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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Autoloading Bear Gun (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 6/8/2014 1:45:38 PM EDT
| Hello, got a customer that wants a bear gun to replace his .45/70 lever gun with an AR15 or AR10 in a hard hitting, compact package, that is reliable for self defense from brown bears, he lives in alaska. Any and all suggestions are welcome! thanks |
| How bout the 458 SOCOM. Uses same bullets and some of the same powder as 45/70. Many call it the AR15 version of the 45/70. I picked one up and liked the bigbore so muck I bought a 45/70 and another 458 SOCOM. Here is an Alaskan who picked one up just for that purpose. His story http://458socomforums.com/index.php?topic=1843.0 Also that website is a great source of information about the 458. |
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The .450 Bushmaster is also another option with similar ballistics to the 45/70 for the AR-15 platform.
The .50 Beowulf from Alexander Arms is another possible option to consider for the AR-15 platform. The .45 Raptor is a "new" development for the AR-10/LR-308 large frame platform, It uses .308 Winchester parent brass and .460 S&W Magnum dies... Accuracy Systems Inc., has the .450 Marlin round for AR-10/LR-308 platforms, another hard hitting big bore for the AR-10/LR-308 platform. The .458 SOCOM is probably the lowest cost to buy/build and probably has the most Industry support for the big bore right now, I also like it due to the bottleneck case which tends to add to reliability and has been around for a while...JMHO. Just keep in mind many of these rounds "max out" at about 200 yards accuracy/effective range, etc. This is due mostly to them using pistol caliber projectiles with low BC's Good Luck. http://www.ar-10-rifles.com/index.php |
| .458 SOCOM. From the get-go it was designed to be a semi-auto .45-70. It almost equals hot loads in the .45-70 with bullets under 400 gr. and is not too shabby with 500s. The SOCOM can push 300s to between 1700 and 1850 fps and 500s to around 1300 fps, with real .458 diameter bullets available almost anywhere that sells reloading supplies. |
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Give the guys over at Tromix a call. They make a mean 458 barrel and bolt . That will be all you need to convert. Maybe adjust the feedlips on the mags . Yes they do. Just finished putting this one together tonight, using a Tromix barrel and bolt. It is my first Socom. I haven't weighed it yet, but my guess is it comes in under 6 lbs. Should kill on both ends 
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Mine in the process. Top is my first 458. RRA Carbine. Bottom is Tromix 10.5" barrel bolt gasblock and brake. spikes lower Sig brace CMMG lower parts kit.
Finished with RRA stripped upper, MI gen 2 SS handguard, NIB bolt carrier, Vector Red/Green Dot scope. 
Just over 26" long total. Have not weighed it yet. It functioned fine with one test round. Have not taken it to the range yet. 
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That's easy, a .50 Beowulf. The ammo is very affordable compared to standard "large critter ammo" in other calibers. People argue that there are more bullet selections for other calibers but that doesn't matter. There are a lot of bullets available for the the .50 and you aren't going to use that many anyway. I would say any of the big bore AR's would work but if I'm going to pick one over the other for grizzlies, I'm picking the biggest, baddest, most powerful cartridge and that is the .50 Beowulf. It's also why I chose the Beowulf myself, load it up with the solid Spitzer rounds and you drop a Mastadon in it's tracks. The ammo is the most powerful and is very affordable compared to the others and is still cheaper than buying traditional big game cartridges, check it out.
This is the exact gun I'm carrying in the OP's scenario. Mine has a King Armory KA-0450 muzzle brake, Daniel Defense free float Omega rail, Magpul CTR stock with LimbSaver and Leupold VX-R Hog 1.25-4x20 with FireDot in a Burris PEPR mount. There's no bear around going to get past one reasonably placed shot from one of these. 
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| Thanks, great responses, this is not going to be long range, this gun is mostly intended for mama brown bear that is coming at you like quarter horse and needs to be put down with some authority. I was thinking the .458 SOCOM off the bat, but then i saw the .450 bushmaster, then .50 beowulf, but i don't really want to start that debate but are they basically the big three in this conversation?. This guy does not reload, so he is going to be wanting the most selection in commercially available ammo, he works on the oil rigs, so money is not an issue. Basically bottom line, is he want something that can put a lot of big lead, and put something down very fast and very close range. He also carries a .460 S&W sidearm so he is use to recoil. |
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Right now there is limited factory ammo available for the socom. Southern Ballistics Reasearch (SBR) has a great selection when in stock. There are a couple others loading for it, Corbon being one as long as they got their loads down. There are a few loads available for testing 450 and beo but still not a bunch. If the 458 gets SAAMI approval the floodgates will be opened. Approval is a strong likelihood this summer.
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Give the guys over at Tromix a call. They make a mean 458 barrel and bolt . That will be all you need to convert. Maybe adjust the feedlips on the mags . You shouldn't need to adjust the feedlips on .458". That's generally required w/ .50" B & .450" B. If a stock upper is used, the ejection port must be widened. The dust cover should still work. |
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I would think that any of the "big 3" would work, I made my decision based on the most power/size and the ammo available plus I've dealt with Alexander Arms before and they have excellent customer service (Bill Alexander himself has personally helped me a couple times, can't beat that for customer service). I've had no problems with magazines and have used standard AR15 mags with no modification plus ammo has been easy to find locally. There might be more bullet choices for the others but I don't need 30 different choices when I'm only going to use 3-4 max and I have way more than that to choose from, there is no advantage.
Some people like the Bushmaster others like the SOCOM and others the Beowulf. I have no doubt all three would kill a charging grizzly and there are more than enough bullet selections for all three and everything else is pretty much equal so it just comes down to whichever the buyer prefers. I'm an AA fan but Tromix has a great reputation and I wouldn't hesitate dealing with them. |
| my first experience with alexander arms has been anything but great customer service quite the contrary. In the end I got my upper repaired and finally had a chance to shoot the wulf . I took it and my 458 socom to the range yesterday both went bang when I pulled the trigger I used lancer mags for both and both operated 100% . they both also rocked the back stop and made a huge cloud of dust behind the backstop . I have had my 458 socom for 7 years and put many rounds down range and through some deer I would not hesitate to pull the trigger on anything walking this continent . yesterday was a good day with the 50 beowulf so far I like it time will tell if I like it as much as the socom . I do like the fact the local black rifle store keeps 50 beowulf ammo in stock all the time . 32.00 per box is certainly not the price a person wants to pay for plinking ammo but for hunting ammo its not bad . |
| I think i will guide him towards the .458 socom, he will like the comparison with the 45/70. Also i wont shoot you, does the .308 have the stop you in your tracks, put you on your ass instantly capabilities of the "big 3"? honest question, i honestly don't know. Also i think he was really want portability, this will probably be a 12-16" upper |
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180gn going 2550fps
Muzzle Energy(ft-lbs) = 2,612.61 Muzzle Energy(joules) = 3,521.80 405 gn going 1550fps Muzzle Energy(ft-lbs) = 2,314.29 Muzzle Energy(joules) = 3,119.66 308 has an advantage in muzzle energy. Also is better at range. Now what the effect will be on the animal, not sure. Have never shot anything with a big bore. Did shoot 2 caribou with an 06. Did some pretty massive damage. Still, I like the big boys. A 308 in an AR10 can do the deal but not as compact as a 458 on an ar15 platform. |
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180gn going 2550fps Muzzle Energy(ft-lbs) = 2,612.61 Muzzle Energy(joules) = 3,521.80 405 gn going 1550fps Muzzle Energy(ft-lbs) = 2,314.29 Muzzle Energy(joules) = 3,119.66 308 has an advantage in muzzle energy. Also is better at range. Now what the effect will be on the animal, not sure. Have never shot anything with a big bore. Did shoot 2 caribou with an 06. Did some pretty massive damage. Still, I like the big boys. A 308 in an AR10 can do the deal but not as compact as a 458 on an ar15 platform. Penetration is more important than muzzle energy. While the 180 gr 308 bullet and 405 gr 458 bullets have similar sectional density values, the larger 405 gr 458 bullet driven slower will penetrate more than the faster 308 bullet. I'd have no problem shooting a bear with a heavily constructed 400-500 gr bullet from a 458 Socom. No way would I feel comfortable doing that with a 180 gr bullet from a 308. Even 300 Win mag is on the light side for the big bears. |
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Just curious, has anyone run cast bullets in any of the big bores? I've thought about getting a Socom some day, and hard cast bullets would really cut down on the cost of loading for this caliber. I already cast for 45-70 so I could use some of the same equipment. I do shoot cast in 300 Blackout and it works fine for subs. |
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Just curious, has anyone run cast bullets in any of the big bores? I've thought about getting a Socom some day, and hard cast bullets would really cut down on the cost of loading for this caliber. I already cast for 45-70 so I could use some of the same equipment. I do shoot cast in 300 Blackout and it works fine for subs. Yes you can run Cast through the 458. We are working on a pretty good deal right now purchasing cast bullets 500 at a time. You can always roll your own too. It is recommended that you use gas checks to help prevent the vaporizing of the lead. Keeps things a bit cleaner. |
| Browning BARs are excellent firearms, if you aren't stuck on the AR platform you may consider one of those. I own a .270 longtrac (newer model) and a 30-06 safari (older model) and have fired several other variations in 7mm rem mag and 338 win, and I know there is a 300 win mag as well. Every model I have fired does and excellent job mitigating recoil, definitely take a look. 4-5 rounds of any of those calibers in rapid succession would ruin pretty much anything's day quickly, plus you aren't super likely to get off more than 5 rounds anyway. |
| thats the thing, he probably won't be able to get 5 rounds off on big mama grizz. so those first 4 are going to have to count, a grizzly can out run a quarter horse in short distances, they don't like you any where near there cubs, in my opinion they are one thing i don't want to run across with out some protection. he just got back from a black tail hunt and two of their deer where taken by a big male grizzly. |
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Aren't those like $5/rnd? Quoted:
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338 Federal. AR10 platform 210gr Nosler Partition. Velocity 2630 Energy 3225 ft. lbs 200gr Trophy Copper. 2700/3237 Aren't those like $5/rnd? Does it matter in Brown Bear country? How much is your life worth? Closer to $2 a round. 210gr Nosler Partition 200gr Trophy Copper |
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450Bushmaster.... has already been SAAMI approved since.... 2008? Factory ammo can be typically had for $24.99 for 20 and IN STOCK (that's the biggest factor for non-reloaders) where are you finding it for 24.99 ? every where I look it runs from 28.00-38.00 per box. |
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Does it matter in Brown Bear country? How much is your life worth? Closer to $2 a round. 210gr Nosler Partition 200gr Trophy Copper Quoted:
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338 Federal. AR10 platform 210gr Nosler Partition. Velocity 2630 Energy 3225 ft. lbs 200gr Trophy Copper. 2700/3237 Aren't those like $5/rnd? Does it matter in Brown Bear country? How much is your life worth? Closer to $2 a round. 210gr Nosler Partition 200gr Trophy Copper I must have been thinking 338 Lapua...was "On Sale" for $87/20 rnd box... regular price was like $97 at a place I was at a while back. I about fell over. & I thought 300 WSM was expensive. |
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I came to post this, 338 ammo should be plentiful in AK, the big bore AR rounds not so much. Quoted:
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He should consider the Browning BAR in 338 Win Mag. I came to post this, 338 ammo should be plentiful in AK, the big bore AR rounds not so much. Yeah, the mag on my BAR was a pain to reload and I only got 4 shots before reload. I'd hate to reload a BAR with that swing-down plate while being charged by a bruin. |
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I can buy Beowulf ammo every day for $25/20....even the cheapest .50B 335 grain FMJ "plinking" ammo is plenty of medicine to drop a charging grizzly, however, I keep a few boxes of 350 grn brass spitzer ammo on hand should I need to stop a mastadon. The benefit of the brass spitzer ammo is that you can recover it from the bear, or behind the bear if you can find it, and use it again. There was a guy on one of the outdoor Channel shows who had had used one brass spitzer round 3 times and had it cleaned and ready for the fourth. Plus carrying around a 16" AR15 platform rifle is far lighter and easier to maneuver around quickly, like when a bear is charging you, than an AR10 platform rifle. Nothing against the AR10 platform, I want one someday, but there's a significant weight difference, even when dealing with newer generation rifles. Heck, "Beowulf" even means "wolf to bee's" in old English which means bear (apparently bears have loved honey from the beginning).
As far as the .45-70 link, from what I've read the Beowulf is the closest to modern .45-70 ballistics than either of the other two and does it with a significantly bigger bullet. If a bear is charging me I'd want the most power and biggest bullet, within reason, that I can. I have no doubt a .450 Bushmaster or a .458 SOCOM should be able to stop a bear, with the right ammo, but a .50 trumps a .45 or .458 right out of the box. I'm just being a fangirl, I know the other two are great calibers and would likely have no problems stopping a charging bear so no hate mail please LOL. There are just some jobs where the biggest hammer in the toolbox makes you feel better even if a smaller one would work. While I may be an AA and Beowulf/Grendel fangirl I always tell people that the "Big 3" are great calibers and will work on anything in North America so at least I'm an honest fangirl LOL. |
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Yeah, the mag on my BAR was a pain to reload and I only got 4 shots before reload. I'd hate to reload a BAR with that swing-down plate while being charged by a bruin. Quoted:
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He should consider the Browning BAR in 338 Win Mag. I came to post this, 338 ammo should be plentiful in AK, the big bore AR rounds not so much. Yeah, the mag on my BAR was a pain to reload and I only got 4 shots before reload. I'd hate to reload a BAR with that swing-down plate while being charged by a bruin. I'm not from Alaska but I've never heard of anyone getting more than one or two shots max at a charging bear so reloading or magazine capacity isn't an issue. You better have a fast, light but big @ss hammer at your disposal in such an event. I would definitely choose a Beowulf but there's no arguing the effectiveness of the BAR throughout history, I'd love to have one myself but I wouldn't want to carry it. I'm assuming modern BAR's have lightened up significantly. |
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I'm not from Alaska but I've never heard of anyone getting more than one or two shots max at a charging bear so reloading or magazine capacity isn't an issue. You better have a fast, light but big @ss hammer at your disposal in such an event. I would definitely choose a Beowulf but there's no arguing the effectiveness of the BAR throughout history, I'd love to have one myself but I wouldn't want to carry it. I'm assuming modern BAR's have lightened up significantly. Quoted:
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He should consider the Browning BAR in 338 Win Mag. I came to post this, 338 ammo should be plentiful in AK, the big bore AR rounds not so much. Yeah, the mag on my BAR was a pain to reload and I only got 4 shots before reload. I'd hate to reload a BAR with that swing-down plate while being charged by a bruin. I'm not from Alaska but I've never heard of anyone getting more than one or two shots max at a charging bear so reloading or magazine capacity isn't an issue. You better have a fast, light but big @ss hammer at your disposal in such an event. I would definitely choose a Beowulf but there's no arguing the effectiveness of the BAR throughout history, I'd love to have one myself but I wouldn't want to carry it. I'm assuming modern BAR's have lightened up significantly. M1918 <> modern day Browning Automatic Rifle. |
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This past spring we were out doing some trail clearing and shooting at our cabin. One of the guys parked his ATV about 100 yards from our cabin at the edge of the field, a black bear must have smelled the food within the cooler on the rack and started to tear apart the cooler and the ATV. We yelled at the bear and it reared up and charged from 80 yards or so, it was hit by 4 300blk rounds(110gr blacktips) in the chest and shoulder during it's charge, it didn't expire until after it ran into the side of the cabin. This blackie was rather scrawny as it was a long rough cold winter, it weighed about 275lb's.
So the moral of the story is a brownie is going to be a lot tougher to take down so you are going to need some impact umph,,, |
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This past spring we were out doing some trail clearing and shooting at our cabin. One of the guys parked his ATV about 100 yards from our cabin at the edge of the field, a black bear must have smelled the food within the cooler on the rack and started to tear apart the cooler and the ATV. We yelled at the bear and it reared up and charged from 80 yards or so, it was hit by 4 300blk rounds(110gr blacktips) in the chest and shoulder during it's charge, it didn't expire until after it ran into the side of the cabin. This blackie was rather scrawny as it was a long rough cold winter, it weighed about 275lb's. So the moral of the story is a brownie is going to be a lot tougher to take down so you are going to need some impact umph,,, Yup, love my 300 BO, but want something a bit larger if a bear is in the story. 50 Beo is my thumper, but certainly would feel comfortable with any of the big 3. Although I would prefer a solid bullet in bear country. Those 325 gr HP's are quite comforting in most situations, but would prefer a 400+ solid for bad boys. Doc |
| Thanks everybody for the great replys! i thought i was set on the .458 socom, but you guys seem to be pushing the .50 now! ;), is the .458 just opening up ejection port or is there other must have mods? and do you have to do the same for the .50beo? Also of those two, which has better factory loadings for both plinking and taking down big game? i was originally thinking .450 bushy because of price beings he does not reload but they seem to only come in 250gn ftx IIRC. I don't think he will be plinking with this gun but if i give him a thumper and something he can plink with, then it would be best for both worlds. |
| I took a blackie with my 450B and wouldn't hesitate to use it again on a blackie or on a brownie, I wouldn't count it out by any means. And if you do not reload then I think of the big three there really isn't any choice, the 450B for ease of sourcing ammo and costs. |
The biggest advantage the 458 has is bullet selection. Regardless of what some will say, it is nice to have many options at your disposal. Some barrels just do not like certain bullets even in the same weight. The 450 and 50 are severely limited in that aspect. The 458 has the barnes 300gr TTSX which would be the bullet Id carry due to its low velocity expansion threshold and how much it expands. None of them are going to offer any appreciable difference in energy. It comes down to ammo cost and if you reload. For any of the big bores I highly recommend reloading not only to get cheaper ammo but to tweak the load in for optimum accuracy.
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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Autoloading Bear Gun (Page 1 of 2)
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