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Posted: 11/15/2007 11:05:12 AM EDT
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I have a 16" Stag. Very fun to shoot, will shoot 1" ten shot groups. I see many pics of other guys that shoot @ 100 yds too of one hole groups, just amazing, using the AR-15. I once saw a picture a guy posted of 15 rounds of Sierra 69 MK, into 1 hole a dime could cover. Now thats a good rifle. And many times I see other guys posting in other forums of pictures of multiple shots, where a dime could also cover. I want to add a barrel to my Stag too. Something that shoots extremely well, something around 1/2" @ 100 yds. I know there are many good barrel makers out there, WOA, Wilson, Krieger, etc..(fill in your favorite maker here __________ ). Not sure who to choose. What are my chances of getting a really ok barrel, say 1" groups, and that would be the best it would do? Is it hit a miss most of the time, on how well a barrel will shoot? Which brand can I be confident of that will shoot very well? I know most companies that make barrels can't make guarantees as to what I wish for in a barrel. Which I understand. But what if I buy a Brand A barrel, only to find it shoots only 62 gr Vmax, and only that, around 1" groups of ten. Is that what most of you have experienced ? Is there really a company that I could buy a 20" Bull Barrel from with confidence? Seems like those barrels that do shoot one hole groups, the owners are very lucky. Or was that the standard for the barrels made by that certain company? I really want to be that guy  . Owner of a rifle that shoots one hole groups. Am I asking too much? And isn't that a goal that is attainable? Deep down inside, don't we all want to shoot one hole groups, all day?  Where do I go? Where should I start? I would like to know, and if you have a really good suggestions about great AR-15 Barrels, do you also have a picture you can post too of your best targets, for that barrel you suggest? Thanks LC |
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Come on in! Close the door when you leave, don't bother replying, nobody else does. Geesh! What was I thinking? Coming here and asking for advice from experts? I just noticed, this is one of those forums where, everyone just reads, and leaves without helping with any advice at all. Especially for us new guys.  LC |
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The rifle is only part of the whole. Getting a new barrel is just one of a few thing you will need to do in order to improve your groups. Getting a good barrel but still shooting standard ammo wont do a thing for you. Getting a good barrel and good ammo improves the probability to improve your groups, but only when you have a good barrel, good ammo, good trigger, good optics and mounts, *being used by someone who can take advantage of it* will you get the quarter and dime sized groups you are looking for. A Noveske barrel is a good start. Dont think it will end there. |
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I am shooting a Wilson 20" SS HBAR set up as a varmint rifle. It will shoot 1" if I can operate the trigger. Try ADCOfirearms that is where I got mine. I also had a 16"Wilson heavy barrel that was not a 1 holer, but nothing to turn your nose up at. I would even suggest that a good trigger may improve your groups more than a new barrel, any two-stage is gonna cut them in half, a Jewell is da bomb. Cost as much a barrel but if you want accuracy a trigger is a must |
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Thanks Pat, Newarguy, I have a trigger that was worked to 4lbs. by Bill Springfield. Nice and crisp, no creep. I hear good things about all barrels/uppers. Wilson, Krieger, Shilen, Shaw, WOA. I wonder if sometimes it is hit and miss. I just hope I get lucky and get the cream of the crop. I recently saw a picture of a target, a guy that has a J&T Upper, he put 20 rounds at 100yds, that a dime could cover. Thats where I sure like to be. But, isn't it more like a fluke? Do all J&T uppers shoot as well. Considering great handload developemnt, trigger, free float tube, solid bench, and solid bench rest, perfect weather, no wind....blah, blah, blah. You know the routine. If I can find the right barrel, then I can work on everything else. I had a barrel that shot 4 rounds in 1 hole, 100 yds. And 10 rounds into 1 hole, 100 yds. But that was on a rare occasion, and only twice has it performed flawlessly, since it has gone south. Need to find a great barrel. LastCat |
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Okay, a blatant plug. Go to my website and check out the barrels I sell. There are my own lines by WOA and CLE and a great selection of Noveskes. They all shoot great. LINK |
Thanks Denny, Not blatant too me, pm Sent. LastCat |
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In my opinion, the most important part of a rifle for purposes of accuracy is the barrel. I you have a a ho-jum barrel, all manners of accoutrements, fancy triggers, high dollar optics and premium ammunition will just not cut it. I recently had my AR15-based match rifle rebarreled by Krieger. I selected Krieger because of reputation and the fact they had exactly what I wanted in terms of product and service. I ordered the barrel as a 26 inch .920 barrel chambered in 5.56 match with a 1:7.7 twist. I shoot F-TR to 1000 yards. When the barrel was ready, I sent them my upper and they installed it and sent it back. I took it to the range the next day and performed their short barrel break-in. I know a lot of people don't believe in break-ins for barrel, I elected to follow Krieger's recommendations, figuring they knew what they were talking about. I used Black Hills 55gr ammo for the 20 rounds of break in. Then at 200 yards I shot another 5 rounds and noticed I was getting about a 1.5 MOA group. (I have a 36X scope on my rifle, I see the holes 200 yards.) I then pulled out some Black Hills 77gr SMK match ammo and proceeded to shoot a 10 round group that was less than a dime in size (yes, at 200 yards); it was one ragged hole with exactly one flyer that I caused, I pulled it and I told my friend who was recording the data for me right as I pulled the trigger. The rifle has a Geissele trigger, a Magpul PRS stock and various other little enhancements. It shot that well with BH ammo, wait until I use my match ammo. I needed to get a fired case from that new chamber to adjust the shoulder. I also measured the seating depth. I now have that data and I have made the adjustments and some ammo. Match is next week. I believe this barrel has increased the accuracy of my rifle. By how much remains to be seen. Group sizes are one thing, scores are another. The previous barrel was fine and carried me into the mid 90s, with 96.5% being my highest; let's see how much further this one can take me. In my estimation if you have decent (meaning they are not broken) parts and you are a competent shooter (meaning you can aim the rifle properly and not move it as you pull the trigger,) the enhancements that will get the most accuracy are in this order: 1- Barrel (need I say more?) 2- Sights (A better scope will present a better image, cause less eye fatigue and will allow you to make exact adjustments and hold them. If you can't see the target properly, you can't hit it.) 3- Stock (if the stock does not fit you properly you will be fighting it and that's not good.) 4- Trigger (For a competent shooter a bad trigger is just an inconvenience, but when it's time to remedy it, use the best.) Please note that I do not have ammunition listed here and the reason why is that I take it for granted that someone who is interested in accuracy is already using the very best ammunition he or she can buy or make for this rifle. If that is not the case (pun intended,) I suggest you buy an AK-47 and cases of surplus crap ammo and shoot it in the dirt at 25 yards; you should be able to hit the ground. |
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If you are OK with a 20" barrel, just have Compass Lake or John Holliger (WOP) slap a Krieger on your upper. If you were looking for a 16" barrel, give them or denny a call (if I'm not mistaken, Denny uses these guys to profile 16" barrels to Denny's specs, so you are still getting Frank's and John's experience and quality). The barrel mfg (Krieger, Pacnor) gets the credit for making the blank. The smith (Frank White, John Holliger) gets the credit for doing a correct chambering job and ensuring everything remains concentric. Check out Compass Lake Engineering's website (Frank White) to get a good undertsanding of what the smith does when the blank shows up at the door. It's a lot more than just slapping it in a lathe and reaming the chamber. |
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LC A lot depends upon what you want to do with this rifle... Target shoot from a bench? Lug it around and hunt coyotes with it? Shoot action type competition with it? You still have to choose from stainless steel,ordnance Cr moly, 4140 ,4150 Cr Moly ..& Cr Lined barrel & Chamber Then there is cost...how much you wanna spend? Do you really want a 20" barrel when an 18" or a 16" will do the job you want done better.... First figure out what it is you want this rifle to do for you...whats it's "mission"... Then lots of folks around here with many years of experience in almost any area of shooting you can invision who will be happy to advise you...imo |
Thanks Sig685, very good and informative write up. Really appreciate your advice, and will take it to heart. So great to hear from an expert, that has field tested his rifle, and then takes the time to helps others, a class act!  Thanks Jmart, 9divdoc very good advice. LastCat |
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