AR Sponsor
Posted: 1/1/2017 5:04:23 PM EDT
|
Has anyone bought the Dpms gen 2 and cut the barrel back to 18" and changed some other stuff like the gas block, handguard and stock and still maintain good accuracy, reliability and maybe even shed a little weight?
I mainly been looking at the hunter do to reports the rifle length gas system seem to work better. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. Also would people still recommend the Gen 2 over the large frame? |
|
Are you doing the work yourself, or sending it off to have the mods. made?
I don't have the hunter, I bought the recon model. So far, changing stuff out's been a mess. The gas block set screws were glued in with rock set. Got them loose though. The quad rail was glued to the barrel nut with rock set (gouged it up pretty bad getting it loose.) The quad rail jam nut was glued to the barrel nut with rock set (used a flat chisel and hammer to get it loose as the wrench just kept slipping when I hit it with a hammer = couldn't budge it by hand). The barrel nut was NOT glued to the barrel but the barrel nut wrench tore the holes in it all to pieces getting the nut loose/off. The new YHM free float tube has different threads on it than the DPMS barrel nut so I have to get the DPMS barrel nut off. I have, so far, been unable to remove the flash hider. A big wrench (22mm) just buggered up the flats on the back of the flash suppressor). I ordered the AAC tool for the flash suppressor and neither my SnapOn battery operated impact wrench (with heat on the flash suppressor) nor my 1/2" air operated impact wrench would break it loose. The SnapOn just hammered it with no movement and the air impact would slowly turn the barrel in the leather wrap I used to clamp the barrel in the vise. I've ordered a 3-way combination barrel vise block (should get it about the middle of this week so hopefully I'll get the flash suppressor off then). I've ordered, but no received, an adjustable gas block. I ordered and installed an M16A1 fixed butt stock (I like those much better than the A2/longer butt stock). I know the hunter doesn't have the flash suppressor issues but may have all the rock set issues, so take it into consideration. Some people say their GII's didn't have rock set on them (I'm lucky that way). Other that all that mess, it has been 100% reliable when a the range. It shoots decent groups considering I left the scope loose in the rings on the first trip and on the second trip the cantilever scope mount was in contact with the top rail of the quad rail (didn't notice that till I was cleaning it). I want to like it, just gotta get past all this silly start up stuff first. Oh, Midway has had, so far, pretty good sale prices on PMags for the GII (and other .308 AR type rifles). I've bought several 20 and 25 round magazines. |
|
You might consider the 16" version (lite hunter? Can't recall what they are calling it now) if you are considering cutting the barrel to 18". I know there are potential gas issues, but it would save a lot of effort, and you lose very little in 2" of barrel length.
The gas blocks are aluminum on all of them AFAIK, you aren't saving any weight by swapping it out. Might be better in the long term with proper material, most just don't shoot enough to have problems with the AL piece is my suspicion. Not sure what weight you'd save by swapping out a carbon fiber handguard with a metal one of any type. If you want an actual hunting gun, other than swapping out the stock I can't imagine the lite hunter (16" barrel) would serve you wrong. If you want to do something else with the gun, you are in for some work and expense. The "large frame" variants are going to be quite a bit cheaper. As for barrel blocks and what not if going that route, you'll want/need a large vise (6" or so IMO), plus a bench that will NOT move when you are torquing/beating on things. I had no issues with my vise/table, coupled with aluminum barrel blocks and purpose-made leather squares to hold the barrel in the barrel blocks. Not that disassembly was easy, just that I wasn't fighting to keep things solid as I was trying to remove parts. You'll also want/need the proper pin punch for the gas tube roll pin. If you can find something already made with the components you want, or generally that way with easily swapped out components (like buttstock) you'll come out ahead. DPMS has made some changes to the GII to alleviate some issues/problems discovered by us early adopters, other than those issues they seem to be good guns. IMO if considering one of them, I'd want to verify it has the "2nd generation" bolt/carrier before purchase. |
|
Quoted:
Are you doing the work yourself, or sending it off to have the mods. made? Wow that does sound like a mess. LOL I plan on having a gun smith cut and thread the barrel. Replacing the gas block, stock and hand guard my self. I hear MI is making rails for the G2 now so I may go with it. Just trying to figure out if it would be worth it or not or just build one. |
|
Quoted:
You might consider the 16" version (lite hunter? Can't recall what they are calling it now) if you are considering cutting the barrel to 18". I know there are potential gas issues, but it would save a lot of effort, and you lose very little in 2" of barrel length. It will be kind of a multi purpose rifle or as multi purpose as I can get it. I think the 16" lite version is the AP4 but its a carbine length gas system which I'm not sure I want. Plus i'm not sure I want the extra blast of a 16" Maybe building one might be a better option. I'll wait to see if anyone else chimes in on this. |
|
I can't keep track of what DPMS is doing anymore with the "hunter" guns.
The compact hunter is the one I'm thinking of: http://www.dpmsinc.com/assets/images/promo/2015Spring_DPMSRebate.jpg But IIRC, there have been other threads on it, and it's a 16" barrel, not 18". I also can't find links to where it's being sold. But I'm fairly certain someone said they are out there. Ok, found a couple things to look at: Compact Hunter for sale AR15.com Compact Hunter thread |
|
Quoted:
I can't keep track of what DPMS is doing anymore with the "hunter" guns. The compact hunter is the one I'm thinking of: http://www.dpmsinc.com/assets/images/promo/2015Spring_DPMSRebate.jpg But IIRC, there have been other threads on it, and it's a 16" barrel, not 18". I also can't find links to where it's being sold. But I'm fairly certain someone said they are out there. Ok, found a couple things to look at: Compact Hunter for sale AR15.com Compact Hunter thread LOL that's funny. I didn't know they had a 16" version of the hunter. I was clicking on the "new Gen 2" on DPMS web site and didn't think about clicking on the hunter rifle. Plus I'm surprised I didn't come across it with googling the hunter. I tried using the search function on this site and nothing came up. I'm sure I am doing something wrong. I'll look into that a little more. Thank you. |
|
DPMS has unfortunately squandered some potential with the GII, thus far anyway. I have to assume none of it has been intentional, but they promised alternative calibers from the outset, which have never materialized, and now three years later or so, factory parts are only starting to be available, and very limited quantity and type. Just the other day a company released some barrel extensions, finally. The offering of free-floating hand guards are pretty limited really too. I don't think there is anything wrong with the carbon fiber handguards the hunters come with, but the Recon handguard is way too heavy IMO.
Not to mention the whole compact hunter deal. You can find references to it all over the place, but you'll find it listed with an 18" barrel in most of the literature. |
|
A few people in 3-gun have cut the Hunter down and threaded it, dunno if anyone had it profiled smaller. They seemed pretty happy, mainly did it to get the softer-shooting (faster follow-ups) of rifle-gas on a shorter package. Haven't seen any complaints.
I went a different route, started with a Bull 24", changed the stock, grip, trigger, charging handle latch, added a Superlative adjustable gas block for $75. Unlike the above poster, everything on mine went quick, smooth and easy. I anticipate the handguard will be 'fun' when I get to it, but thats not uncommon on ARs in my experience. I think some builders hire the guys that install my lugnuts to torque barrel nuts on. I find receiver vice blocks and a pipe wrench make everything easy. The 'stock' handguards are pretty much throwaway. As far as reliability, I bought mine in Q4 2016 and all the first-run issues seem to have been resolved. Magpul M3 mags locked back on last round, but I 'modded' mine anyway for peace of mind. Took appx 5 minutes while lazily enjoying a cigar in the shed. I considered starting with the Hunter, but wanted a little bit meatier profile, and enough to thread the barrel to 3/4x24. Tho, from what ive seen, the Hunter is actually the most accurate of the GIIs anyway. ANY metal handguard will add weight, but is a necessity if you want to run BUIS. Another option is keep the carbon fiber and run an offset lightweight holographic mounted to the receiver. There is enough room up there for that if you put a scope in an 'SPR'-type forward mount. But since cutting the barrel means removing the handguard, which generally means destroying it if carbon fiber, its a good time to upgrade anyway. The SLRs dont add much weight, and give you LOTS more options for mounting. Seems that DPMS, like many manufacturers, overgasses these for reliability. An adjustable gas block is recommended. The Compact Hunter is gonna be my 2017 Christmas gift if DPMS runs another rebate. I have plans to build a sub-6.5lb Scout rifle with it, tho im thinking that may be TOO light for the 308 to be pleasant. The large frames, are cheaper. There is a larger aftermarket for Match Grade barrels, though now you can get a barrel extension for $75 and have a match barrel rolled for you. The large frames are necessary for military clones. But everything else, GII all the way. The feel is amazing, lighter and smaller. The weight on paper is small, but really noticeable when handling. When you look at the add-ons the GII comes with, custom light BCG, titanium firing pin, common 'billet' mods on a lighter/stronger forged receiver; the small price premium over the Large Frame is still a great deal. Plus, you can still add almost all the lightweight go-fast mods. If you go hunting, hiking, or plan on carrying it far, hard to put a price on the weight saved. |
|
One of my two GII Hunter rifles will get broken down and sent to ADCO to have the barrel pulled and cut back to 18" and threaded.
I bought my first back when they were called the GII Lite Hunter. It has proven to be accurate and reliable, it is also light and handles well. I put the Magpul QDS sling system on it, and carried it all day with a 20 round magazine, it was not a burden (note, to be fair, I'm no small guy at 6'-1" and 230#). Now, it did not have an optic on it, I had already put a YHM gas block and Troy sights on it. I bought a second rifle for the specific purpose of modifying one of the two rifles to be shorter and lighter, for use as a short to medium range rifle. So the plan is to take both rifles out in the next 2-3 weeks to test them for accuracy (optic installed), as I expect the new rifle to be just as reliable as the first. The most accurate rifle will retain its 20" barrel, and the other will get broken down and sent off to ADCO. |
| What happened to the Maten small frame .308 platform? I hear almost nothing about them, but maybe I've just been missing it. They've been out since earlier this year if I'm reading correctly. Aren't they based on the DPMS GenII design? I'm not a DPMS hater by any means, but if Maten makes basically the same thing, I'm thinking I'd have more confidence in their finished product. |
|
Quoted:
What happened to the Maten small frame .308 platform? I hear almost nothing about them, but maybe I've just been missing it. They've been out since earlier this year if I'm reading correctly. Aren't they based on the DPMS GenII design? I'm not a DPMS hater by any means, but if Maten makes basically the same thing, I'm thinking I'd have more confidence in their finished product. I think your mostly correct except that Mega has yet to make any available, they've missed their deadline and they said that they will only sell complete rifles ($2500) Mega SF. So if you want a complete small frame 308 rifle for a bit over $1k (got my Recon for $1,100.) its the G2 right now. POF is also supposed to be making a small frame 308 called the Revolution, but they seem to be in the same boat as Mega. |
|
Quoted:
What happened to the Maten small frame .308 platform? I hear almost nothing about them, but maybe I've just been missing it. They've been out since earlier this year if I'm reading correctly. Aren't they based on the DPMS GenII design? I'm not a DPMS hater by any means, but if Maten makes basically the same thing, I'm thinking I'd have more confidence in their finished product. Yeah I don't know what's going on with the SF-Maten. I posted a question on Mega website about it since it was way past their release date. They removed the question from the board with out responding. I have sent 2 email to them with no response. So who knows. |
|
Quoted:
One of my two GII Hunter rifles will get broken down and sent to ADCO to have the barrel pulled and cut back to 18" and threaded. I bought my first back when they were called the GII Lite Hunter. It has proven to be accurate and reliable, it is also light and handles well. I put the Magpul QDS sling system on it, and carried it all day with a 20 round magazine, it was not a burden (note, to be fair, I'm no small guy at 6'-1" and 230#). Now, it did not have an optic on it, I had already put a YHM gas block and Troy sights on it. I bought a second rifle for the specific purpose of modifying one of the two rifles to be shorter and lighter, for use as a short to medium range rifle. So the plan is to take both rifles out in the next 2-3 weeks to test them for accuracy (optic installed), as I expect the new rifle to be just as reliable as the first. The most accurate rifle will retain its 20" barrel, and the other will get broken down and sent off to ADCO. Have to let me know how that works out. Looking on ADCO website it looks like they can move the gas port. Could be a option if I decided to go with a 16" Ap4 and have the port moved from carbine length to Mid length. |
|
Quoted:
The large frames, are cheaper. There is a larger aftermarket for Match Grade barrels, though now you can get a barrel extension for $75 and have a match barrel rolled for you. The large frames are necessary for military clones. But everything else, GII all the way. The feel is amazing, lighter and smaller. The weight on paper is small, but really noticeable when handling. When you look at the add-ons the GII comes with, custom light BCG, titanium firing pin, common 'billet' mods on a lighter/stronger forged receiver; the small price premium over the Large Frame is still a great deal. Plus, you can still add almost all the lightweight go-fast mods. If you go hunting, hiking, or plan on carrying it far, hard to put a price on the weight saved. From what I'm looking at if I build a large frame 308 I can get the weight right at 7lbs with no mag for a little more then what the 18" gen 2 will cost me. I guess What I need to do is find a gun store around that has a small frame 308 in stock and finger bang it. May also look in to the cost of having a barrel made. Thanks everyone |
|
If you have one close, Cabela's had been stocking the GII's. I'd call first though, most of us aren't close enough to make the trip and then find out they don't have it and not consider it a waste of time.
I've not compared the cost/effort of making a large frame gun weigh the same as a small frame, but IIRC, the BCG alone is at least a ~6oz difference. With less upper and lower receiver material, and substantially less carrier weight, you'll either have to make some serious compromises in components to get the weight similar, or spend significantly more money (or time) locating and modifying components that drive the weight down. Someone here modified a large frame bolt carrier to drive the weight down, and after that work, it was about where the GII bolt carrier already was. Worrying about cost on a .308 AR *build* is pretty counter-productive IMO, as parts start to add up, you quickly reach the price point of the complete Armalite and DPMS guns. Obviously you want the best deal on the components, but even with great deals, components are expensive, and the nightmare of wading the nothing-is-standard .308 AR parts minefield is not to be scoffed at. From what DPMS has had to change on the GII's even after testing, it doesn't surprise me that others like Maten are taking their time and getting it right, if they decide it's worth doing in the end. Last I checked the small-framed gun from Maten was still listed on their website, but as mentioned, nothing about it really since it was initially announced. |
|
Quoted:
Don't have a cabela's close by but I do have a Buds Gun shop about an hour away. I'll give them a call this weekend and see what they have. I wonder if Adams Arm had to make any changes to there plate form since its based off the DPMS from what I understand. The Adams Arms are running a year or so behind DPMS, and from what im seeing they are where DPMS was a year ago: still working out the bugs. Im hoping Adams gets their problems fixed by next Christmas :D and it sounds like their warranty shop understands the issues. Mostly tight chambers and gas port issues. It just may be taking Adams time to filter that feedback to the factory floor, implement changes, and get the stock out to shelves. I ordered my Bull from Buds, and they often run out of stock on any particular GII model. This indicates to me that you are very likely to get a 'newer' rifle through Buds, as they are restocked often, and mine has been flawless so seems to (anecdotally) show that. But my local Big R has a Hunter on the shelf too, so might be worth calling around to handle one in person. |
|
Just in case if anyone cares I called a few places about getting a barrel made for the DPMS gen2. X-caliber was the first one and they pretty much told me if they didn't have the set up there they couldn't make one. Second place I called was Mcgown and they said they could make the barrel if barrel extension was provided.
Said it be around 232 up to 18" and after that add 10.00 per inch. I didn't ask how much it be for fluting or anything. So it be about 232 plus what the extension cost you which someone said they are running about 75.00. (which seems high for a barrel extension to me) I don't know much about Mcgown but they have precision in the name so they must be good right? JK :) Still trying to locate someone closer to me then buds that has one in stock but so far i have no luck. |
AR Sponsor