[#4]
found a node :). side note....i need an expander mandrel as my rcbs is sizing necks to .219 not .222.
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Posted: 3/30/2018 1:59:20 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Trust me you want the faster twist. Extra barrel length helps a tiny bit but not enough to get it done on those long bullets. Greg |
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Posted: 3/30/2018 2:01:22 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So, in your opinion, how small and how fast can the 1-in-7" run ... and would I like a 1-in-8" better ? I am in a unique position ... I can make myself whatever my heart desires. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Thin skinned light varmint bullets like tye 50 VMAX,will blow up at around 3700 or so in an eight twist. The Noslers will stay together. Faster twist will be worse plus you have the long throat jump designed for the big boys. Odd, all that research and the first thing they did was drop that 100 grain pill. I think someone dropped the ball on the seven twist. Greg I am in a unique position ... I can make myself whatever my heart desires. 
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Posted: 3/30/2018 4:25:46 PM EDT
[#7]
2800fps @ muzzle for 80gr eld = 12moa to get to 600yds. thats 4min savings over 75gr otm .223. already showing good results. 1000yds opening up here soon so i can throw em to 1050.
ps these cases NEED annealed. i tried 2nd loading without and the .222 sizer couldnt keep back the spring. i was getting consistant .219 and deformed hornady pills from loading op. i got some benzomatic and hit the necks and with the same dies im now seeing consistant .221-.222 on the necks. the cases are fsirly thick on the necks so the spring back will bite you on resizing non annealed. just a heads up! also...federal cases are showing MAX oal after firing factory ammo, and the flash holes were in need of cleaning up. just my notes so far. |
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Posted: 3/30/2018 6:15:39 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Greener formula. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Trust me you want the faster twist. Extra barrel length helps a tiny bit but not enough to get it done on those long bullets. Greg It works well for lead bullets, though. |
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Posted: 3/30/2018 6:31:51 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm really curious to know why the calculator look good with 1:7 twist but Sierra says 1:6.5. Anyone got an explanation from Sierra? 1.64 SG at standard conditions according to AB Mobile.  Attached FileI suspect Sierra is playing it safe accounting for worst case scenarios. |
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Posted: 3/30/2018 6:51:42 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
FWIW: I shoot 90smks(2.580" oal) out of my 18" .223 with WC SPR 1:7 twist bbl at sea level in cold weather at 2600fps. They stabilize fine, have had them predictable and repeatable(.1-.2mil of AB Mobile prediction) to 1060yds half a dozen different trips that I have taken it that far. 1.64 SG at standard conditions according to AB Mobile. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/83091/90smk_13sht_neck_zpsrpcwqxkz-499504.JPG I suspect Sierra is playing it safe accounting for worst case scenarios. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I'm really curious to know why the calculator look good with 1:7 twist but Sierra says 1:6.5. Anyone got an explanation from Sierra? 1.64 SG at standard conditions according to AB Mobile. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/83091/90smk_13sht_neck_zpsrpcwqxkz-499504.JPG I suspect Sierra is playing it safe accounting for worst case scenarios. |
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Posted: 3/30/2018 9:51:02 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Sierras notoriously conservative with their twist recommendations. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Quoted:
I'm really curious to know why the calculator look good with 1:7 twist but Sierra says 1:6.5. Anyone got an explanation from Sierra? 1.64 SG at standard conditions according to AB Mobile. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/83091/90smk_13sht_neck_zpsrpcwqxkz-499504.JPG I suspect Sierra is playing it safe accounting for worst case scenarios. |
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Posted: 3/30/2018 11:45:46 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Deal with enough stupid people and eventually you just give up and play it safe. 
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Posted: 3/31/2018 4:10:28 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Deal with enough
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Posted: 3/31/2018 9:12:56 PM EDT
[#14]
I fall back to my early statement....whether stupid people, slack manufacturers, or a terrible combination of environmental factors, a heavy for caliber bullet which leaves the barrel spinning faster is going to be better for the shooter when it comes to repeatability at intermediate/long range.
For the varmint shooters, god bless ya, but this caliber is for banging steel at range. |
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Posted: 3/31/2018 9:55:32 PM EDT
[#15]
Ya know what else was funny today - went on a minor local hunt for 6.5 Grendel ammo. Found .224V dies and ammo at two stores, found zero Grendel dies or brass but did find a couple boxes of ammo at a retail++ shop.
Also had a box from LaRue waiting for me --- Grendel mags and some misc parts. Always love the Dillo Dust!! |
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Posted: 4/6/2018 7:21:36 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Pretty sure you mean Greenhill, which isn't as accurate as it could be for copper jacketed VLDs. It works well for lead bullets, though. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
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Trust me you want the faster twist. Extra barrel length helps a tiny bit but not enough to get it done on those long bullets. Greg It works well for lead bullets, though.  And the Greenhill formula is OK for a rough rule-of-thumb on conventional projectiles, VLD edges towards a slightly tighter twist.
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Posted: 4/9/2018 2:14:30 PM EDT
[#17]
There seem to be a lot of smart ballistically minded folks in this thread, so I hope I can get away with posting this question in it.
All the talk about the Valkyrie seems to be around long barrels and longer ranges. The thing about it that comes to my mind is the opportunity to push heavy bullets out of short barrels and still having useful velocities and pushing out the fragmentation range for those bullets to decent hunting ranges. Is there any discussion on this thought anywhere, or am I looking at the cartridge for the completely wrong reason? |
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Posted: 4/9/2018 6:55:58 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There seem to be a lot of smart ballistically minded folks in this thread, so I hope I can get away with posting this question in it. All the talk about the Valkyrie seems to be around long barrels and longer ranges. The thing about it that comes to my mind is the opportunity to push heavy bullets out of short barrels and still having useful velocities and pushing out the fragmentation range for those bullets to decent hunting ranges. Is there any discussion on this thought anywhere, or am I looking at the cartridge for the completely wrong reason? |
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Posted: 4/11/2018 11:54:30 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There seem to be a lot of smart ballistically minded folks in this thread, so I hope I can get away with posting this question in it. All the talk about the Valkyrie seems to be around long barrels and longer ranges. The thing about it that comes to my mind is the opportunity to push heavy bullets out of short barrels and still having useful velocities and pushing out the fragmentation range for those bullets to decent hunting ranges. Is there any discussion on this thought anywhere, or am I looking at the cartridge for the completely wrong reason? |
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Posted: 4/13/2018 3:25:17 PM EDT
[#20]
Thanks for sharing that thread. It was an interesting read. Though it seemed that the possible SBR performance for the Valkyrie was dismissed fairly quickly in it.
I will admit. I dismissed it too at first. Reading this article https://rifleshooter.com/2018/02/224-valkyrie-effect-of-barrel-length-on-velocity/ caused me to get more interested. They didn't do barrel lengths under 16.5, but it was only giving up about 20 fps per inch down to 16. I would think you would still have some viability at 14.5 I was just shooting pigs with Mk262 last night and getting good performance with a 12.5 barrel and 5.56. It just seems 224 would still allow me to shoot the same bullet and extend that same performance out a little further. |
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Posted: 4/13/2018 5:04:17 PM EDT
[#21]
Some of the articles I have read or seen on YouTube seem to have groups that don't look right. They tend to be 3 and 2 a lot of times that suggests more powder or faster twist. I don't think they can get more velocity out of the cartridge sooooo.
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Posted: 4/13/2018 5:36:04 PM EDT
[#22]
Criterion states on their web site that faster twist options will be available later this year. I'm Guessing 3rd quarter. I'll wait and see what comes out.
http://criterionbarrels.com/barrels/ar-15/224-valkyrie-ar-15-barrels Stuart |
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Posted: 4/13/2018 8:15:46 PM EDT
[#23]
did 600yds today with my mk12 and my .224 valk.....mk12 needed a full mil right hold on wind for the stiff breeze we had. the valk 80gr eld absolutely laughed at this and poa was poi for 12moa. even on the smal 12" sized plate. the impact of a suppressed 75gr OTM .223 was faint. the valk and the creedmoor both hit 400 and 600 HARD. clearly audible difference. the .223 was ok to 400m with wind but after that i already see how much less the other 2 drift. pretty crazy!
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Posted: 4/15/2018 12:07:52 PM EDT
[#24]
I want an off the shelf mk 12 mod 0 upper in 224 V
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Posted: 4/17/2018 6:58:19 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I want an off the shelf mk 12 mod 0 upper in 224 V |
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Posted: 4/17/2018 6:59:50 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
PRI will be offering that. 
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Posted: 4/17/2018 9:09:46 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I want the same but mod 1 |
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Posted: 4/17/2018 9:55:29 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
so get a bison barrel and bolt for like $280 and a $12 stoner 6.8sc mag and swap parts out lol |
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Posted: 4/18/2018 12:34:53 AM EDT
[#29]
Was smacking steel last Saturday at 800y no problem with a lightweight 12" Grendel and Hornady 123gr ammo. Even had a little twitchy wind to watch out for.
Took the same carbine out into the brush to smack some running bunnies. Still verrry curious to hear velocity numbers on 224V factory ammo and barrel lengths. Then stability reports for same at distance. |
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Posted: 4/18/2018 11:45:37 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Was smacking steel last Saturday at 800y no problem with a lightweight 12" Grendel and Hornady 123gr ammo. Even had a little twitchy wind to watch out for. Took the same carbine out into the brush to smack some running bunnies. Still verrry curious to hear velocity numbers on 224V factory ammo and barrel lengths. Then stability reports for same at distance. |
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Posted: 4/18/2018 5:13:33 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Are bison barrels GTG? |
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Posted: 4/26/2018 10:43:06 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
hey all, i just installed a Bison 20" SS 1/7 .224 valk in a clone build and I will be shooting the 75gr TMJ to zero and benchmark and use for brass, and then load (hoping to be exclusive to these 2) Hornady ELD 75/80gr pills for 1000 all day load. going to start with varget. these ELD have a .460-.485BC and i do t wanna push 90's. i dont push 140's in our 6.5 CM. I push 130's. i knda favor right below the big pills to make it......simpler. The N133 powder is a little on the fast side as far as burn rate looking at the Sierra tables, but then again they were shooting out of a much longer barrel for their testing, specifically a 24" with a 1:8 twist. If I cannot get high velocities without seeing ovepressure signs, I'll try something slower like N140. Interestingly enough, on Johnny's Reloading Bench, he indicated he might try N140 in one of his 224V loading/testing videos. As others have pointed out here and elsewhere, the groups my Savage MSR15 shoots with the Federal 90gr Sierra HPBT are not great (much greater than 1 MOA @ 100yds) but it groups better with the lighter Federal loads (I tried them all) which indicates to me it is at least possible that it is not a fast enough twist to stabilize the 90gr bullet. I'll be interested to see your progress. |
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Posted: 4/27/2018 12:32:12 AM EDT
[#33]
mine shoots to 600yds weekly with a 2800fps 80gr eld sub moa. loving it. .223is a blaster and varmind round for me now
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Posted: 4/28/2018 10:14:48 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
mine shoots to 600yds weekly with a 2800fps 80gr eld sub moa. loving it. .223is a blaster and varmind round for me now |
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Posted: 5/8/2018 10:37:15 AM EDT
[#35]
I got tired of waiting for a faster twist barrel and purchased a 20" Larue 224V in 1/7. Now I just need to put this thing together and see how it shoots.
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Posted: 5/8/2018 10:58:21 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Trust me you want the faster twist. Extra barrel length helps a tiny bit but not enough to get it done on those long bullets. Greg |
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Posted: 5/8/2018 3:52:54 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That is very encouraging to hear! Thanks for the update. |
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Posted: 5/8/2018 6:43:17 PM EDT
[#38]
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Posted: 5/8/2018 11:49:03 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote History |
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Posted: 5/14/2018 2:36:47 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryI live in a state with that can see anywhere from 10-110F during the year. |
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Posted: 5/14/2018 4:42:20 PM EDT
[#41]
^^^
I don't agree with your "no doubt tighter twist needed" assertions. And you sea level guys with a LaRue 224V barrel got yourselves a cold weather action item.  . |
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Posted: 5/14/2018 6:37:39 PM EDT
[#42]
While 1:7 might be the best compromise twist for running the 90gr SMKs all the way down to the 60gr Nosler varmint rounds, and probably a good idea from a manufacturing standpoint since it's already a well established twist rate for .224 diameter cartridges and most places already had blanks available, if you are marketing this round for long range then a faster twist will be better.
There is a thread over on SnipersHide at the moment regarding hyper-stabilized bullets and so long as you aren't spinning them fast enough to blow apart, which seems unlikely based on the case volume, then all a faster twist is going to do is rob a bit of velocity. But, as the saying goes, velocity is beautiful, but BC lasts forever. I live in VA close to sea level and will shoot in temps down to the high teens. My theory is that the 90gr SMK, and the heavier 95gr SMK and other heavy/long .224 bullets which are bound to come to market should the Valk take off, will be best serves with a 1:6 or at least a 1:6.5. Guys with bolt guns with 1:6.5 twist barrels are getting great results accuracy-wise with handloads and the increased stability is going to outweigh the minimal velocity loss. Just my opinion, but you don't see long range guys going with slow twists barrels in any caliber these days for good reason.... |
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Posted: 5/14/2018 8:28:47 PM EDT
[#43]
I just finished building a 1:7 twist 22-250 this weekend . I really didn't have anything ready to shoot other than some 50 grain noslers over H380 . Brand new clean barrel it shot 1/2" group. If the thin jacket ballistic tips stay together I have no doubt anything heavier will shoot fine.
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Posted: 5/14/2018 8:30:35 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I just finished building a 1:7 twist 22-250 this weekend . I really didn't have anything ready to shoot other than some 50 grain noslers over H380 . Brand new clean barrel it shot 1/2" group. If the thin jacket ballistic tips stay together I have no doubt anything heavier will shoot fine. Try some Hornady SXs.
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Posted: 5/14/2018 9:04:49 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I just finished building a 1:7 twist 22-250 this weekend . I really didn't have anything ready to shoot other than some 50 grain noslers over H380 . Brand new clean barrel it shot 1/2" group. If the thin jacket ballistic tips stay together I have no doubt anything heavier will shoot fine. 
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Posted: 5/14/2018 11:08:32 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Ballistic Tips aren't a particularly thin jacketed bullet. Try some Hornady SXs. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I just finished building a 1:7 twist 22-250 this weekend . I really didn't have anything ready to shoot other than some 50 grain noslers over H380 . Brand new clean barrel it shot 1/2" group. If the thin jacket ballistic tips stay together I have no doubt anything heavier will shoot fine. Try some Hornady SXs. |
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Posted: 5/15/2018 12:20:48 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The nosler tips are much softer then others they mark easily when seating. I've shot thousands from the factory twist barrel on pdogs . Hoping 75 grain amax may reach out further. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
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I just finished building a 1:7 twist 22-250 this weekend . I really didn't have anything ready to shoot other than some 50 grain noslers over H380 . Brand new clean barrel it shot 1/2" group. If the thin jacket ballistic tips stay together I have no doubt anything heavier will shoot fine. Try some Hornady SXs. |
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Posted: 5/15/2018 7:34:25 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
He’s talking about your comment about thin jackets not the hardness of the tip |
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Posted: 5/15/2018 8:03:38 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My 22-250 1:14 shoots the 40 grain VMax @ 4000 fps. Red Spray results out to 700+. Every barrel has a happy place! Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I just finished building a 1:7 twist 22-250 this weekend . I really didn't have anything ready to shoot other than some 50 grain noslers over H380 . Brand new clean barrel it shot 1/2" group. If the thin jacket ballistic tips stay together I have no doubt anything heavier will shoot fine. Sierra may just be hedging their bets by recommending a 1:6.5 for the 90s and 95s, but with every barrel being just a little different, I would hate to get the one that is a thou larger in the lands department and doesn't get the necessary rotational velocity to wring all the possible accuracy out of the ice pick-like 90s and 95s. And if the Valk does take off I would have to imagine Hornady and Berger will jump into the game with 90-100+gr offerings. It would seem that a 100-105gr .224, loaded longer than 2.260" for the Six8 rifle and mags, would be a great PRS rifle with little recoil and great wind defeating capabilities. Calling hits on steel for said bullet is a topic for another day, but I can't imagine we'll be stuck with decades old heavy .224 bullets should this caliber grow legs. |
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Posted: 5/15/2018 8:35:19 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
snip Just my opinion, but you don't see long range guys going with slow twists barrels in any caliber these days for good reason.... |
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