M4 vs Light Profile - Page 1

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Posted: 9/21/2017 11:11:10 AM EDT

I originally built my Rifle with a heavy barrel. Now that I realize the folly of my ways, I want to replace it to lighten up the rifle. I am debating between an M4 profile and a light profile. I do not shoot automatic nor lots and lots of rounds really quickly so I am not too worried about heat management. Will a light barrel serve me well without a significant loss of accuracy?

Posted: 9/21/2017 1:03:41 PM EDT

[#1]

Yes a light barrel will be fine. You might notice a POI change after sustained fire, but most barrels are not bad. Look into something like the Faxon Gunner which is lightweight pencil profile in the front, but thicker by the chamber which helps with POI changes, barrel whip, and improved accuracy

Posted: 9/22/2017 4:39:53 AM EDT

[#2]

IMHO anything other than a pencil profile is a complete waste for semi automatic fire. I've sold off all but ONE "gov't profile" barrel upper I own (kept an FN CHF/CL middy).
No other rifle uses such a ridiculously large barrel (even my AK's, 7.62x39, have thinner barrels than "Gov't profile"). The 5.56 "poodle shooter" does NOT need a thick barrel.
Sure, thicker means less deflection, means more accuracy... but to what end? It's a super light cartridge, and should be in a super light rifle. If you're going heavier.. why not go heavier caliber?
So, yeah... I'm (obviously) in the "lightweight" fan category. I just think it's asinine to have a HEAVY barreled 5.56 (unless you're a bench rest shooter). Just my .02. YMMV

Posted: 9/22/2017 5:36:17 AM EDT

[#3]

I think it's asinine to rage on a rant on barrels that are not lightweight and then say it's just your opinion. Seems like you're wanting a fight about it.

But you are right at one thing, YMMV does apply here. I'll keep using what I like and ignore the noise from above.

Anyways, since no bull barrel or anything that isn't lightweight has touched me wrong ever, OP, I think what you're after is something like the Faxon Gunner lightweight barrels.

Posted: 9/22/2017 8:16:35 AM EDT

[#4]

Thanks for the responses. You pretty much confirmed my thinking.

Anyone want to buy a BCM HBAR?

Posted: 9/22/2017 11:42:57 AM EDT

[#5]

I'd recommend a lightweight barrel, either .625" or .750" gas block. If you aren't looking to use your rifle as a 100m group shooting rifle, 600m head shot sniping rifle, or automatic rifle, it will serve you well.

Posted: 9/22/2017 1:16:54 PM EDT

[#6]

I own plenty of pencil & M4 profile barrels, they shoot fine, the M4 looks cooler though if that matters to you.

Posted: 9/22/2017 5:32:39 PM EDT

[#7]

Where did you find a BCM HBAR??

There's nothing wrong with an M4 barrel. The profile is goofy, but they shoot good. The extra weight on the end damps the harmonics and whip and they shoot better than a straight lightweight profile.

A Colt SOCOM is a helluva barrel in their accuracy and life. I ran one hard for a little North of 15K rounds and I was able to print a 1.2MOA 10 round group with MK262 and a 4X ACOG the day I got rid of it.

Lightweight barrels are easy to carry, and their inherent accuracy is not that bad, but their shootablity is nowhere near what a heavier gun is. They're fine for a carbine class/dirt shooter application, the SOCOM barrel is better for a RECCE.

Posted: 9/22/2017 11:19:33 PM EDT

[#8]

For HD or even low volume shooting, like hunting, where you carry all day and shoot once, a pencil barrel makes perfect sense.

But the heavy under the hand guard, and gov't profile diameter from the gas port forward is the profile of the 16" Navy Recon (Recce), my favorite sub MOA precision build. Heck it shoots 1/2 MOA with match handloads. Not going to do that in multiple 10 shot strings with a pencil barrel. Even that profile is not very heavy I think my Lilja 16 barrel weighs about 2.2 pounds.

I don't think you will find many pencil barrels in the Precision Rifle subforum section here.

One ought not presume we all use our AR rifles the same way.

Posted: 9/22/2017 11:26:15 PM EDT

[#9]

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Quoted:
One ought not presume we all use our AR rifles the same way.

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And there's the final rub.

Posted: 9/23/2017 7:38:30 AM EDT

[#10]

Attached File

Lightweight barrels are really standard barrels.

Posted: 10/1/2017 12:41:02 AM EDT

[#11]

Many years ago, heavy barrels on everything was the latest fad. Now, light barrels are the "in" thing. On a carbine, I like a 14.5" SOCOM barrel. For a full-size, I like a Gov't Profile 20".

Posted: 10/1/2017 1:32:50 PM EDT

[#12]

Quote History

Quoted:
Where did you find a BCM HBAR??

There's nothing wrong with an M4 barrel. The profile is goofy, but they shoot good. The extra weight on the end damps the harmonics and whip and they shoot better than a straight lightweight profile.

A Colt SOCOM is a helluva barrel in their accuracy and life. I ran one hard for a little North of 15K rounds and I was able to print a 1.2MOA 10 round group with MK262 and a 4X ACOG the day I got rid of it.

Lightweight barrels are easy to carry, and their inherent accuracy is not that bad, but their shootablity is nowhere near what a heavier gun is. They're fine for a carbine class/dirt shooter application, the SOCOM barrel is better for a RECCE.

View Quote

This right here... The M4 profile barrel is an excellent general purpose barrel that is light enough, yet accurate under sustained fire... and common and inexpensive.

I had an HBAR 16" barrel long before the SOCOM profile came along..... and it was Accurate no doubt... but a pig... The Standard Profile (Not pencil) is the original profile all M16's had prior to the M16A2. (And still thicker then a M14 barrel....)

And as I have said on previous threads regarding this topic... the only reason the SOCOM barrel is around is due to Wanat and Keating and using rifles in the sustained fire MG role and failing at it. For the limited role a SOCOM Soldier/Sailor may need it, the rest of us, its just extra weight.

Sustained fire on a Carbine is 12-15 rds.... if you need more then that... get a Belt fed... and don't build you COP in the bottom of a valley surrounded by high ground.

Posted: 10/1/2017 6:29:17 PM EDT

[#13]

Faxon Gunner is what you seek.

Posted: 10/2/2017 12:40:25 AM EDT

[#14]

I like the Socom barrel. Pretty close to match grade accuracy for half the cost. I also tend to shoot many rounds in a short period of time. LW simple heats up to quickly.

Posted: 10/15/2017 5:55:06 PM EDT

[#15]

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Quoted:
Faxon Gunner is what you seek.

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I agree. It's a very nice barrel for such a low price.

Posted: 10/15/2017 9:14:01 PM EDT

[#16]

Most people underestimate what light profile can do.

All three of these 10-shot groups were done with lightweight barrels (BCM and Daniel Defense). All were shot prone, off a bipod on concrete.

DD American Eagle Varmint

DD Nosler 77gr

BCM 77gr Nosler

Based on my experience with lightweight barrels, I don't have a use for heavy barrels, unless I am going to sub MOA performance, such as a DMR/SPR type rifle.

Posted: 10/15/2017 9:51:02 PM EDT

[#17]

Quote History

Quoted:
Most people underestimate what light profile can do.

All three of these 10-shot groups were done with lightweight barrels (BCM and Daniel Defense). All were shot prone, off a bipod on concrete.

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1640/25863378035_116b20076f.jpg DD American Eagle Varmint

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1501/25236814523_b6c5b94ab7.jpg DD Nosler 77gr

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1484/25232883744_2e0317185b.jpg BCM 77gr Nosler

Based on my experience with lightweight barrels, I don't have a use for heavy barrels, unless I am going to sub MOA performance, such as a DMR/SPR type rifle.

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So what distance was that shot at, and what ammunition? This actually matters.

I have an SPR 18" and a do all 16" to blend an SPR with a CQB type. They have to be "heavy" or I just wasted my ammo and time developing that ammo to hit at 500 or more.

One needs to realize that we all do not use our rifles the same exact way.

Posted: 10/15/2017 11:01:58 PM EDT

[#18]

Quote History

Quoted:
So what distance was that shot at, and what ammunition? This actually matters.

I have an SPR 18" and a do all 16" to blend an SPR with a CQB type. They have to be "heavy" or I just wasted my ammo and time developing that ammo to hit at 500 or more.

One needs to realize that we all do not use our rifles the same exact way.

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Quoted:

Quoted:
Most people underestimate what light profile can do.

All three of these 10-shot groups were done with lightweight barrels (BCM and Daniel Defense). All were shot prone, off a bipod on concrete.

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1640/25863378035_116b20076f.jpg DD American Eagle Varmint

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1501/25236814523_b6c5b94ab7.jpg DD Nosler 77gr

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1484/25232883744_2e0317185b.jpg BCM 77gr Nosler

Based on my experience with lightweight barrels, I don't have a use for heavy barrels, unless I am going to sub MOA performance, such as a DMR/SPR type rifle.

So what distance was that shot at, and what ammunition? This actually matters.

I have an SPR 18" and a do all 16" to blend an SPR with a CQB type. They have to be "heavy" or I just wasted my ammo and time developing that ammo to hit at 500 or more.

One needs to realize that we all do not use our rifles the same exact way.

You're saying a person can't make hits at 500m with a lightweight barrel? Hits on what?

Posted: 10/15/2017 11:13:19 PM EDT

[#19]

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Quoted:

You're saying a person can't make hits at 500m with a lightweight barrel? Hits on what?

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Look at all of the current long range rifles that our service is using. I don't see a lightweight.

But I get it, you're a fan of lightweight. You do you. I'll keep doing me. We'll both be happy that way.

So again, we all do not use our rifles the same way and neither should we try to change others minds about it either.

And by the by, I know for a fact that my Faxon Gunner will not group the same as my Faxon SOCOM or Colt SOCOM would at that distance.

Posted: 10/16/2017 12:35:37 AM EDT

[#20]

Posted: 10/16/2017 8:12:26 AM EDT

[#21]

Quote History

Quoted:
Look at all of the current long range rifles that our service is using. I don't see a lightweight.

But I get it, you're a fan of lightweight. You do you. I'll keep doing me. We'll both be happy that way.

So again, we all do not use our rifles the same way and neither should we try to change others minds about it either.

And by the by, I know for a fact that my Faxon Gunner will not group the same as my Faxon SOCOM or Colt SOCOM would at that distance.

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Quoted:

Quoted:

You're saying a person can't make hits at 500m with a lightweight barrel? Hits on what?

Look at all of the current long range rifles that our service is using. I don't see a lightweight.

But I get it, you're a fan of lightweight. You do you. I'll keep doing me. We'll both be happy that way.

So again, we all do not use our rifles the same way and neither should we try to change others minds about it either.

And by the by, I know for a fact that my Faxon Gunner will not group the same as my Faxon SOCOM or Colt SOCOM would at that distance.

I'm being as objective as I can. You just claimed that your barrels have to be heavy to make hits at 500 and farther. What kind of hits?

Posted: 10/16/2017 12:23:13 PM EDT

[#22]

Quote History

Quoted:
So what distance was that shot at, and what ammunition? This actually matters.

I have an SPR 18" and a do all 16" to blend an SPR with a CQB type. They have to be "heavy" or I just wasted my ammo and time developing that ammo to hit at 500 or more.

One needs to realize that we all do not use our rifles the same exact way.

View Quote View All Quotes

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Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:
Most people underestimate what light profile can do.

All three of these 10-shot groups were done with lightweight barrels (BCM and Daniel Defense). All were shot prone, off a bipod on concrete.

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1640/25863378035_116b20076f.jpg DD American Eagle Varmint

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1501/25236814523_b6c5b94ab7.jpg DD Nosler 77gr

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1484/25232883744_2e0317185b.jpg BCM 77gr Nosler

Based on my experience with lightweight barrels, I don't have a use for heavy barrels, unless I am going to sub MOA performance, such as a DMR/SPR type rifle.

So what distance was that shot at, and what ammunition? This actually matters.

I have an SPR 18" and a do all 16" to blend an SPR with a CQB type. They have to be "heavy" or I just wasted my ammo and time developing that ammo to hit at 500 or more.

One needs to realize that we all do not use our rifles the same exact way.

Distance was 100 yards. All were shot without regard for barrel cooling. Ammo was Federal American Eagle Varmint for the first group, and the others were a hand load I usually used on my heavy barrel AR's, H322 with Nosler 77gr.

The Daniel Defense barrel actually did three 10-shot groups in a row, without waiting for the barrel to cool. Average group size was right at 1.25" center-to-center.

I've used both barrels to shoot steel at 400 yards, 8" and 10" circles with a 1-4x scope.

That's not to say a heavy match grade barrel is wasted. It's all a matter of how small of groups are you wanting, and how much you want to spend. If you are looking for a sub 1/2 MOA rifle, a lightweight chrome lined barrel probably isn't what you are looking for.

But when it comes to comparing a M4 profile vs a lightweight profile, I have yet to see anything that makes me want the M4 profile.

ETA:

I do like heavier profile, stainless barrels when I am chasing groups. My 18" Larue seems to do okay.

image

Posted: 10/16/2017 1:57:26 PM EDT

[#23]

Better yet, go middle of the road and get a medium profile barrel, get a combo of both heavy and light.

https://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-14-5-Mid-Barrel-ENHANCED-MID-WEIGHT-FLUTED-p/bcm-brl-mid-14-emwf-std.htm

And one I actually use:
https://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-9-ENHANCED-FLUTED-300-Blackout-Barrels-p/bcm-brl-9f-300.htm

I do like a little bit of "see how fast I can shoot, regardless of accuracy" every now and then. So I like heavy types. But I am also not against the light profile barrels (looking at one for a rebuild actually).

Posted: 10/16/2017 2:24:34 PM EDT

[#24]

Quote History

Quoted:
I like the Socom barrel. Pretty close to match grade accuracy for half the cost. I also tend to shoot many rounds in a short period of time. LW simple heats up to quickly.

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Barrel profile does not equate to accuracy. You can have a very accurate lightweight barrel or inaccurate SOCOM profile.

Posted: 10/16/2017 2:38:54 PM EDT

[#25]

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I'm being as objective as I can. You just claimed that your barrels have to be heavy to make hits at 500 and farther. What kind of hits?

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No, I did not claim that and if you were actually being objective, you'd discover just why bench rest shooters and all of our mil sniper rifles use heavier barrels and this would actually be a non issue by now.

Posted: 10/16/2017 2:39:50 PM EDT

[#26]

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Quoted:

Barrel profile does not equate to accuracy. You can have a very accurate lightweight barrel or inaccurate SOCOM profile.

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My lightweight is not as accurate as my SOCOM's.

Posted: 10/16/2017 2:48:02 PM EDT

[#27]

Quote History

Quoted:

Distance was 100 yards. All were shot without regard for barrel cooling. Ammo was Federal American Eagle Varmint for the first group, and the others were a hand load I usually used on my heavy barrel AR's, H322 with Nosler 77gr.

The Daniel Defense barrel actually did three 10-shot groups in a row, without waiting for the barrel to cool. Average group size was right at 1.25" center-to-center.

I've used both barrels to shoot steel at 400 yards, 8" and 10" circles with a 1-4x scope.

That's not to say a heavy match grade barrel is wasted. It's all a matter of how small of groups are you wanting, and how much you want to spend. If you are looking for a sub 1/2 MOA rifle, a lightweight chrome lined barrel probably isn't what you are looking for.

But when it comes to comparing a M4 profile vs a lightweight profile, I have yet to see anything that makes me want the M4 profile.

ETA:

I do like heavier profile, stainless barrels when I am chasing groups. My 18" Larue seems to do okay.

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4412/36177265074_441dcc8f43.jpg image

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When I said that one needs to realize that we all use our rifles differently? Your reply just proved it.

With an M4 profile I get a do all or at least a multitask capable rifle. That I can also chase groups with. Because only accurate rifles are interesting and smaller groups are in fact interesting.

It's all subjective.

Posted: 10/16/2017 3:16:57 PM EDT

[#28]

Barrel profile is directly connected to droop on a suppressor install. A hot barrel looses accuracy and light barrels get hotter, faster.

A match grade stainless lightweight, hand lapped barrel will out shoot a chromelined SOCOM profile barrel.

If you get a barrel hot enough to have a negative effect on accuracy, you likely are shooting too fast to need a really extreme levels of accuracy, IMO.

While lightweight match barrels are not as absolutely accurate as heavier counterparts, we are talking .5 MOA or less difference, though when cool.

Posted: 10/16/2017 3:18:15 PM EDT

[#29]

Dupe

Posted: 10/16/2017 3:21:11 PM EDT

[#30]

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Quoted:
My lightweight is not as accurate as my SOCOM's.

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My lightweight is more accurate than my SOCOM profile. It does not really prove anything though. Barrel quality and precise chambering trump profile.

Posted: 10/16/2017 10:33:07 PM EDT

[#31]

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When I said that one needs to realize that we all use our rifles differently? Your reply just proved it.

With an M4 profile I get a do all or at least a multitask capable rifle. That I can also chase groups with. Because only accurate rifles are interesting and smaller groups are in fact interesting.

It's all subjective.

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Is your m4 profile barrel capable of multiple 10-shot groups averaging 1.25 moa?

Cuz my lightweight barrel is capable of that.

Posted: 10/16/2017 10:38:17 PM EDT

[#32]

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Is your m4 profile barrel capable of multiple 10-shot groups averaging 1.25 moa?

Cuz my lightweight barrel is capable of that.

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I have no clue what a cuz is or supposed to be.

And yes, it's capable using my tuned loads. My lightweight does 1.25 or more with tuned loads as well but it has to be given time to cool off to be able to do it multiple times.

Posted: 10/17/2017 12:30:25 AM EDT

[#33]

see....this is why everyone NEEDS at least 6 AR's so you can have variety. its like a bag of golf clubs.

Posted: 10/17/2017 8:47:13 PM EDT

[#34]

Quote History

Quoted:
Is your m4 profile barrel capable of multiple 10-shot groups averaging 1.25 moa?

Cuz my lightweight barrel is capable of that.

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You better love that lightweight barrel tenderly because it's probably the only one that will do that.

I've mounted up a 5-25 Nightforce on several lightweight barrels just to see what they would do and haven't found one yet that will do that.

Posted: 10/17/2017 10:06:13 PM EDT

[#35]

Crappy light, didn't correct properly, different coat... yaddayadda. Here's an M4 profile and an HBAR. Someday I'll get a handle or a magnified optic on the carbine and retest at 600yds.

UltraDot Carbine

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bu1bCTx2-Gg

Red Dot Sight for CMP "Service Rifle"?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPIHX7Bw0AE

Posted: 10/18/2017 11:21:35 PM EDT

[#36]

Quote History

Quoted:
I think it's asinine to rage on a rant on barrels that are not lightweight and then say it's just your opinion. Seems like you're wanting a fight about it.

But you are right at one thing, YMMV does apply here. I'll keep using what I like and ignore the noise from above.

Anyways, since no bull barrel or anything that isn't lightweight has touched me wrong ever, OP, I think what you're after is something like the Faxon Gunner lightweight barrels.

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I started my reply with "IMHO" and ended it with "YMMV".
Just as your reply is "opinion", so too is mine.
I have no problem with differing opinions, and welcome yours as well (even when you chose to ignore it

). Heck, I won't even call yours "noise" (as you did with mine). But I'm like that, I don't need to feel like "I'm right", I just offered my opinion. Try that sometime. Lighten up and have a great day.