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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - G2 Recon - brass (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 2/3/2016 12:09:37 PM EDT
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I got a chance to try out a friend's G2 Recon last weekend as I've been on the lookout for a while for a lightweight, reliable 308 AR style rifle. I was firing new ZQI 150gr ammo. The gun ran fine and I like the way it handled and shot. As an avid reloader I started checking out the brass when I got back home. Almost every case had a smear/swipe on the back of it and the case head was expanded enough it wouldn't even drop in the case gauge. I'd be surprised to get more than a couple of reloadings out of brass that's gone through this rifle before I started getting separations. It was expanded .003 more at the case head than brass that's gone through my M1a.
Is anyone else reloading for the G2 (or other .308 AR type rifle) and noticed this? I have bought military brass that was reported to be shot through SR25 and it was fine. |
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I don't think you'll get more than a couple three loadings from any brass shot through an autoloader IMO.
They do seem to be "overgassed" (I'm talking GII Recon as well) but so does most every other factory AR it appears. I have not measured the base on them after firing, but I don't see any swipes. I've not yet had the opportunity to test the same loads that were splitting/tearing commercial brass with the adjustable gas block I installed, but I'm hoping that it will work the brass a bit less. Instead of worrying TOO much about brass life (which is hard for me!) I just stock up on brass when I can. Get enough of it (1000+), and it's worth it to send to someone else to process IMO. |
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The GII Recon uses a heavily gassed MLGS 16" barrel.
ZQI is also not consistently loaded when looking at charge weights. If you want to baby your brass, you will need to make some changes, either buffering heavier, choking the gas, or getting a longer gas system like on the 20" Hunter. As to brass life in gas guns, I get excellent brass life with 6.5 Grendel. Some people have gotten up to 20 loads until the head stamps were shot out. I've gotten more than 3 loads with .260 Rem in the LR260, so there is no reason you can't get decent brass life. Lapua and LC brass will give you excellent life, especially if you don't push the pressures. |
I appreciate the feedback. All of my .30 cal semi-auto reloading has been with the Garand and the M1a. Although they have a reputation for beating the crap out brass, they don't seem to have anything on the G2. As mentioned, I'm able to a lot of reloads out of LC brass, (and although I haven't pushed it, HXP with the M1 does fine) I don't overwork the brass when doing the full-length resize, so it hasn't been a problem.
Just trying to figure out what I want to do as far as this type of rifle goes. Brass life/reloading is just part of the consideration. But, I'd never seen swipes like this on my stuff, so it sent up a red flag. I'm sure the dual ejectors make it look twice as bad 
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Look at the gas system length on the Garand and M1A, then look at the ammunition you're shooting.
M80 7.62 NATO was meant to run in gas system lengths like the M14 and AR10 have, not the MLGS GII, so port pressure is higher. Carrier mass is also lower, so extraction appears to be violent and abusive. You can get adjustable gas, or add buffer weight to increase lock time, which will allow case obturation to rebound back to a more pleasant condition. |
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I picked up a G2 Recon this weekend at the local fun show. First time I'd seen one for sale locally and it was priced better than what I was finding online. Based on the advice here and everything else I was reading I went ahead put a SLR gas block on it. Haven't had a chance to shoot it yet, but may run out over lunch to put a few through it and see how it does.
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Made it to the range today to dial in the SLR gas block. At the fourth click up from closed it didn't have enough gas to even fully eject the case.
Turning it up, 5, 6, & 7 all ejected the case but wouldn't lock the bolt back on a pmag. 8 clicks up from closed and it worked. I am a little perplexed about the primer cratering on the brass from this rifle (which is a different rifle than the first pics I posted) I understand from reading around that it was an issue early on with these rifles, but that they had fixed it. Also, still swiping, but the case head measurement is better at .470 
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Quoted:
Made it to the range today to dial in the SLR gas block. At the fourth click up from closed it didn't have enough gas to even fully eject the case. http://www.kirkwheeler.com/pics/SLR_04.jpg Turning it up, 5, 6, & 7 all ejected the case but wouldn't lock the bolt back on a pmag. 8 clicks up from closed and it worked. I am a little perplexed about the primer cratering on the brass from this rifle (which is a different rifle than the first pics I posted) I understand from reading around that it was an issue early on with these rifles, but that they had fixed it. Also, still swiping, but the case head measurement is better at .470 http://www.kirkwheeler.com/pics/SLR_gasblocksettings.jpg That is primer flow into the firing pin aperture, which is too large in this case. What load were you shooting? |
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You are aware of the Pmag issues with the GII, right? Just because it won't lock the bolt back, don't necessarily blame the gas. I'm sure it factors in, but check your follower and see if it's gouged from the bolt lugs.
You can check the bolt to determine old/new, but I agree, mine does the same thing and it's the old bolt with the large firing pin tunnel. Never pierced a primer. |
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My bolt matches the old style shown here: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_2_627/249930_.html
I was aware that older pmags had a prob, but thought that got worked out with GEN M3 versions? |
| What are the dimensions on the old firing pin hole and firing pin tip diameter? I will assume that my Recon bolt is the newer design since it was bought in 2015 and has the small notches on the body just behind the bolt lug cuts. The firing pin is .075 and the firing pin hole is .083 for a difference of .008. |
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Purchased last Sat. 02/07/2016. (The dealer said he'd just received it the day prior)
My bolt looks like the old style from the earlier pictures in thread. Go figure. I guess we know what DPMS did with all the old parts left over from 2014? Firing pin tip: .075" Firing pin hole: .087-.088" -ish (best I can get with regular dial calipers) Not sure what the DG3 is about. Is that unique to old the old bolt, or do the new ones have it as well? 
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Purchased last Sat. 02/07/2016. (The dealer said he'd just received it the day prior) My bolt looks like the old style from the earlier pictures in thread. Go figure. I guess we know what DPMS did with all the old parts left over from 2014? Firing pin tip: .075" Firing pin hole: .087-.088" -ish (best I can get with regular dial calipers) Not sure what the DG3 is about. Is that unique to old the old bolt, or do the new ones have it as well? http://www.kirkwheeler.com/pics/G2-Bolt.jpg Mine has the DG3 markings as well. |
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A firing pin aperture that is in the .080" + region will not support primers well, and you will get a lot of flow. You really want a .068" or less firing pin aperture for higher pressure loads. Who knows what or when DPMS made changes. Sounds like they still don't have it right. LRRPF52- Thanks for the reply. |
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Look at the gas system length on the Garand and M1A, then look at the ammunition you're shooting. M80 7.62 NATO was meant to run in gas system lengths like the M14 and AR10 have, not the MLGS GII, so port pressure is higher. Carrier mass is also lower, so extraction appears to be violent and abusive. You can get adjustable gas, or add buffer weight to increase lock time, which will allow case obturation to rebound back to a more pleasant condition. Your "carrier mass" observation makes sense. My Armalite AR10 .308's in 20" and 16" barrels show no aggressive treatment of the brass even with some "warm" loads. The 20" obviously has rifle gas and the 16" has mid-length gas. The AR10 BCG is an anvil, and I'm sure this helps in taming lock time and extraction. In fact, the only difference in brass treatment I notice between a bolt .308 and my AR10's is the slightly more noticeable extraction mark on the rim which is logical. The benefit of a lighter weight .308 AR seems to come with a balancing act needed for a very precise gas and buffer tuning. |
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Called the place they had me send it to this morning. The gunsmith had looked it over and ordered a "new style" bolt from DPMS. No ETA on when they will actually get it though.
I really wish DMPS would have just sent me a new bolt. I can check the HS myself. Probably too many lawyers for them to do something like that. |
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Called the place they had me send it to this morning. The gunsmith had looked it over and ordered a "new style" bolt from DPMS. No ETA on when they will actually get it though. I really wish DMPS would have just sent me a new bolt. I can check the HS myself. Probably too many lawyers for them to do something like that. All you would need to do would be measure your bolt face depth and lug lengths. They also might want to check the headspace on that rifle though. I'm not seeing any indications of excessive headspace, from looking at the roundness of the primers on the edges. You just have a lot of primer flow into the firing pin aperture due to lack of support. The Accuracy International bolts guns were like that too for reliability. |
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Over 2.5 months and still nothing.
DPMS still hasn't sent them the new bolt to Alhlmans. I called DPMS and the guy I talked to said he had no idea when they'd be able to send the part. I asked him who I could talk to who would know and his response was that he could get me a couple of other numbers, but their response would be exactly the same. So, my takeaway is that no one at DPMS > BUSHMASTER > REMINGTON > FREEDOM GROUP has any idea of what they are doing in their business. I'm sure that's not true, but undoubtedly there's typical big company crap going on. Waiting on something that should have been right in the first place is kind of annoying, but the thing that is starting to get me fired up, is that no one can give me an answer (or even an estimate) on when the part is going to be available. |
| Bummer that you somehow received an old stock rifle without the proper updates. They need to make it right quickly. I've had my G2 308 for two weeks now and it is such a great shooter. I've been using the metal mag that came with it and no problems of any kind. I'm a reloader, so, fired brass condition is important to me and when I saw your issues I checked out a good sample of the 200+ I've fired in my G2. They are a mix of Fed GMM, Lapua, Black Hills Match, and mil. I'm happy to report that it is not beating up the brass at all and I ran a good sample through my Dillon case gauge and they went in and out without force. I like mine better than any semi 308 I've owned. I'll be watching to see how your issue get resolved. Regards |
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Bummer that you somehow received an old stock rifle without the proper updates. They need to make it right quickly. I've had my G2 308 for two weeks now and it is such a great shooter. I've been using the metal mag that came with it and no problems of any kind. I'm a reloader, so, fired brass condition is important to me and when I saw your issues I checked out a good sample of the 200+ I've fired in my G2. They are a mix of Fed GMM, Lapua, Black Hills Match, and mil. I'm happy to report that it is not beating up the brass at all and I ran a good sample through my Dillon case gauge and they went in and out without force. I like mine better than any semi 308 I've owned. I'll be watching to see how your issue get resolved. Regards Which G2 did you get? |
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Shit flows downhill.
Alhlmans has your rifle. It has not been repaired. You are not satisfied and your pier group at this forum are disgusted. Have Alhlmans Bitch for the part or send the rifle back. The current situation is NOT acceptable. If the manufacturer is not answering to the consumer, make them answer to the industrial partners. If they fail the partners make sure the partners realize the position they are in is untenable. I want your rifle FIXED to your satisfaction. If this is not achieved how am I to expect to be treated any better. I want one of these rifles, but, not if it is one of the TYPICAL Remington orphans. It is not like that company is know for the support of its products. Small frame varients are finally entering the market. I would like to support the company which did the research and development, but, if they are unresponsive, well, I am a firm believer in MARKET forces, companies ignore the consumer to their peril. I hope your rifle is repaired and returned immediately. Feel free to link to this thread, if it will help with the return of your rifle. DB |
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Call Adam Arms. Their small frame bolt is just enough different it might be made in house. If so, perhaps you can send your upper there and have it mated to one of their new bolts. Maten or Pof might also be able to help. But, I expect this would be very expensive and I do not beleive you should have to bear such expense. It should be covered by product support.
Keep us informed and feel free to express yourself. Tell us how you feel. It can not hurt. DB |
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Thanks for the support. I posted over here: in hopes of getting a response from DPMS. I also had a gentleman from this thread send me an email for someone inside DPMS. I'll be contacting them as well.
I'm hopeful I'll get this resolved, but this kind of crap is why I didn't buy a M&P 10 a couple of years ago. This is my first, and probably last DPMS purchase. |
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Quoted:
Look at the gas system length on the Garand and M1A, then look at the ammunition you're shooting. M80 7.62 NATO was meant to run in gas system lengths like the M14 and AR10 have, not the MLGS GII, so port pressure is higher. Carrier mass is also lower, so extraction appears to be violent and abusive. You can get adjustable gas, or add buffer weight to increase lock time, which will allow case obturation to rebound back to a more pleasant condition. Good info. Another variable to consider: Bolt Carrier gas holes. Some have THREE further to the rear (away form the bolt) others have TWO closer to the bolt. Google image KAC SR-25, LaRue OBR versus stock DPMS. ~Will |
| I'm glad that this has been resolved at last. It took way to long and was no way to treat someone who was sold product that should have been recalled from dealer inventory. My 308 G2 is still flawless, and I like it better than any semi 308 I've owned. Perhaps DPMS will direct you to a dealer with verified current production rifles as I do believe that you will be pleased. Regards |
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That's a shame. I'm no DPMS fan, but I'd really like to see this lighter platform finally get out of the gate with full reliability. Who doesn't want a lighter .308 AR. Just as LRRP pointed out, and I added my much less informed 2-cents, I'm suspicious about the ultimate success of any really lightweight .308 semiauto rifle...putting aside a no-holes-barred wallet using exotic materials. The firing pin aperture issue seems solvable, but the carrier mass and chassis robustness may be the weak link in the pursuit. .308 obviously isn't in the same punishing ballpark as the .50-BMG, but it apparently has enough "umph" to require some notable material bulk and strength increases in construction to provide total reliability in an affordable platform. I notice Desert Tech is introducing a new bullpup rifle that allegedly will offer a 5.56 and .308 based off the same platform which will obviously provide a lighter .308 bullpup. However, I wonder if their extended manufacturing delays may be due to the difficult balancing act of trying to produce a decently light 5.56 that uses the same platform in .308. Again, I think it may be difficult to produce a totally reliable .308 semiauto in a truly affordable package.
The DPMS LR308, my Armalite AR10's, and others have proven that you can have a relatively bulletproof .308 AR in a relatively affordable package, but they all have one thing in common...weight. |
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They actually called back yesterday after I'd posted. They are pulling a replacement rifle off the build line and rush shipping it to me. Even better. DPMS is a good company to work with, and although you got a lemon, not every rifle is. They took care of you. You should like the rifle you receive. You still may want to get a heavier buffer from heavybuffers.com. Most every DPMS .308 requires one. |
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Ok.. so that was almost a month ago and still no replacement rifle. ...And no refund.
Here the most outstanding part. The gun smith that had the original rifle finally got the new bolt and touched up the chamber, i.e. fixed the rifle, and sent me a FedEX tracking number. BUT, then they figured out that they were supposed to destroy that serial number since it was being replaced and recalled the shipment. The person I've been dealing with at DPMS seems to be trying, but still... here I sit. |
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Ok.. so that was almost a month ago and still no replacement rifle. ...And no refund. Here the most outstanding part. The gun smith that had the original rifle finally got the new bolt and touched up the chamber, i.e. fixed the rifle, and sent me a FedEX tracking number. BUT, then they figured out that they were supposed to destroy that serial number since it was being replaced and recalled the shipment. The person I've been dealing with at DPMS seems to be trying, but still... here I sit. Yay Freedom Group! |
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What exactly was your problem again? I read the thread over, and it still isn't clear to me. Quoted:
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They actually called back yesterday after I'd posted. They are pulling a replacement rifle off the build line and rush shipping it to me. Even better. What exactly was your problem again? I read the thread over, and it still isn't clear to me. It's in a thread in the DPMS GII forum. It appears he got one with the firing pin hole oversize. |
| Hey I just came across this thread. I had been torn between the tried and true M1A and the DPMS G2 but finally decided on the G2. I really like the G2 but it appears DPMS customer service sucks. I have my money saved up and I'm ready to buy but this has thrown a monkey wrench in my plans and that money is burning a hole in my pocket. I'm thinking I may just throw in the towel and go with the M1A. Did DPMS ever make this right? I hope so, I really am leaning towards that G2. |
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What exactly was your problem again? I read the thread over, and it still isn't clear to me. Quoted:
What exactly was your problem again? I read the thread over, and it still isn't clear to me. Bolt and chamber were both out of spec was what the lady on the phone from Ahlmans said their gunsmith had in the notes. They ordered a replacement bolt and "touched up" the chamber before they realized they were supposed to destroy the serial number. Quoted:
Hey I just came across this thread. I had been torn between the tried and true M1A and the DPMS G2 but finally decided on the G2. I really like the G2 but it appears DPMS customer service sucks. I have my money saved up and I'm ready to buy but this has thrown a monkey wrench in my plans and that money is burning a hole in my pocket. I'm thinking I may just throw in the towel and go with the M1A. Did DPMS ever make this right? I hope so, I really am leaning towards that G2. I'm... Still... Waiting... ...with no ETA on the replacement. No one seems to know anything and it's pretty frustrating. I've dealt with Marlin and Springfield regarding firearms that needed to be sent back before and both times the situation was handled very quickly and they actually went above and beyond to make sure the repair was correct and I was satisfied. This whole situation with this rifle is not good. I will say that they main person I've been talking to at DPMS/Freedom group seems like a nice guy and seems to be trying. But I'm still sitting on a $1,400 expenditure and don't have a rifle to show for it. At least I still have my M1a. And it still works! |
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Freedom Group = Freedom Goatrope?
I can't help but wonder if maybe it was an older rifle returned on warranty in the past that somehow made it back out into the wild. Gun store employees swapping parts is a possibility. That said - no excuse for DPMS to have it this long. I don't purchase many brand new firearms any more - but if I did in the future I would go through Atlantic Firearms. This situation would have been resolved months ago. |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - G2 Recon - brass (Page 1 of 2)
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