AR Sponsor
Posted: 4/25/2010 6:41:00 PM EDT
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i do alot of plinking and hunting at long distances, so Im lookin for a caliber known for superb accuracy in the ranges above 600 yards.it doesnt have to have the knockdown power to kill an elephant, but what caliber, grain, barrel twist or length. im not as concerned with the price of the upper as i am the cost of the round. If you cant afford to shoot it, its a very extravagant paperweight. I now have a .223 rem, 16" bull barrel upper and want to change for longer reachin round. any input is appreciated....im open to ideas or tips of any kind..
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Are you looking to use the standard AR15 platform? if so 6.5 Grendel is probably the best long distance performer. Otherwise, step up to the AR10 and shoot 175gr 308 out past 1000yds Not even close to the 6mm BRX, but yes, the 6.5 Grendel can shoot out to that distance. The 6.8 can as well with the right bullets (of which there are few). |
| I personally hunt with my .308 rifles. Its a great round, cheaper than a magnum to shoot, and light recoil for mass hog destruction. There is also a variety of hunting rounds from soft points, HP, or Polymer tipped. Its a hot enough round to do the damage you need with all the KE you'll need to knock just about anything in North America with. |
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Are you looking to use the standard AR15 platform? if so 6.5 Grendel is probably the best long distance performer. Otherwise, step up to the AR10 and shoot 175gr 308 out past 1000yds Not even close to the 6mm BRX, but yes, the 6.5 Grendel can shoot out to that distance. The 6.8 can as well with the right bullets (of which there are few). the OP asked for something with reasonable ammo prices, wolf sells a 6.5g round, who sells the 6mm BRX factory ammo? |
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Are you looking to use the standard AR15 platform? if so 6.5 Grendel is probably the best long distance performer. Otherwise, step up to the AR10 and shoot 175gr 308 out past 1000yds Not even close to the 6mm BRX, but yes, the 6.5 Grendel can shoot out to that distance. The 6.8 can as well with the right bullets (of which there are few). Care to name any of these 6.8 rounds that will still be supersonic and accurate at 1000 yards out of an AR15 with anything less than a 30" barrel?!? 
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There is not a round available in the ar-15 platform that I would consider hunting anything larger than a woodchuck with past around 400yds. Out to around 400 the super short magnums would be my choice, including some of the Oly Arms offerings. The 6.5 Grendel with Wolf ammo is the cheapest to shoot but I wouldn't hunt with it at long range.
You can have long range or affordable to shoot, not both. Once you start getting into the wildcats that are attempting to push the range limits of the ar-15 platform the idea of economical practice is right out the window. You are either stuck with expensive/rare ammo or loading your own from expensive/rare brass. For long range for something other than punching paper the answer is either bolt gun (including some of the bolt operated single shot uppers for the AR-15 which are also not cheap to shoot) or AR-10 (in .260 Rem if you want extremely high BC or .308 if you want cheap to shoot). |
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There is not a round available in the ar-15 platform that I would consider hunting anything larger than a woodchuck with past around 400yds. Out to around 400 the super short magnums would be my choice, including some of the Oly Arms offerings. The 6.5 Grendel with Wolf ammo is the cheapest to shoot but I wouldn't hunt with it at long range. You can have long range or affordable to shoot, not both. Once you start getting into the wildcats that are attempting to push the range limits of the ar-15 platform the idea of economical practice is right out the window. You are either stuck with expensive/rare ammo or loading your own from expensive/rare brass. For long range for something other than punching paper the answer is either bolt gun (including some of the bolt operated single shot uppers for the AR-15 which are also not cheap to shoot) or AR-10 (in .260 Rem if you want extremely high BC or .308 if you want cheap to shoot). so you wouldn't hunt anything larger than a woodchuck with a round that has more retained energy at 1000 yards than a .308? hmmmmmm interesting here's about the best long range offering in an AR15 when shooting 115gr DTACs. http://6mmar.com/ the 6mm calibers are gaining a huge following in high power shooting and other long distance competitions since with better bullets they are more efficient than almost all the 30 cals my next build (while not an AR) is a 6mmXC bolt gun to launch 115gr DTACs at around 3000FPS 
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| When talking AR-15 platforms AFFORDABLE and RELIABLE LONG DISTANCE ACCURACY don't even belong in the same sentence. There is no perfect weapon from zero to past 600 yards in the packaging you seek. That's why you build or buy multiple rifles that each fit a specific role. |
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Are you looking to use the standard AR15 platform? if so 6.5 Grendel is probably the best long distance performer. Otherwise, step up to the AR10 and shoot 175gr 308 out past 1000yds Not even close to the 6mm BRX, but yes, the 6.5 Grendel can shoot out to that distance. The 6.8 can as well with the right bullets (of which there are few). Care to name any of these 6.8 rounds that will still be supersonic and accurate at 1000 yards out of an AR15 with anything less than a 30" barrel?!?
Sure...but only if you ask nicely! 
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Are you looking to use the standard AR15 platform? if so 6.5 Grendel is probably the best long distance performer. Otherwise, step up to the AR10 and shoot 175gr 308 out past 1000yds Not even close to the 6mm BRX, but yes, the 6.5 Grendel can shoot out to that distance. The 6.8 can as well with the right bullets (of which there are few). the OP asked for something with reasonable ammo prices, wolf sells a 6.5g round, who sells the 6mm BRX factory ammo? Honestly, you must suck at the internet. I responded "before" he posted about ammo prices. Since I am neither clairvoyant, nor in possession of a time machine, that makes your post pretty useless... The short answer to his question is anything in.308, seconded by the 6.5G in the AR15 platform... |
| okay, im seeing the trend in the .308 and the grendel 6.5. what about grain cartridge and barrel. Bull barrel, match style barrels, length,?my 16" bull barrel in .223 is pretty heavy but the weight isnt a concern either. im goin to use a store bought ammo, so i want availiability, ive seen the .308 in action, in the setup i seen i wasnt impressed, but i will give it consideration. |
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okay, im seeing the trend in the .308 and the grendel 6.5. what about grain cartridge and barrel. Bull barrel, match style barrels, length,?my 16" bull barrel in .223 is pretty heavy but the weight isnt a concern either. im goin to use a store bought ammo, so i want availiability, ive seen the .308 in action, in the setup i seen i wasnt impressed, but i will give it consideration. If you go with a .308, the 155gr Lapua Scenar is a damn fine choice... Very flat, and very good velocity. |
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i do alot of plinking and hunting at long distances, so Im lookin for a caliber known for superb accuracy in the ranges above 600 yards.it doesnt have to have the knockdown power to kill an elephant, but what caliber, grain, barrel twist or length. im not as concerned with the price of the upper as i am the cost of the round. If you cant afford to shoot it, its a very extravagant paperweight. I now have a .223 rem, 16" bull barrel upper and want to change for longer reachin round. any input is appreciated....im open to ideas or tips of any kind.. If you are not looking to shoot deer, check out the 204 Ruger. DPMS AR-15 .204 Ruger, 24 Inch Bull Fluted Barrel, 30rd Mags Caliber: 204 Cal. Ruger Barrel: 24 inch 416 SST Bull Barrel, Fluted Length: 42 7/16" Weight: 10.25 lbs. Stock: Standard A2 Black Zytel Mil-Spec w/ trap door assembly Sights: None, mounting optics only Capacity: 10 Rd Mags, 20 Rd Mags & 30 Rd Mags Action: Semi Auto Operation: Gas, selective fire Method of Locking: Rotating Bolt Rifling: 6 Grooves RH, 1-12 Twist, button rifled I hope this helps 320pf |
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you CAN do it out of a ar-15, but if you want to get over the 500 yard mark ,it gets alot easier with the .308 platform. the more powder you get behind you bullet, the further it wants to go.
.308 would have the most factory options for ammo, and would prolly be the cheapest. a few company's make WSM ar's, but that stuff will run you around $50 a box of 20 , I have a .300WSM bolt gun that I have taken deer with past 500. but unless you load your own it gets expensive fast. .260 rem is another great option. my best long range rifle currently is a DPMS REPR with a 24" sst Kreiger in .260 rem. the 6.5 bullets really hold their velocity and will out shine any .308 past 400yards. factory ammo costs about the same as .308 but with slightly less options, and you prolly wont find it stocked in smaller stores. I will have to double check, but I believe that there was a co that was going to offer the berger VLDs as a factory offering. these bullets just keep going, still having over 1500FPS at 1000yards, and i took a white tail last fall with it at 450 yards. best bet if you want a great gun is to get a bbl from Kreiger or another mfg known for accuracy and have it put in your upper(you can send your upper to Kreiger and they can install the bbl for you) I have the light weight DPMS upper on my 24" REPR, I havnt weighted it, but it feels lighter then my 18"bbl'd SASS with the standard receiver. just something to think about since you talked about weight. just for reference, my .260 REPR at 100yrds, 3shot group with handloaded berger 140gr VLDs 
and my best at 500, 5 shot group 
and this is a 10shot group at 100yards with 180gr win PP's out of a DPMS SASS in .308 that i recently sold.hole on the right was the wind blowing me over(35mph gusts) 
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Long range plinking: You'd be fine with a 5.56 in a 20" or slightly longer barrel out to 600 yds. service rifle matches are shot with this caliber at this range.
Long range hunting out to 600 yds, definitely requires stepping up to a larger caliber. A .308 seems the most cost effective as standard parts and ammo are abundant. I still wouldn't hunt anything big with it, out there at 600yds. If ammo pricing weren't a concern, then something in a .308 platform using a 6.5 or 6mm bullet would be good for reaching out. 6.5 bullets like the .260 Remmington have good sectional density, and low drag which makes them good energy retainers and exceptional penetrators on game. |
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For store bought ammo the cheapest step up from 223 would probably be 6.5 grendal if you have to stick to the ar15 lower. If you would reload then there are better alternatives. Though if you are not shooting 77's or 80's in your 223 then you need to try them first. Maybe even get a longer barrel. If velocity is the main concern get the longest barrel possible. Go with a decent taper ending at .8 or so, medium palma is popular.
check out gun deals to see what kind of prices you are looking at then compare them to ballistic tables. Make note of the barrel length and action type. Gas guns can loose up to 50 FPS over a bolt gun. grendal artical 6mm AR article ETA I would not shoot big game at 600 yards with any of these rounds. You need to decide how much energy you need on target and the sectional density for you to make a clean shot. |
| When you through in the ammo cost, the 308 fits best. The 260 or 6.5 Creedmoor would be next, but you do not get to keep the AR15 lower for any of these. For small game, the Grendel will work, but the ammo is not cheap unless you buy cheap Wolf. It will not shoot as well as the good stuff. The good stuff is $35 plus. If you handload you can bring that cost down considerably. I have all of the above in AR platforms and my choice for hunting beyond 400 yards is the 308 and a good 175 gr to 180 gr bullet. |
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OK, in the AR15 platform, past 600 yards, there is really only one contender, and that is the the Grendel.
.308 requires a step up to the AR10 size platforms, as does .260, 6.5x47, etc. The WSSM options don't but there is no cheap ammo. Short of 600, the 6.8 makes some sense, though it really fades after 400 with almost all the bullets available. And what is cheap ammo? $1 a round, $2 a round? Hornady is about to release a ton of 123 AMAX ammo at about .90 cents-$1 street price for the Grendel, which should alleviate most of the ammo issues. There is Wolf 123 ammo at about .60/round, but its been rare lately, and it isn't 600 yard ammo. Still, within the AR15 platform, the Grendel is the only real player. |
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im sure with the popularity the .308 is a choice to consider. the cost per round needs to be less than $1.50 a round. im such a newbie at the ar15 platform, i dont know alot about anything. this new setup will be strictly for a new upper for a milspec ar15 platform. so now that i have the start on the caliber, any upper reciever kits yall recommend? what barrel length and twist? thnks
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| no its not a cheap ammo. but i wil have one one day. when i start reloading ammo, il take it up. but they are way WAY too expensive at this point. and it cost at minimum $5.00 a trigger pull. im only in retail sales, i cant afford shooting a grand worth of ammo a weekend.... |
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Actually they make 6mmBR ammo, it's a few dollars more per box than the 6.5G for the same grade of ammo, Lapua.
For punching paper or Varmints at 600+ the BR is the way to go. 
http://www.6mmbr.com/factoryammo.html |
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If you really are new to the AR15 and long range shooting then you need to shoot it with 77 grain ammo at 500 yards. These other rounds will have better wind drift and drop and energy, but they will not eliminate the need for accurate wind calls. I shoot my AR to 500 yards and while it is not as forgiving as my 243 winchester if I make the right wind call it will land on the same piece of steel. I am terrible at reading wind so I like to practice with it.
ETA a person can't make a recommendation on twist rate until you have chosen the caliber and weight of bullet you want to shoot. and FYI 308 winchester will not fit in a standard AR15. |
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so you wouldn't hunt anything larger than a woodchuck with a round that has more retained energy at 1000 yards than a .308? hmmmmmm interesting I wouldn't hunt with a .308 out that far either. Who gives a crap if the Grendel has more energy than the .308 at 1k yards, The .308 isn't a 1k cartridge and other than for punching paper, neither is the Grendel. Hunting way out there requires a real cartridge and there isn't one that fits in the AR-15 other than a single shot bolt action like the upper. For hunting medium to large game at 600+ there is nothing that fits in a short action that is adequate. That really means no ARs. If I was going to be regularly taking extremely long shots at game, I'd get a .338 Lapua as a minimum. |
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If you are not looking to shoot deer, check out the 204 Ruger. DPMS AR-15 .204 Ruger, 24 Inch Bull Fluted Barrel, 30rd Mags Caliber: 204 Cal. Ruger Barrel: 24 inch 416 SST Bull Barrel, Fluted Length: 42 7/16" Weight: 10.25 lbs. Stock: Standard A2 Black Zytel Mil-Spec w/ trap door assembly Sights: None, mounting optics only Capacity: 10 Rd Mags, 20 Rd Mags & 30 Rd Mags Action: Semi Auto Operation: Gas, selective fire Method of Locking: Rotating Bolt Rifling: 6 Grooves RH, 1-12 Twist, button rifled I hope this helps 320pf The .204 runs out of gas past 400 yds. The bullet BCs suck because they're just too light. The 1:12 twist of the DPMS and RRA .204s rules out the best longer range bullets which are still only OK. My Shilen barreled .204 with 50gn Bergers might be OK on paper out to 500yds. |
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Are you looking to use the standard AR15 platform? if so 6.5 Grendel is probably the best long distance performer. Otherwise, step up to the AR10 and shoot 175gr 308 out past 1000yds Not even close to the 6mm BRX, but yes, the 6.5 Grendel can shoot out to that distance. The 6.8 can as well with the right bullets (of which there are few). Care to name any of these 6.8 rounds that will still be supersonic and accurate at 1000 yards out of an AR15 with anything less than a 30" barrel?!?
130gr Nosler BT @ 2515fps out of my 18" WOA upper? 1223.6fps @ 1000 yards. |
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If your target is just paper at 600 yards, my 24 inch RRA heavy varmint 223 1x8 inch twist using Sierra Matchkings 77 grs or
Black Hills reloaded ammo in 75 or 77 gr will work fine in the AR15 platform. Put a match grade trigger at 2 to 3 lbs and you are good to go in 223 . 
As said before service rifle (223) are shooting at that distance and further at paper targets.... John |
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you can order 6BR ammo from Midway USA and it wasn't even backordered when I ordered up my boxes of t105's and 95's loaded lapua ammunition... Now I just need the AR upper to shoot it out of... next time you're home I know, I am not worried about it... how many uppers do I have that i need to finish testing/developing loads for? I have 4 or more new bulelts I need to play with for the 68, plus the 338 ARSM I need to work on, plus the 6BRX.. so many projects. |
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i do alot of plinking and hunting at long distances, so Im lookin for a caliber known for superb accuracy in the ranges above 600 yards.it doesnt have to have the knockdown power to kill an elephant, but what caliber, grain, barrel twist or length. im not as concerned with the price of the upper as i am the cost of the round. If you cant afford to shoot it, its a very extravagant paperweight. I now have a .223 rem, 16" bull barrel upper and want to change for longer reachin round. any input is appreciated....im open to ideas or tips of any kind.. What plinking and hunting are you doing at 'long distances' with a 16" .223? It sounds like you aren't very familiar with long range shooting, because if you were you wouldn't be asking this question. My suggestion, before purchasing an upper or deciding on a cartridge to shoot, is to research exterior and terminal ballistics a bit before jumping in headfirst. That said, the easy answer is to go big or go home. AR-15 magwell is going to be your point of compromise if you stay in that platform. |
| yes i am a complete newbie to the ar15 platform. ive been shooting long distances for years, but just got into this side of shooting. i never said to be any expert, knowledgeable entity, or whiz at anything, but i want to reach out with new alternatives. if i was certain my setup would make those shots, i would not have even asked the question. if i had the rifle, i would have the balistics knowhow, velocity checks, and bullet drop for the round, and etc. but i dont and im turning to others for their input. ive owned my first ar15 for less than a month, and have not even shot my first box yet, and my scope is still not even lined in yet. so im as wet behind the ears as you can believe....thx |
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velocity data
MK262 is a 77 SMK loaded hotter than you can make yourself safely, mine run 2685 out of a 18" bbl with a max load of tac. But run the numbers at JBM calc, and you will find that there is not too much difference between a 20" and 16" and marines qualify with iron sights and bulk ammo out to 500 meters. With quality 77 or 69 grain I am sure you will gain some confidence in the rifle you already own. Once you have shot it to 500, and if find it to be insufficient then look at some of the other rounds. None of them will be as cheap as match 223, and they are all a compromise to stay in the AR magwell. |
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yes i am a complete newbie to the ar15 platform. ive been shooting long distances for years, but just got into this side of shooting. i never said to be any expert, knowledgeable entity, or whiz at anything, but i want to reach out with new alternatives. if i was certain my setup would make those shots, i would not have even asked the question. if i had the rifle, i would have the balistics knowhow, velocity checks, and bullet drop for the round, and etc. but i dont and im turning to others for their input. ive owned my first ar15 for less than a month, and have not even shot my first box yet, and my scope is still not even lined in yet. so im as wet behind the ears as you can believe....thx Luther84, For commercially available ammo, the 6.8 SPC and the 6.5 Grendel are your only real options in an AR15 chassis, beyond the .223. The AR15 chassis, which is the upper/lower for the .223/5.56, can only handle cartridges with a maximum overall length of 2.26 inches +/- a few hundredths. That means that cartridges like the .260 Remington, .308, 6.5x47, 6.5 Creedmoor, etc. simply will not fit. They will fit in the larger AR10 chassis, which is designed for the .308 case family of cartridges. Of the 6.8 and the 6.5 Grendel, the Grendel has a shorter, fatter case, which means that you can use similar amounts of powder, and then shoot longer, skinnier, heavier bullets, which equals higher ballistic coefficients, allowing accuracy out to the extended ranges you are talking about. Simply put, out to 400 yards, the 6.5 and the 6.8 are very close. Beyond 400 yards, the 6.5 Grendel steadily pulls away and by about 800 yards, the Grendel and the .308 are very close in velocity and energy. Hope that helps! Bill |
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Looking at this thread again, and skipping the ethics of hunting past 600 yards, there is no good viable AR15 caliber to hunt deer with past 600 yards.
You need about 850 FPE min IMO for deer. Maybe a couple that would barely make it to 600 yards. If you need to keep your ammo cheap, learn to reload. A 25 WSSM with a 115 gr boat tail will stay supersonic to 1000 yards but not enough FPE to ethically kill a deer, IE at 1000yds 1350fps and 450 FPE. It would however be fine for Coyotes etc. You would drop below 850 FPE at about 650 yards. A 300 OSSM would seem to be a good choice, but you are too limited by mag length so no long heavy bullets so the low BC will kill you at long ranges. It is mostly suited to bullets in the 150 gr range so a 150 gr BTSP will have less FPS and less FPE at 1000 yards than a 25 WSSM. A 308 on an AR10 platform wont get it for hunting at 1000yds. A super hot 7mm-08 load running a 162 amax over RL17 out of a long barrel looks better and either it or a 284 win will be about as good as it gets for a non magnum for a combo of good SD, BC, FPE at range, IE close to 1500PFS and 800 FPE at 1000 yards. The longest shot I have made with a 7mm-08 and that particular bullet was just over 300yds and it blew through a 250# hog like a freight train but that bullet has an Sd of almost .3 Its a good bullet and cheap at $29 for a box of 100. The only person I know that hunts deer successfully at 700-800 yards is an Iraq vet that hunts in the soybean fields in Mississippi. He shoots a 7mm magnum, in a dialed in rifle, IOR 3-18x scope with 10+ mils of holdover, and he knows how to shoot. I think there is some company out there that builds a 7mm WSM on an AR10 platform. If I was serious about an AR10 to hunt with at 1000, that's what I would do but very expensive. You could just buy a 7mm-08 stevens for about $300 or a 7mmWSM savage and be done with it for a lot less money. |
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Looking at this thread again, and skipping the ethics of hunting past 600 yards, there is no viable AR15 caliber to hunt deer with past 600 yards. You need about 850 FPE min IMO for deer. If you need to keep your ammo cheap, learn to reload. A 25 WSSM with a 115 gr boat tail will stay supersonic to 1000 yards but not enough FPE to ethically kill a deer, IE at 1000yds 1350fps and 450 FPE. It would however be fine for Coyotes etc. You would drop below 850 FPE at about 650 yards. A 300 OSSM would seem to be a good choice, but you are too limited by mag length so no long heavy bullets so the low BC will kill you at long ranges. It is mostly suited to bullets in the 150 gr range so a 150 gr BTSP will have less FPS and less FPE at 1000 yards than a 25 WSSM. A 308 on an AR10 platform wont get it for hunting.. A super hot 7mm-08 load running a 162 amax over RL17 out of a long barrel looks better and either it or a 284 win will be about as good as it gets for a combo of good SD, BC, FPE at range, IE close to 1500PFS and 800 FPE at 1000 yards. The longest shot I have made with a 7mm-08 and that particular bullet was just over 300yds and it blew through a 250# hog like a freight train but that bullet has an Sd of almost .3 Its a good bullet and cheap at $29 for a box of 100. The only person I know that hunts deer successfully at 700-800 yards is an Iraq vet that hunts in the soybean fields in Mississippi. He shoots a 7mm magnum, in a dialed in rifle, IOR scope with 10 mils of holdover, and he knows how to shoot. I have no where to shoot animals that far. Plenty of ranges, but very few, if any, of my shots have even approached 300 yards. Most of them are under 100 as I tend use the Indian blood in me to sneak up on them...
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Where are you in Ga ??
Hey I like the Indian stalk. Don't need anything more than a bow and arrow if you are good. I personally will not take a shot at a deer over 300-350 yards. Just don't want to cripple a nice animal. I will however shoot a hog at any distance if I think I can hit it. One field I hunt in is 850 yards, but that is a long freekin shot and if you hit any little piece of broom straw or misjudge the wind then you are screwed. I am just not that good of a long distance shot anyway to hunt at 800 yards unless maybe its dead calm and I have a good milhash scope. You also really need to practice at the distance you will hunt at. Hogs cant see worth a darn anyway so its usually not that hard to drive up within 200-300 yards and at that distance mostly anything will do. |
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