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Posted: 3/15/2012 9:30:40 PM EDT
[#1]
Quoted:
Interesting comments... I might not know as much about terminal ballistics as some of you seem to, but the .300 BLK is very versatile as it can do the same job as well or better than suppressed MP5's, 5.56 mm SBR's, and AK47's. External and terminal ballistics are equal to or better than the well proven 7.62x39mm. With barrier blind projectiles, 300 BLK is an ideal caliber for both Patrol and Tactical LE use, as it offers outstanding terminal performance and intermediate barrier capability in the critical 0-100m range and remains capable out to 300m or so. With the advent of barrier blind loads like the Barnes 110 gr Tac-TX and upcoming bonded loads like the Rem CLUB, the .300 BLK becomes an outstanding choice for hunting up to med game and can be used in any hunting situation that is appropriate for lighter .30-30 loads. The problem is that many people don't understand the depth of your knowledge base, and will ignore your words because they don't agree with their own views. Hopefully some people will read it twice, and get a better understanding. |
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Posted: 3/17/2012 4:58:47 PM EDT
[#2]
Quoted:
Regarding the first post, the 7.62x39 is not 300 fps faster than the 300 BLK unless comparing an 8" barrel 300 BLK to a 24" barrel 7.62x39. Please check your sources. Here is my quick list of possible 300 BLK advantages over the competition: Replace one (1) Part (the barrel) to change calibers on an AR or Bolt Action You don't have to buy a new magazine collection to swap calibers Brass is made from readily available .223/5.56 Bullets are the commonly available .308 caliber from 110 to 240 grains Typically better accuracy/performance compared to common sub-gun calibers with the option of going to medium range distances effectively Ability to shoot subsonic safely without variable gas system Ballistics similar to a 7.62x39 when using the same barrel length Legal hunting caliber for medium game (vs .223 in some states) Hodgdon shows about 2100 fps for the 300 Blackout with 125 gr slugs. My Ruger Mini 30 chronographs at 2400+ with Fiocchi ammo. That's 300 fps. Don |
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Posted: 3/20/2012 11:37:20 AM EDT
[#3]
This isn't that complicated: More choices = better than less choices. And, everything's a tradeoff.
The ONLY thing that's really missed here by nearly everyone, it seems, is the fact the real issue is the "none of the above choice". It's just the "wrong question"..... The issue of how much better the .338 spectre is than either. And why oh why isn't *IT* the one talked about, made, and thus would have caught on bigtime, as I would have hoped (making everything surrounding it cheaper), as THE subsonic suppressed SBR AR15 round, rather than .300 BLK? Why doesn't the industry back the superior choice for this specific role? We can hope they eventually still will at some point, I suppose.... Using the same subsonic speeds (1,110 fps), you have a bigger, longer bullet in the .338 spectre, and unlike .308s, .338s hit one of the "sweet spot"s for BC (much like 6.5 and 7mm bullets do in another place along the caliber spectrum). The BC of 300 gr SMKs for example, is significantly better than its .30 cal counterparts (unless something has changed in the last few years since I looked at it). So, which would you rather have in a supressed, SBR'ed (and hopefully select-fire too, but either way...) AR15: A round that sends out a 180-220 gr bullet with a poorer BC, at 1100 fps, or a round that sends out a 250-300 gr bullet with a better BC, and better sectional density, at that SAME speed? The better SD and weight combine make for massively better penetration, and the better BC make for less range estimation error, and wind drift estimation error, extending your effective range. Recoil difference negligible. Yeah, you need a 1 in 6.5 twist for the 300s, but no problem there. A heavy duty 9mm can would actually probably work BETTER with .338 spectre than with .300 blk/whisper because of less gap on the way out. The only drawback is bullet and brass cost: http://www.teppojutsu.com/338.htm Maybe I'm missing something... Sure, I can see the .300 blk as superior than .338 spectre *IF* –– and only if –– you're actually going to use it for supersonic (either solely or primarily). But why would you do that? .300 RAR is better for that, and for that matter, 6.8 is better than any .308s for that - much better in fact. So for it's actual role of suppressed/subsonic/SBR, the .338 spectre is what SHOULD catch on.... why it doesn't, well maybe someone can enlighten me... (I guess maybe it comes down to that "just one gun" idea - ultimate extreme versatility, and the .300 blk hits the sweet spot there (??) - maybe; kinda makes sense. Problem with that is, we just ain't limited to one, so why? If you're on Arfcom, I guaratee you that you ain't got "just one" rifle. :) Or maybe it's the brass issue; that's more likely.) The .500 Phantom is the ultimate here, with BCs up in the .8 and .9 range, but that's a different subject than the one at hand, as it fits into an AR10 style, but not AR15 style. P.S. I'm building my .338 spectre on a turnbolt, however, not an AR.... if I can't have select-fire, too (which I can't - save SSAR15 unit quasi-select-fire), then I'd rather have the lighter weight and even less noise (no action cycling) that a turnbolt gives you. 8 or 10" 1 in 6.5 bbl, savage action, threaded/suppressed of course.... what's the heaviest-duty 9mm can on the market that could handle the extra powder/gas of the .338 spectre at subsonic? Be sure to watch the video at teppo jutsu of the full auto suppressed .338 - I dare you to watch it and not drool and vow to have one someday... :) As far as use beyond fun or poaching..... Well, even if not a single state makes hunting with cans legal, you've still got an actual use other than illegal hunting, potentially.... If the ess hits the proverbial eff, well, you just might need a stealth assassination mission capable weapon. And you ain't gonna wanna leave brass lying around if you do (hence the turnbolt making more sense). Ess hitting the Eff situation is of course, extremely unlikely for an extended period, such as an illegal occupation that would necessitate such missions - but it's not entirely out of the question. Or is it? :) |
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Posted: 3/20/2012 11:51:38 AM EDT
[#4]
Quoted:
This isn't that complicated: More choices = better than less choices. And, everything's a tradeoff. The ONLY thing that's really missed here by nearly everyone, it seems, is the fact the real issue is the "none of the above choice" - the issue of how much better the .338 spectre is than either. And why oh why isn't *IT* the one talked about, made, and thus would have caught on bigtime, as I would have hoped (making everything surrounding it cheaper), as THE subsonic suppressed SBR AR15 round, rather than .300 BLK? Why doesn't the industry back the superior choice for this specific role? We can hope they eventually still will at some point, I suppose.... Using the same subsonic speeds (1,110 fps), you have a bigger, longer bullet in the .338 spectre, and unlike .308s, .338s hit one of the "sweet spot"s for BC (much like 6.5 and 7mm bullets do in another place along the caliber spectrum). The BC of 300 gr SMKs for example, is significantly better than its .30 cal counterparts (unless something has changed in the last few years since I looked at it). So, which would you rather have in a supressed, SBR'ed (and hopefully select-fire too, but either way...) AR15: A round that sends out a 180-220 gr bullet with a poorer BC, at 1100 fps, or a round that sends out a 250-300 gr bullet with a better BC, and better sectional density, at that SAME speed? The better SD and weight combine make for massively better penetration, and the better BC make for less range estimation error, and wind drift estimation error, extending your effective range. Recoil difference negligible. Yeah, you need a 1 in 6.5 twist for the 300s, but no problem there. A heavy duty 9mm can would actually probably work BETTER with .338 spectre than with .300 blk/whisper because of less gap on the way out. The only drawback is bullet and brass cost: http://www.teppojutsu.com/338.htm Maybe I'm missing something... Sure, I can see the .300 blk as superior *IF* and only if you're actually going to use it for supersonic. But why would you do that? .300 RAR is better for that, and for that matter, 6.8 is better than any .308s for that. So for it's actual role of suppressed/subsonic/SBR, the .338 spectre is what SHOULD catch on.... why it doesn't, well maybe someone can enlighten me... The .500 Phantom is the ultimate here, with BCs up in the .8 and .9 range, but that's a different subject than the one at hand, as it fits into an AR10 style, but not AR15 style. Just go to a 357 bullet in a modified 223 shell (I'm sure this has been done). Cheap, plentiful bullets that expand at subsonic velocities. As for better BC at subsonic speeds increasing BC gets you very little improvement since these are all dropping like a rock. Does it really matter if it drops 35 vs 38 inches at 200 yards when zeroed at 100 yards? (That's the difference between a BC of 0.3 vs 0.6) |
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Posted: 3/20/2012 12:06:12 PM EDT
[#5]
"Just go to a 357 bullet in a modified 223 shell (I'm sure this has been done). Cheap, plentiful bullets that expand at subsonic velocities."
No, sir, not really a good idea, in keeping with this role: Those bullets you mention are .357 pistol bullets with horrid BCs, far worse than .308s, let alone the superior .338s. And .35 Whelen / .35 Rem bullets are better but still not great, although to that extent, yes, there is that, so you make a good point. But even taking that into account, at least .338 spectre has a *foothold* - it has a start with the Teppo Jutsu folks, to build on, unlike any kind of .221/.35 which would have to be started from scratch, so it's 100 times more realistic for some big name to jump on and get behind. You cannot discount the huge role of BC, which brings me to... "As for better BC at subsonic speeds increasing BC gets you very little improvement since these are all dropping like a rock. Does it really matter if it drops 35 vs 38 inches at 200 yards when zeroed at 100 yards? (That's the difference between a BC of 0.3 vs 0.6)" Yes, sir. I'm glad you asked. It makes a tremendously huge difference. BC is everything when you cannot control the OTHER factor (vel), since limited by subsonic. Wind drift estimation error and range estimation error become far far MORE important to minimize at say, 200 yards, when you're *already* handicapped by low vel. With a 15 mph crosswind, the superior BC of the .338s could *easily* make the difference between hit and miss of a precise target (head shot or rabbit let's say) with a slight error of estimation/dope (say you estimate at 10 or 20 rather than 15). And the difference between a one shot hit and miss... well you know what that means... a smile on your face or not at the range. Potentially life or death in some theoretical scenarios. As far as dropping like a rock. Yes and No. Mostly no. When a bullet starts off slow, as with subsonic, the wind makes logarithmically less effect on it than starting off fast, so the BC becomes far more important, particularly at short and mid ranges than a bullet starting off fast - it can really retain it's oomph for a long ways. Calculate a 200 gr .357 mag bullet at 300 yards drop and 10mph xwind drift, versus a .750 BC sierra match king (300) grain, and report back.. please. ;) Bottom line, you ain't hittin nuttin past 300 with any of these rounds (200 gr .357 mag pistol bullet or the ones discussed). You're hittin everything at 100 yards with ease (just like 9mm suppressed). But that critical in-between of 100-300, you're hitting a LOT more in wind with high BC bullets - and the higher the better - that's where the .338 really shines over anything (among those that fit into an AR15 platform). One good question I just asked myself that you remind me of is "if you're building a turnbolt, why not use .500 phantom." Answer to that comes down to insane bullet price. .338 bullets are more expensive than .308s to be sure.... but they're not off the chain like .50 BMG bullets. .338 is where it's at - it's the sweet spot, particularly for AR platform, in terms of cost, external bal. peformance, terminal bal. perf., BC-optimization, etc., for this role, seems to me. At least, all available evidence points to this conclusion. Only thing it ain't got, other than momentum is brass - and that's a vicious cycle of course... chicken and egg thing... price wont come down til someone makes it, and no one makes it until it catches on, and it won't catch on until...... It just needs a big name to throw some money/effort at it and promote it. Teppo just doesn't have the influence needed, evidently.... As always, YMMV. **P.S. I mean, lookit, if the BC and SD gains acquired from a longer bullet didn't mean anything, then .300 blk and similar wouldn't have any raison d'etre because it wouldn't do anything the 9mm can't do. Understand, seven five zero is the .338 300 SMK BC under 1800 fps. http://www.sierrabullets.com/index.cfm?section=bullets&page=bc&stock_num=2675&bullettype=0 |
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Posted: 3/20/2012 2:14:01 PM EDT
[#6]
Quoted: Calculate a 200 gr .357 mag bullet at 300 yards drop and 10mph xwind "Just go to a 357 bullet in a modified 223 shell (I'm sure this has been done). Cheap, plentiful bullets that expand at subsonic velocities." No, sir, not really a good idea, in keeping with this role: Those bullets you mention are .357 pistol bullets with horrid BCs, far worse than .308s, let alone the superior .338s. And .35 Whelen / .35 Rem bullets are better but still not great, although to that extent, yes, there is that, so you make a good point. But even taking that into account, at least .338 spectre has a *foothold* - it has a start with the Teppo Jutsu folks, to build on, unlike any kind of .221/.35 which would have to be started from scratch, so it's 100 times more realistic for some big name to jump on and get behind. You cannot discount the huge role of BC, which brings me to... "As for better BC at subsonic speeds increasing BC gets you very little improvement since these are all dropping like a rock. Does it really matter if it drops 35 vs 38 inches at 200 yards when zeroed at 100 yards? (That's the difference between a BC of 0.3 vs 0.6)" Yes, sir. I'm glad you asked. It makes a tremendously huge difference. BC is everything when you cannot control the OTHER factor (vel), since limited by subsonic. Wind drift estimation error and range estimation error become far far MORE important to minimize at say, 200 yards, when you're *already* handicapped by low vel. With a 15 mph crosswind, the superior BC of the .338s could *easily* make the difference between hit and miss of a precise target (head shot or rabbit let's say) with a slight error of estimation/dope (say you estimate at 10 or 20 rather than 15). And the difference between a one shot hit and miss... well you know what that means... a smile on your face or not at the range. Potentially life or death in some theoretical scenarios. As far as dropping like a rock. Yes and No. Mostly no. When a bullet starts off slow, as with subsonic, the wind makes logarithmically less effect on it than starting off fast, so the BC becomes far more important, particularly at short and mid ranges than a bullet starting off fast - it can really retain it's oomph for a long ways. Calculate a 200 gr .357 mag bullet at 300 yards drop and 10mph xwind drift, versus a .750 BC sierra match king (300) grain, and report back.. please. ;) Bottom line, you ain't hittin nuttin past 300 with any of these rounds (200 gr .357 mag pistol bullet or the ones discussed). You're hittin everything at 100 yards with ease (just like 9mm suppressed). But that critical in-between of 100-300, you're hitting a LOT more in wind with high BC bullets - and the higher the better - that's where the .338 really shines over anything (among those that fit into an AR15 platform). One good question I just asked myself that you remind me of is "if you're building a turnbolt, why not use .500 phantom." Answer to that comes down to insane bullet price. .338 bullets are more expensive than .308s to be sure.... but they're not off the chain like .50 BMG bullets. .338 is where it's at - it's the sweet spot, particularly for AR platform, in terms of cost, external bal. peformance, terminal bal. perf., BC-optimization, etc., for this role, seems to me. At least, all available evidence points to this conclusion. Only thing it ain't got, other than momentum is brass - and that's a vicious cycle of course... chicken and egg thing... price wont come down til someone makes it, and no one makes it until it catches on, and it won't catch on until...... It just needs a big name to throw some money/effort at it and promote it. Teppo just doesn't have the influence needed, evidently.... As always, YMMV. **P.S. I mean, lookit, if the BC and SD gains acquired from a longer bullet didn't mean anything, then .300 blk and similar wouldn't have any raison d'etre because it wouldn't do anything the 9mm can't do. Understand, seven five zero is the .338 300 SMK BC under 1800 fps. http://www.sierrabullets.com/index.cfm?section=bullets&page=bc&stock_num=2675&bullettype=0 drift, versus a .750 BC sierra match king (300) grain, and report back.. please. ;) Ok here you go data from here First the 357 http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmtraj_simp-5.1.cgi
Now the 338 http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmtraj_simp-5.1.cgi
So at 300 yards the 357 has dropped 126 in, drifted 19.4 in Data for the 338 , dropped 109 in, drifted 6.4 in You better be using a range finder if you want to hit a rabbit with either of those loads. If you are off by 20 yards in your estimate of range you miss with both. Like I said both are dropping like a stone and a high BC does not change that by much. If I can measure or very accurately estimate the distance at 300 yards I can hit with either round, under field conditions 300 yards shots with subsonic anything is a real challenge. |
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Posted: 4/22/2012 4:29:28 AM EDT
[#7]
Dangit I just ordered one of these but reading this gives me 2nd thoughts . I wanted a larger round for my second AR build was thinking ar10 but my buddy told me
about the 300 black and use with the troops and the cost , the versatility was plus as well as taking down some bigger game. I hope I made a good buy will see . Very good info fellas , very informative |
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