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Posted: 10/29/2010 3:59:24 PM EDT
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300-221 problems with ejection
–––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––– Wondered if some of you might be able to help. I have a 16" .300-221 upper, pistol length gas tube, 3-way gas block (High, Low, and Off). My handload 125 grain supersonic ammo, which works fine in my 8" .300-221 (same specs other than barrel length) is doing the following: 1 - It loads fine into battery, and I can hand-clear it - so the chamber/barrel isn't too tight 2 - It fires just fine. 3 - 90% of the time, though, it will not eject the spent case. It is stuck and I have to tap it out with a rod. The rim is slightly mangled from where the extractor tried to grab it and obviously yanked off some brass when it wouldn't budge. 4 - It doesn't try to strip and load a new cartridge, though. So, I assume this is a gas problem? Perhaps over-gassed - i.e. too much gas is getting into the system and before the bolt has a chance to work and pull out the spent case it causes the brass to expand and gets stuck in the chamber? I've tried it with all three settings - the High setting (which slightly restricts gas) does what is described above, the Low setting (which opens it up totally) really tears off a bit of rim, and of course doesn't eject, and the Off setting doesn't work the bolt at all, doesn't hurt the brass, but is very tough to tap out the brass. I'm thinking that maybe a JP adjustable (screw) gas block might do the trick since I can adjust it a lot more than the 3 settings I have right now. Could it be the pistol length gas tube is too short? Could it be gas block alignment, though that wouldn't make much sense if I'm overgassed. Or could it be something else? Buffer, buffer spring, etc.? |
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Sounds like a possible rough chamber that may need a little polish.
The brass expands after fired and is pressed into the chamber walls that may be rough enough to grip. If you turn the gas off and shoot like a bolt action will it extract or does the brass stick ? |
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Quoted:
What is your load and what length are you trimming your brass to ? What do your primers look like? Do you shoot subsonics ? If so how do they eject ? Loads: 125 gr Nosler Ballistic Tip 18.5 grains H110 powder CCI primer Brass is new/reformed bought from member here who advertises all the time for brass - made from .223, I believe. 2.04 OAL .333 at neck .360 at shoulder .373 at end The subsonics are the same except: 220 SMK BTHP 9.6 gr. H110 2.20 OAL Primers look fine. I haven't yet tried to fire the subsonics in the 16" - and I haven't fired supersonics in the 8" - I only use the 16" for supersonics and use the 8" for subsonics. The 8" has NO problems at all. |
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Quoted:
Sounds like a possible rough chamber that may need a little polish. The brass expands after fired and is pressed into the chamber walls that may be rough enough to grip. If you turn the gas off and shoot like a bolt action will it extract or does the brass stick ? No marks on the brass, but here's something new I just noticed. I decided to try and dry chamber and eject both the subsonic and supersonic rounds in the 16". While the chambered fine, they would NOT eject manually - I had to use a mallet on the charging handle to unstick the rounds from the chamber. So, I gave the dimensions of the cartridges I've loaded. If those are not out of spec, it appears my chamber is not right in the 16". What can be done about this? Any gunsmiths out there that can fix this problem? When I turn the gas off and shoot it, it will NOT extract - it sticks and is tough to get out, but at least the rim isn't ripped off! :) |
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Measure the length of an empty brass. If the brass is to long for your chamber you could have pressure issues which would give you the flatten primers. Most trim the brass to about 1.355 Brass is 1.358" There are a number of long scratches that go around the diameter of the shell case (say from 12 o'clock to 6 o'clock, starting just past the shoulder and ending about .12" before the rim - about 6 of them evenly spaced apart. No rifling marks at the ogive. |
| There is a good chance you are have converted mil surp brass. The thicker walls dont allow the shoulder to form as well as commercial or 221 FB brass. Try getting commerical 223 cases cut down. I have to sort my brass this way for my 2 whispers. My bolts gun takes it all, my AR needs the commercial. |
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There is a good chance you are have converted mil surp brass. The thicker walls dont allow the shoulder to form as well as commercial or 221 FB brass. Try getting commerical 223 cases cut down. I have to sort my brass this way for my 2 whispers. My bolts gun takes it all, my AR needs the commercial. Supposedly the brass is not milsurp converted, but who knows - I've been lied to before :( |
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It sounds like you have a chamber that is too tight. Since the 300-221 Fireball is a wildcat there are not specs for the chamber dimensions. Some chambers are cut to the original design that used 221 Fireball brass for making the brass. Expanding a 221 Fireball case to 30 cal results in a thin neck wall. Once 221 Fireball brass became harder to get, later chamber reamers were made to accommodate brass made from 223Rem cases.
This is problem is easily solved by re-cutting the chamber. However, given that the 300-221 Fireball a.k.a 300 whisper is now a SAMI standard, (called the AKC 300 Blackout) I would look into having your chamber reamed to the AKC 300 Blackout. I hope this helps 320pf Quoted:
Quoted:
There is a good chance you are have converted mil surp brass. The thicker walls dont allow the shoulder to form as well as commercial or 221 FB brass. Try getting commerical 223 cases cut down. I have to sort my brass this way for my 2 whispers. My bolts gun takes it all, my AR needs the commercial. Supposedly the brass is not milsurp converted, but who knows - I've been lied to before :( |
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Thanks, 320pf -would you know of or be able to recommend a smith who could do that?
Quoted:
It sounds like you have a chamber that is too tight. Since the 300-221 Fireball is a wildcat there are not specs for the chamber dimensions. Some chambers are cut to the original design that used 221 Fireball brass for making the brass. Expanding a 221 Fireball case to 30 cal results in a thin neck wall. Once 221 Fireball brass became harder to get, later chamber reamers were made to accommodate brass made from 223Rem cases. This is problem is easily solved by re-cutting the chamber. However, given that the 300-221 Fireball a.k.a 300 whisper is now a SAMI standard, (called the AKC 300 Blackout) I would look into having your chamber reamed to the AKC 300 Blackout. I hope this helps 320pf Quoted:
Quoted:
There is a good chance you are have converted mil surp brass. The thicker walls dont allow the shoulder to form as well as commercial or 221 FB brass. Try getting commerical 223 cases cut down. I have to sort my brass this way for my 2 whispers. My bolts gun takes it all, my AR needs the commercial. Supposedly the brass is not milsurp converted, but who knows - I've been lied to before :( |
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Quoted:
Thanks, 320pf -would you know of or be able to recommend a smith who could do that? Quoted:
It sounds like you have a chamber that is too tight. Since the 300-221 Fireball is a wildcat there are not specs for the chamber dimensions. Some chambers are cut to the original design that used 221 Fireball brass for making the brass. Expanding a 221 Fireball case to 30 cal results in a thin neck wall. Once 221 Fireball brass became harder to get, later chamber reamers were made to accommodate brass made from 223Rem cases. This is problem is easily solved by re-cutting the chamber. However, given that the 300-221 Fireball a.k.a 300 whisper is now a SAMI standard, (called the AKC 300 Blackout) I would look into having your chamber reamed to the AKC 300 Blackout. I hope this helps 320pf Quoted:
Quoted:
There is a good chance you are have converted mil surp brass. The thicker walls dont allow the shoulder to form as well as commercial or 221 FB brass. Try getting commerical 223 cases cut down. I have to sort my brass this way for my 2 whispers. My bolts gun takes it all, my AR needs the commercial. Supposedly the brass is not milsurp converted, but who knows - I've been lied to before :( American Kenel Club? JD probably thinks it's a dog  may have better luck searching on AAC.
Trying to use a pistol length system on a 16" barrel with 18.5 gr of H110 and a 125 sounds like a bad combination to me. thats very close to a max load in my carbine length gas system. But if you want to try the chamber re-reaming I belive Ronald Williams and a couple others here say they have ordered reamers. |
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LOL - yeah, it took me a while to do a search on that - :) I wonder if perhaps I should first reload something a lot less powerful first - what would you suggest as a starting load for a 125 grain supersonic with H110 powder? Also, I'm still confused as to why I'm not able to manually eject unfired cartridges (both sub and super) if the problem is my loads - seems to me that I should at least be able to do that - I still wonder about my chamber. |
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Sorry about the brain fart... As uptown pointed out, it is AAC not AKC .
As far a being able to shoot a 16 inch barrel with a gas port in the pistol position, uptown is correct in that for super sonic loads, the standard carbine gas port has a smoother extraction operation. However, you still should be able to shoot super sonic loads from your 16 inch barrel. I shoot a 16 inch Noveske barrel with a pistol position gas port and a Olympic Arm 16 inch barrel with their short gas port (the gas port for the Olympic barrel is about 0.5 closer to the breach than the standard pistol position). My most accurate load in both barrels is 19gn of W296 pushing a Speer 125 TNT. This is the maximum load listed in the Sierra manual. Both rifles will shoot 0.5-0.7 inch groups with this load and the brass looks no worse than a 223REM case shot from a standard 20 inch barreled AR. You are correct, if your chamber is cut correctly, your rifle should be able to eject unfired cases. Your rifle does not...So I suspect that your chamber is cut too tight. As far as getting your chamber fixed, as uptown pointed out Ronald Williams is a good place to start as is Marty at http://www.teppojutsu.com/ and TP555. Good luck 320pf Quoted:
LOL - yeah, it took me a while to do a search on that - :) I wonder if perhaps I should first reload something a lot less powerful first - what would you suggest as a starting load for a 125 grain supersonic with H110 powder? Also, I'm still confused as to why I'm not able to manually eject unfired cartridges (both sub and super) if the problem is my loads - seems to me that I should at least be able to do that - I still wonder about my chamber. |
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I shoot a 16 inch Noveske barrel with a pistol position gas port and a Olympic Arm 16 inch barrel with their short gas port (the gas port for the Olympic barrel is about 0.5 closer to the breach than the standard pistol position). My most accurate load in both barrels is 19gn of W296 pushing a Speer 125 TNT. This is the maximum load listed in the Sierra manual. Both rifles will shoot 0.5-0.7 inch groups with this load and the brass looks no worse than a 223REM case shot from a standard 20 inch barreled AR. Although burn charts show 296 and H110 close to each other they ain't the same, and react drastically different under pressure and ambient temperature. Not saying you can't shoot high pressure loads in a 16" / pistol . As you've been talking about shooting your Noveske and Olympic for the last few years, one would think you have at least a couple hundred rounds through each. The round count down the barrel has a significant impact on how it handles pressure, It's a bad rationalization that the OP should be able to run high pressure loads with his barrel just beacause it follows a similar layout. As far as the chamber being tight, if he can get it to fire and cycle with lower pressure loads it will go a long way to loosening everything up, I believe he's been told on more than this forum that his load is too steep. The 300-221 forming die creates a rounded shoulder that will jam in the chamber if the die is adjusted too far out. This isn't a new problem, all of my whispers, 300-221, 300 FB, 7.62x40, 7x40, and 6.8x40 will do it if the die is adjusted out too far. If you run out of adjustment on the die ( ram cams over against the die/shellholder) a piece of emery cloth and cutting oil can be used to faceoff the shellholder to pick up a few thousandths. The caveat is by getting die formed brass (rounded shoulder) to hand cycle, the die will need to be re-adjusted on fire-formed brass, sure it will work without re-adjusting the die but the datum point of the two pieces of brass will be in different places, and hand cycle different. The chamber can be bumped in a couple thousandths, but the deeper you make the chamber the more unsized portion around the casehead you will end up with. |
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Brass is new/reformed bought from member here who advertises all the time for brass - made from .223, I believe. 2.04 OAL .333 at neck .360 at shoulder .373 at end No marks on the brass, but here's something new I just noticed. I decided to try and dry chamber and eject both the subsonic and supersonic rounds in the 16". While the chambered fine, they would NOT eject manually - I had to use a mallet on the charging handle to unstick the rounds from the chamber. So, I gave the dimensions of the cartridges I've loaded. If those are not out of spec, it appears my chamber is not right in the 16". What can be done about this? Any gunsmiths out there that can fix this problem? When I turn the gas off and shoot it, it will NOT extract - it sticks and is tough to get out, but at least the rim isn't ripped off! :) What is the text on the bottom of your cases? (ie brass mfg?) What is your neck wall thickness? .333 at neck - this might be out of spec, Sierra reloading manual says ~ .344 here, but that would mean the neck wall thicknesses would need to be .016-.018 to meet that and I don't think you want to go there. But, maybe so, depending on what your chamber dim. at the neck is. .360 at shoulder is OK. .373 at end (base of cartridge above extraction groove?) - this should be .376. Who's dies are you using? You need to buy and use a few things: 1. Go-Gauge 2. No-Go-Gauge 3. Cerrosafe chamber casting material (use on both barrels). Oh, and no mallets/hammers on charging handles - I did that myself years ago starting out. A better method: remove magazine, place on SAFE, collapse the stock all the way closed, then, point barrel upward at 70-80 degrees and place right hand on charging handle. Raise gun butt 6" off ground or solid table, begin pulling back on charging handle and at same time do a light downward butt stroke - bolt should pop open. Repeat as needed. Obviously, do not allow barrel to point under any part of your head or body or anyone else's head-body. It takes more time to write this than it does to do safely. |
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OK, this just in - new information!
I decided to take some of the advice give. I cleaned the hell out of the chamber, used a drill/brass brush combo, cleaned, used a bunch of CLP on the carrier and bolt, cleaned everything very well, then did the drill/brass brush combo again. I loaded up a safe round (no primer) and full-length resized it, shell was 1.355 case length. Wiped off all case lube. Seated the bullet so that OAL was 2.10 Chambered it in my 8" first - NO PROBLEM. Well, it was a little (just a wee bit) "sticky" on extraction (I'm talking a slight resistance) but still it came out just fine, no scratched, no problems. Then I chambered it in my 16" (remember, I just totally cleaned it, etc.) Well, the round stuck. When I worked the charging handle no dice - so I did the POGO method and it pulled back but didn't grab and pull out the round. I had to really pound it out with a rod, and when the round popped out the bullet had found it's way into the brass shell - I assume this happened as I was pounding the round out with the rod. I tried a brand new, never fired shell - loaded it up the same way after full-length resizing, same measurements. This one wouldn't come out either, but when I did the pogo method of popping it out it came out and the bullet had not been pushed into the casing. I noticed numerous scratches, like lines, that ran the entire circumferunce of the neck from the opening of the neck to the shoulder - quite a few (over a dozen) all around the neck, evenly spaced. Pretty faint, but I could see them. Not really any marks on the bullet (the one that stayed in). There were a couple of faint, long scracthes on the body of the brass down to the rim. I tried the same thing with one of my 220 grain subsonics - worked fine in the 8", got stuck REALLY bad in the 16" - I had to really POGO that thing - still nothing - finally had to resort to a method I hate but have used in the past - a flathead screwdriver through the magwell to engage the underside of the bolt carrier and pop it loose with a hammer - yeah, I know, bad juju, but it was the only way to get it loose. That round also had the above markings, including a few more long scratches on the body and a few on the bullet. |
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