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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Boat Gun (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 5/2/2009 3:45:43 AM EDT
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My best friend is Capt. of a 1927 100' sailing yacht. New Refit, U.S. flagged. Owner is a billionaire. The Capt. is looking for a rifle for an on board deterrent. We have looked at FALs, and .308ARs. I haven't mentioned this yet to him but I think the .50 Beowulf would be an ideal choice. Range, shooting from the deck of a boat would be 200yds max if you expect any accuracy imo. The Beo round will stop a motor drt.
He has shot my Beo before I padded the stock and let's just say He respects the kick, and has sported some serious bruises for a week or so. So I think he may be against the weapon for it's recoil alone. Two of the crew are female, and seem to be quite fit I may add. What say you? He's still looking. |
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Ammo availability would be a concern to me. I'd go with a .308 carbine, FAL, M1A, what ever he's comfortable, with and a couple 12 ga. shotguns. M1A might get the nod, but he's more comfortable with an AR. He likes the .308. The owners sons both have 50 BMGs so theres no need to go there. Whatever he goes with he says he wants two of, so that could become a factor in itself. I would get s.s. barrels for sure and I feel that one would want to keep the oal down to a minimum . |
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Where does he plan to sail, which ports does he expect to enter? US Flagged vessel carrying firearms, limits the ports you can enter without serious issues. Gets worse when the firearms are those that are banned by numerous countries. Make sure he does his homework before starting down that path.
Also note that NSWG trains at far less than 200 yd for shots from one vessel to another when dealing with vessels that size... at the ranges where your shooters will be effective (as in, they have not trained to the level of proficiency that they will be able to hit targets at 200 yd on land, let alone a rolling and pitching deck) just stick with the shot gun. Slugs can be used to disable motors, buck shot is quite effective, and shot guns tend to garner less raised eyebrows.... |
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Where does he plan to sail, which ports does he expect to enter? US Flagged vessel carrying firearms, limits the ports you can enter without serious issues. Gets worse when the firearms are those that are banned by numerous countries. Make sure he does his homework before starting down that path. Also note that NSWG trains at far less than 200 yd for shots from one vessel to another when dealing with vessels that size... at the ranges where your shooters will be effective (as in, they have not trained to the level of proficiency that they will be able to hit targets at 200 yd on land, let alone a rolling and pitching deck) just stick with the shot gun. Slugs can be used to disable motors, buck shot is quite effective, and shot guns tend to garner less raised eyebrows.... Yeah, it's not easy is putting it mildly. Shooting from one deck to/at another is a down right bitch... Shotguns are GTG in that respect... |
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M2HB belt fed 50. No one messes with a 50BMG. You can get a civi version. Or a Barret M-82 maybe. Those would be the best in open ocean. In port is another story.
37mm Less Lethal might be useful for some cases: rubber, wood, smoke, CS etc. Also may get around some legalities. In another life, I was a Dockmaster at a marina, and helped tie up million dollar boats. I have a T-shirt given to me by the captain of Richard Petty's boat someplace. (This was Daytona Beach) These boats represent thousands of dollars in fuel alone. Harbors will bend over backwards to have these boats berth there. So long as what you have is US legal, that's the main concern. Worrying about the laws of some podunk country is not worth it: If they want to F-with you, they will! Regardless if you are legal or not. Most of them are would be looking for a bribe anyway. My grandfather used to travel to Mexico all the time. He explained the system to me once. "Look for the customs official with the fanciest gun strapped on his hip, usually with pearl handles. That's the guy in charge. That's they guys you need to buy off." This was for smuggling summer sausage into the country. |
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OK, so you have a crew (two of whom you identify as female for reasons unknown as there are plenty of women who can "hang with the guys" in terms of shooting and fighting skills but I digress)
Your crew is able bodied, fit and skilled at seamanship. However, barring those with interesting DD-214s, most of them have not had significant instruction in firearms, shooting, counter-piracy, etc. Their response to an armed confrontation on the open seas is an unknown at best and nobody can unequivocally state how they will react until they are actually in the situation. So you wish to arm them, to act as a deterrent. Keeping in mind their proficiency - or lack thereof - with firearms, the thought of making 200 yd shots is unrealistic. As stated, any boarding party would have to be close and at those ranges, shotguns are quite effective (slugs can put big holes in stuff and they make specific rounds to disrupt engines on watercraft). Furthermore, certain firearms will not only create a concern in foreign ports, but also in US ports. For instance, importation of certain firearms into California is prohibited without permits, etc (yes, you can bring them into CA, but for things like movies, etc). So having an HK91 onboard and then entering Catalina Island would be an issue ... While the owners stature might help, it can also be a "jackpot" for certain officials - more hassle as they believe they can get more financial renumeration from the deeper pockets. Barring all hypothesizing, your most realistic option is still the shotgun. And if the owner is serious about deterrents, investing in training for the crew, or hiring crew members with applicable backgrounds, would be more cost effective. In addition, those crew members may have a personal preference or suggestions on platforms. |
| Basic Mossberg 500 with a marine finish and you are good to go. Its cheap, so you won't miss it if it goes overboard or gets confiscated. 12 gauge shells come in a variety of loadings so you will find it quite versatile, perhaps even being able to chamber 12 gauge flares for distress signals. |
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RPK and plenty of 75 round magazines. Tracers would be good to have on hand also. He's not playing call of duty 4 he's tooling around on a yacht. It's obvious that most of the posters haven't ever cleared a large vessel. Something the size of an M14 or FAL is not what I'd be using for something like that. I agree with your assessment that a short shotgun or an SBR of some sort would be the best answer. PA18, I think you can have whatever you want in international waters, the ports where the ships go to is what becomes problematic. |
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Where is he sailing the yaht? I belive it is unlawful to have firearms onboard in international waters. This is the reason the pirates are having a field day with all the ships off africa, no reason to be scared of an unarmed ship. It is not unlawful. Many ports don't care what weapons you bring into port. Customs officials will come on board, see the location of the weapons, seal the location, then check the seal to make sure it hasn't been broken before you leave port. Just need to know which ports operate like this or don't check at all. |
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RPK and plenty of 75 round magazines. Tracers would be good to have on hand also. He's not playing call of duty 4 he's tooling around on a yacht. I'm way too old to play video games. My suggestion was based on the reality that precise aimed fire would be nearly impossible so a bullet hose that would be up to heavy sustained fire would be just the thing. My RPK is what I would take personally. Remember, the other guys will be shooting back and overkill is always better than not bringing enough firepower. He could always have something lighter and smaller for "clearing" duty. Then again, if you're having to clear the boat, plan A already failed. My wife tells me I over do everything, she might be right. 
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Where is he sailing the yacht? I believe it is unlawful to have firearms on board in international waters. This is the reason the pirates are having a field day with all the ships off Africa, no reason to be scared of an unarmed ship. Shows what you know. Listen, the old boy already has shotguns. It is not uncommon for assault weapons to be declared in foreign ports and what you don't want to declare you keep your mouth shut about and pay the customs dude, These mega yachts provide a predictable income to most ports of call and are rarely harassed. When at sea during transit or when the owner or guest are on board, its rather fun to toss an empty keg in the water and everyone have at it with ARs, AKs or whatever you can muster. That is if your owner is of that persuasion. Some private yachts do travel unarmed but it is very unwise. Pirates have never stopped going after pleasure craft and that scenario is far more common than piracy of large container ships. |
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THIS
It is not unlawful. Many ports don't care what weapons you bring into port. Customs officials will come on board, see the location of the weapons, seal the location, then check the seal to make sure it hasn't been broken before you leave port. Just need to know which ports operate like this or don't check at all.[/quote] |
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A weapon is just one part of the plan. I would be more concerned with proper crew action in the event of attack by pirates. The following situational questions come to mind: What to do to prevent attacks in waters subject to pirate activity, actions of crew during a attack, if the pirates board, emergency plan if someone is injured, or better if you captured one these dudes, parts of the yacht which offer a tactical advantage to during a attack.
If this fellow is loaded to the gills, I would modify the ships bridge to withstand multible 7.62 ball impacts and a harden door on the engine room. This way you could control the ship and by sometime until the good guys help you out. Gun for me would be a 308 AR and some tracer rounds mixed with ball. |
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I've been plenty close to the stinkpots in the Monte Carlo marina and have made nice with the thugs in the RIBs providing security... which is what goes back to my earlier post - augment your crew with some folks with applicable backgrounds. Plenty of frogs out there who wouldn't mind some R&R on a big yacht, providing security, as long as the CPN is cool. They will have their own preference and would be a LOT better in walking you through stem to stern as to what mods etc will offer the enhancements you need. Like said, stow gear in the locker in port, avoid problematic ports, but IMHO, proper staffing will go much further than overdoing the hardware...
And to qualify on the Ma Deuce shipboard, you just have get NEAR the 55 gal drum. Hitting it gets you an "expert" badge... that should offer some perspective... |
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RPK and plenty of 75 round magazines. Tracers would be good to have on hand also. He's not playing call of duty 4 he's tooling around on a yacht. I'm way too old to play video games. My suggestion was based on the reality that precise aimed fire would be nearly impossible so a bullet hose that would be up to heavy sustained fire would be just the thing. My RPK is what I would take personally. Remember, the other guys will be shooting back and overkill is always better than not bringing enough firepower. He could always have something lighter and smaller for "clearing" duty. Then again, if you're having to clear the boat, plan A already failed. My wife tells me I over do everything, she might be right. I agree with the choice of an RPK. Hitting a moving ship is going to be hard. Hitting one from a moving ship will be harder. So you either need to be good or lucky. A low recoiling semi auto with lots of ammo gives you more chances to be lucky. I'd put a good muzzle brake on it and a red dot or low power optic and definitely use tracers. This will give you a better chance to correct your aim. Plus seeing the tracers come their way will be a better deterrent. The added noise from the brake will not make them any braver. Where I really disagree with the OP is the whole idea of deterrent. You can't expect someone desperate enough to sail hundreds of miles off shore to commit armed robbery to act rationally or to be scared easily. Deterrence is worth a try. But you really need a plan for killing them off in case they get pissed off not scared off. Given the choice of anything ever made, I'll take a MG42. Fired in short busts, it's like an 8mm shotgun. |
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An interesting question. As a serious offshore boater I have some insight. First as you can imagine shooting with any sort of accuracy off of a small boat (under 75 ft) is quite hard in any kind of seas. Sometimes minute of boat is all you can expect. Secondly boats are very bullet resistant. The curved surfaces and solid fiberglass material is hard to penetrate at most angles. The bigger the boat the thicker the material. A decent rate of fire is desirable as shooting a silhouette sized group will be hard. Usually just shooting for the engines or the hull in general might be all that you can do especially as the boat is moving.
My choice for the last 25 years has been the FN LAR in 7.62 of course with a bunch of 20 round magazines. The round I had all the mags loaded with was military black tip AP ammo. I had even went so far as to pull the 1960s era bullets and reload them in new cases and waterproofed them myself. As I regularly went 15-40 miles offshore this is what I felt comfortable with. Those that go offshore know this but believe me when you are 30 miles offshore and can't see land in any direction you will appreciate a good weapon "system". This was during the 70s and 80s and in South FL there were many suspect boats 30miles offshore. I had to display my weapon more than once. I was looking for a round and weapon that had maximum penetration with portable size firepower. Now that I don't go offshore to far anymore, usually 5-15 miles as I have a different situation. I have a smaller boat now and don't go out as much. Now I just throw the SBR in the boat with plain old M855 or sometimes just the stainless 12 GA. Takes up less room, and less mags etc to pack.
As a last note if you shoot a shark with a 9mm JHP and have to shoot through more that a few inches of water you won't even break the skin no matter how many mags you dump into him. Believe me on this one    
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Where is he sailing the yaht? I belive it is unlawful to have firearms onboard in international waters. This is the reason the pirates are having a field day with all the ships off africa, no reason to be scared of an unarmed ship. that was my impression also, maybe this pertains only ti commercial vessels? 
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Where is he sailing the yaht? I belive it is unlawful to have firearms onboard in international waters. This is the reason the pirates are having a field day with all the ships off africa, no reason to be scared of an unarmed ship. that was my impression also, maybe this pertains only ti commercial vessels?
Unlawful to what law? Its international waters! Who is gonna enforce what law? Once you reach international waters you are generally under the laws of the flag you fly. Intl waters Wiki "Mare Liberum is the 'freedom of the sea,' where all jurisdictions are quashed in modern legal systems except those under the Universal Declaration of Human Rights;" thats human trafficking and such. Now for the OP, more important than heavy weapons is technology: NVGs {night vision goggles} /NODs {night observation devices}–– get some AN/PVS-7 (or better these days) and PVS-4. and also thermal imaging has come a long way. Termal imaging should work great on the ocean. Also a way to quickly douse the lights on board ship. The bad guys are probably low-tech, looking for bobbing lights. In hostile territory a low light signature would be a good idea. All of these things can give you time: time to react, time to run, time to prepare a defense. |
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Where is he sailing the yaht? I belive it is unlawful to have firearms onboard in international waters. This is the reason the pirates are having a field day with all the ships off africa, no reason to be scared of an unarmed ship. that was my impression also, maybe this pertains only ti commercial vessels?
Unlawful to what law? Its international waters! Who is gonna enforce what law? Once you reach international waters you are generally under the laws of the flag you fly. Intl waters Wiki "Mare Liberum is the 'freedom of the sea,' where all jurisdictions are quashed in modern legal systems except those under the Universal Declaration of Human Rights;" thats human trafficking and such. Now for the OP, more important than heavy weapons is technology: NVGs {night vision goggles} /NODs {night observation devices}–– get some AN/PVS-7 (or better these days) and PVS-4. and also thermal imaging has come a long way. Termal imaging should work great on the ocean. Also a way to quickly douse the lights on board ship. The bad guys are probably low-tech, looking for bobbing lights. In hostile territory a low light signature would be a good idea. All of these things can give you time: time to react, time to run, time to prepare a defense. Thermal camera is mounted on lower spreader. Its badass. I dont know if he has NVGs, but that would be high on my list for sure. I kept them on my boats. |
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I'd probably go with the Project Leonidas from Noveske Rifle works in .308. Money not being an issue, get two with 50 mags and 5000 rounds of ammo, mix some tracers in with it. I'd get the semi auto version unless he's licensed for full auto.
I also agree with the others that advise to check the laws in the ports which he'll be landing. Project Leonidas Check this link. The bottom two are the rifle I'm suggesting. video |
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moving boat=belt fed something or another The Owner's a Billionaire. Maybe he can have Dillon Aero make him something in stainless with a solar trickle charger 
Seriously, sounds like a Larue OSR would do nicely––mostly corrosion resistant stainless, alloy and polymer... |
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moving boat=belt fed something or another The Owner's a Billionaire. Maybe he can have Dillon Aero make him something in stainless with a solar trickle charger
Seriously, sounds like a Larue OSR would do nicely––mostly corrosion resistant stainless, alloy and polymer... We had a guy down here in FL that had a 50 cal belt fed mounted on the front of his boat. This was about 20 years ago. He had it on boat for a while then one day he got stopped on his way back in and the gun was confiscated. It took him a long time and much money to get it back. After that I am reluctant to use NFA items on boat. They claimed he was taking it out of the country and then bringing it back in and the JBTs claimed this was a violation.
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Ammunition commonality and availability would be a consideration. As such, the .308 or 7.62x39 calibers would be preferred. As mentioned by another poster, small water craft are surprisingly resistant to sinking. If money REALLY is not a consideration, nor is NFA, and you are willing to train your crew, I would forego any larger caliber weapon like a .50 BMG. Why? If you mount it, it will be have limitations in terms of field of fire. If it is unmounted, it is also not that easy to tote around the deck during a high stress situation. Plus shooters can be intimidated by the recoil (real or perceived). And even with a .50 BMG you will only make one hole at a time (unless belt fed and that becomes non-portable shipboard)
I think you need something portable, relatively maneuverable, manageable recoil, with the capability to REALLY put the hurt on hostiles. Sidearms for crew - 9mm or .45ACP from ammo availability consideration. Smaller stature crew may wish to use 9mm. Shotguns for deck side encounters - varied payloads, including engine disruptor rounds .308 cal semi-auto for longer range, magazine fed. At least 4, two for bow, two for stern, port side and starboard side (four corners). To truly put hostiles on notice: M67 Recoilless with M590 AP munition 
The M590 cartridge is designed for close-in defense against massed attacks on personnel positions. The cartridge consists of an aluminum cartridge case crimped to an aluminum canister. The canister consists of a thin-walled, deep-drawn, scored aluminum body which contains a payload of 2400 eight-grain (0.5 g), low-drag, fin-stabilized, steel-wire flechettes. The sides are scored to facilitate splitting when the round is fired. When the projectile leaves the muzzle, the pressure ruptures the canister along the score marks to release the flechettes which disperse in a cone angle of approximately 8 degrees. Maximum effective range: 328 yd (300 m) 
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| Marty, hopefully fortfoto is paying attention to what you are saying. It is especially significant considering you COULD be trying to sell him a couple .458's, but are realistic. Something else I recently learned and hadn't thought of, is that all these pistol grip shotguns are useless for butt swiping someone! You have to totally change your grip if you gotta clock someone in the head or stomach with the butt of the shotgun. Regular buttstock works great for that situation. Maybe get a short stock in case you got lots of clothes or lifejacket on. |
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Where is he sailing the yaht? I belive it is unlawful to have firearms onboard in international waters. This is the reason the pirates are having a field day with all the ships off africa, no reason to be scared of an unarmed ship. Go sailing in international waters, many many people carry firearms onboard private vessels, yes you are not supposed to in port in some locations, but hey criminals arent supposed to commit crimes. Corporate shipping vessels are a different story. |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Boat Gun (Page 1 of 2)
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