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Posted: 11/28/2005 5:17:40 AM EDT
[#1]
The barrels were manufactured with the gas port approximately 1/8" too far forward due to a mis-measurement on the sample barrel that I supplied to CMMG. There are reports of a few tight chambers. Only 2 folks have contacted me directly regarding that issue. From what I can tell, a few barrels made it out the door with tight chambers either due to chrome plating being too thick or a tight chamber due to a dull reamer. My personal uppers, one of which was built using a barrel randomly grabbed from a stack of 99 barrels, runs perfectly. I have somewhere around 1200 to 1500 rounds through it now with no malfunctions and shoots every bit as good as my old LMT upper. My second upper has over 500 rounds through it with no hiccups. One of my customers, a member here who is a police officer down south, uses a GIFFMANN barrel on one of his duty uppers. He has reported quarter sized groups or better at 100 yds. using Black Hills 77 grain seconds from Cabelas. |
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Posted: 11/28/2005 5:42:59 AM EDT
[#2]
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Posted: 11/28/2005 6:10:11 AM EDT
[#3]
Thanks for the reply Giffmann, that helps a lot with the explanation, if there is one or two barrels that had problems, that would bloom to thousands on the internet. I'm sure they were all fixed under guarantee. Maybe you can point this thread out to CMMG for their response, they probably had family time over Thanksgiving and didn't check all the threads.
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Posted: 11/28/2005 6:17:07 AM EDT
[#4]
BCM DOES have their own line (which are being built as we speak). I have a couple of their M4 1/7 barrels left. FYI, ER Shaw turns barrels for Colt as well. Bravo Company buys the same steel that Colt buys, has them crome lined at the same place Colt does and then PERSONALLY HP fires each barrel and THEN gets them MP tested. BCM uppers/barrels will compete DIRECTLY with Colt for half the money.  C4 |
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Posted: 11/28/2005 12:01:36 PM EDT
[#5]
Threads of this nature are generally no win situations.
What we manufacture in house and what we out- source is something we have opted to keep confidential. We feel this a prudent business move on our behalf. We expect some to understand this and some not to. |
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Posted: 11/28/2005 12:07:57 PM EDT
[#6]
I think what is made where is unimportant, I think that the issue of quality of the parts manufactured and used is what matters. The barrels are 4150, MP tested and test fired before shipping, I wonder where people think there is a problem? The bolt looks heavier then the one from my Bushmaster upper, they use 4150 steel and MP test randomly, the indexing has been off on a bunch of barrels, why do they get a pass? I don't get it.........
Edited to correct my errors. |
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Posted: 11/28/2005 1:40:42 PM EDT
[#7]
bushmaster barrels are 4150 steel and the BMP stamped on the end of the barrel means bushmaster metal particle tested  heres a link to bushmaster's site since everything so far is hearsay |
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Posted: 11/28/2005 2:25:46 PM EDT
[#8]
As Jerad admitted in their forum here, Bushmaster marks all of their barrels as being MPI, but barrels and bolts are inspected in samplings--they are not all inspected.
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Posted: 11/28/2005 2:44:55 PM EDT
[#9]
along with a lot of other comapanies. |
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Posted: 11/28/2005 2:51:12 PM EDT
[#10]
I have a CMMG SBR and am completely satisfied with it. Finish is as good as I've seen. To me, it does not matter where their parts come from. Chevy-Ford? Lot of good products out there. To me what makes the difference is how a company backs there product. Nobody is perfect and a bad part can make it out the door once and awhile. The ones that take care of it stay in business...the ones that don't......don't. Just my $.02. Thanks for listening.
Dave |
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Posted: 11/28/2005 3:04:11 PM EDT
[#11]
I am going to reply to the original question. I have 2 bushy uppers, and one cmmg upper. I just got the cmmg.. I definately like the barrel on the CMMG. Not that I have any issues with my bushmasters, but I got the cmmg for CMP and my results so far are that it will do nicely. The Bolt is tight - that is, if you ride the charging handle it doesnt lock up. My bushmasters slide in like buttah, and did so even when brand new.. however, I expect this to change as it breaks in, and it does lockup fine at full speed. Function is 100% thus far. The bolt is noticeably tight in the carrier. I'm going to consider a tight fit to be a good thing long term, as it will break in. The charging handle is coated with some crap that makes it grainy and it feels like sandpaper pulling the thing. ick. the fitment onto my bushmaster (circa late 2004) lower is looser than the bushmaster upper .. but the accuwedge makes it acceptably tight.
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Posted: 11/28/2005 3:47:41 PM EDT
[#12]
Well I don't want to be an apologist for CMMG, I own RRA and Colt and Bushmaster, and they are all very high quality and great shooters. But my CMMG upper fits tightly into a Bushmaster lower I hooked it up with and I have to wonder is it the CMMG upper? or the Bushmaster lower that is causing the looseness, Bionic? Colts by the way, are notorious for being "rattlers" yet they are the most sought after AR-15's as reflected by the high prices they command, and get. I've read about RRA and CMT and Bushmaster uppers being loose or having indexing problems, or other parts failing, It becomes a lot of "internet smoke" where there is no fire. The original question asks about longevity, most people don't ever shoot enough to wear out their barrel no matter what brand is used. When it comes down to it we all just like what we've bought and feel is good, for the guy who gets a lemon, nothing the company ever makes again will be good.
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Posted: 11/28/2005 4:17:32 PM EDT
[#13]
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Posted: 11/28/2005 4:18:05 PM EDT
[#14]
Colt does it right
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Posted: 11/28/2005 5:52:31 PM EDT
[#15]
I see, thanks for the explanation. |
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Posted: 11/28/2005 6:05:14 PM EDT
[#16]
I refuse to buy from CMMG because I ALMOST bit it on the giffman buy. I purchased a midlength much like the giffman barrels (made in the same batch but with something different I cant remember) and had to read about it on ARFCOM that the barrel I was about to receive in the mail had an out-of-spec gas port. I was not pleased and canceled. |
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Posted: 11/29/2005 3:57:49 AM EDT
[#17]
but this discussion isnt about colt 
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Posted: 11/29/2005 5:55:19 AM EDT
[#18]
Well, Giffmann has stated "The barrels were manufactured with the gas port approximately 1/8" too far forward due to a mis-measurement on the sample barrel that I supplied to CMMG". CMMG was making the barrels to the spec's they were given, so to hold that against them as their fault is wrong. So I still haven't read any HARD evidence about chronic failures involving CMMG products, a bad part here and there is expected from all manufacturers from Bushmaster, Colt, RRA etc. So, to revive an old phrase, "Where's the beef????". All we're getting here is personal preferance and hearsay. aka bullshit.
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Posted: 11/29/2005 5:59:11 AM EDT
[#19]
pretty much |
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Posted: 11/29/2005 6:09:34 AM EDT
[#20]
RRA's All The Way!!! Excellent gun! Great Quality!
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Posted: 11/29/2005 6:24:11 AM EDT
[#21]
Just a correction, the sample barrel had the gas port in the right place. Whoever took the measurements indexed them improperly when gas ports were being drilled. |
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Posted: 11/29/2005 6:26:54 AM EDT
[#22]
so now we're back to bushmaster is superior to cmmg |
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Posted: 11/29/2005 6:43:00 AM EDT
[#23]
I guess that all depends on how Bushmaster would handle a similar situation.  The mere fact that poor Giff had to manually "polish" all the chrome lined chambers before sending them out tells me there were some issues that he was trying to be proactive about. I want to be clear that I don't hold anything agiainst Giff. He should have been stuck with those out of spec barrels especially after months and months of waiting that he and the others who orderded them endured. Even though they were able to make a majority of them work it's no excuse for the poor QC and the resulting out of spec barrels.  IMHO, the only way for CMMG to make it right was to recall all the barrels and, with proper attention to QC, manufacture them to the correct specs. Yes it would have cost a lot of money and yes there would have been a longer wait for all involved but it would have been the right thing to do. BTW, I have a CMMG 16" 1/7 upper that I got in 2003 that has been just great but the way I saw Giff's group buy handled has made me feel uneasy about getting anything else from CMMG. Again this just my personal opinion and you don't have to agree with it. I've already said too much but I've thought about this for a long time and just had to get it off my chest. I'll leave this thread and STFU now... |
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Posted: 11/29/2005 7:10:20 AM EDT
[#24]
I have an RRA national match lower that I put a 16" RRA upper on, both were from Pete at Leagal Transfers. The lower has the 2 stage trigger, the upper is chrome lined and they fit like they were cut from the same piece of metal. It has been accurate and reliable from day one, I love that rifle and it is my best AR to date, I still have to test the CMMG/Bushmaster when I get the IOR optic from csgunworks (ironically, as I am typing this UPS has delivered the scope). Next range trip I'll try it out and compare it to my other AR's. As far as the Giffmann barrel problem goes, how was it handled by CMMG? Did they make good on all the problem barrels? I'm more concerned with how a problem gets handled then how it happened in the first place,that's the bottom line.
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Posted: 11/29/2005 7:14:27 AM EDT
[#25]
To date we have only had two barrels actually come back to us. Giff only had a couple as well.
The barrels were made to an approved drawing. This was not a case of the gas port drilled incorrectly on a fixture as suggested above. |
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Posted: 11/29/2005 7:21:25 AM EDT
[#26]
Okay, so the measurements were indexed improperly on a drawing which then lead to the measurements being indexed improperly on the fixture. Eitherway you look at it was just bad QC... 
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Posted: 11/29/2005 7:33:31 AM EDT
[#27]
No, it is not quality control that we are talking about here. ONE person made a simple measuring error and nobody caught it before barrels were produced. |
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Posted: 11/29/2005 7:37:36 AM EDT
[#28]
Other than using Quality Control how does a company ensure stuff like this does not happen? Never mind who or what is to blame for it my main problem is that the issue was never fixed. In otherwords the barrels were never replaced with in-spec ones... |
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Posted: 11/29/2005 8:05:17 AM EDT
[#29]
I can see if you were caught in the Giffmann buy you'd be angry and hold a grudge, and if you bought a CMMG quality product now that worked great you'd love them. Just like people who bought a Bushmaster with an incorrectly indexed barrel and had to go through all the gyrations to get it fixed, I didn't read about them having a recall to proactively repair the problem, if you didn't send it back they didn't ask for it. So, the count is one and one, but doesn't have any effect on whats being produced now by either, correct? It all still boils down to personal choice. We're lucky to have all these great products from all these different companies, would you rather be shooting an AK-47?
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Posted: 11/29/2005 8:23:41 AM EDT
[#30]
   been more than two tight chambers reported in my forum |
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Posted: 11/29/2005 9:13:58 AM EDT
[#31]
Wow. I can't believe this is still going.
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Posted: 11/29/2005 10:52:57 AM EDT
[#32]
More than likely, someone didn't double check their measurements/work and whomever signed off on the drawing assumed they had done so. Quality control is usually things like making sure that all of your parts are in spec with your drawing. Whether or not your drawing has the correct dimensions or tolerances on it is another issue... |
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Posted: 11/29/2005 12:16:17 PM EDT
[#33]
gas port location is VERY standard due to the fit of the FSB
even a halfwitted QC shop working with a fuxxord print shouldn't have made it past the first competent barrel assemblyman on the line. |
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Posted: 11/29/2005 12:47:58 PM EDT
[#34]
Well, to add into the fray:
I ordered a CMMG upper (16" barrel, flattop, 1/7 twist, B/C/CH included) a while back. The barrel had scratches on it, and the FSB was canted way off. I sent it back, and received a replacement within a few days. Good communication and service. But, then the rail was not to spec (way too loose), and after only a few hundred rounds, the CH was worn very badly. Also, the chamber was very tight, and would not extract several types of ammo reliably. Rather than screw around, I bought a Bushy CH and a CMT upper receiver, and kept the CMMG barrrel and B/BC. I used a chamber brush on a drill and some motor oil to buzz out the chamber, and several thousand rounds later, she runs like a dream, and there is very little wear on the upper or other components. Though their service was good, I'd go with CMT or Stag, or Bushy, before CMMG again. |
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Posted: 11/29/2005 1:29:40 PM EDT
[#35]
http://www.t-wrx.net/other/haterade-logo.jpg |
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Posted: 11/29/2005 1:55:41 PM EDT
[#36]
I have a CMMG MOD4 14.5 with a CMT BCG. I had a few failures to eject in the first few rounds, could have been ammo related. I have since put 500+ rounds though it without a problem.
 CMMG upper, DPMS lower, CMT BCG, RRA LPK, Vltor clubfoot, Troy rail, KAC foregrip, Magpul covers, #38 Swan, ARMS aimpoint ring, Aimpoint compM I sold a sister upper to this to a board member (cugir) with the CMMG supplied chrome DPMS BCG. It did not run very well on his lower and he had sent it back to CMMG. There are threads on this so it has been well covered. He sent it back, it ran fine on their test lower with the DPMS BCG. I did not on run on cugir's lower. Cugir replaced the DPMS BCG with a CMT and as far as I know has no problems now. I took the BCG back from Cugir. I tried it in my rifle, one mag of XM193, and it ran fine. It's in my beater box now. I've been buying LMT stuff lately. mechanically LMT looks good, the fit and finsh is not the best if you are interested in that. I don't want to open that can of worms though. The Bushmaster stuff I've seen and owned has been OK as well. They are all on par as far as I'm concerned. CMT makes nice stuff as well, but again there have been threads on here of out of spec uppers and bolt carriers from them too. |
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Posted: 11/29/2005 3:18:35 PM EDT
[#37]
Bionic, that makes no sense, I don't hate Bushmaster or any other AR-15 manufacturer, they are all good enough or better then my needs. I own a Bushmaster for god's sake, and they are a top tier manufacturer. But that doesn't make all other brands bad either, I solved this problem by owning one of each.
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Posted: 11/29/2005 5:57:39 PM EDT
[#38]
Now this is a true arfcomer...
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Posted: 11/29/2005 6:34:42 PM EDT
[#39]
Your not the only one. I love my CMMG just as much my two Bushies.
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Posted: 11/30/2005 11:29:18 PM EDT
[#40]
I have two CMMG rifles and one more lower waiting to be built. I used to be a huge Armalite fan, as you can see by my user name, but I am a CMMG convert. Their rifles are top notch quality, fit, and finish. I have never had a problem with their weapons in thousands of rounds sent down range. To add to the superb quality their customer service is second to none. They are truly nice. Most gunstores you walk into treat you like you are a nuisance, but they treat you like a friend.
I have no opinion on Bushmaster but I do know you can't go wrong with CMMG. |
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Posted: 12/1/2005 12:18:22 AM EDT
[#41]
I like pie...
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Posted: 12/1/2005 1:26:42 AM EDT
[#42]
I bought my .22conversion kit from CMMG. (DPMS)
I loved the thing up until last week when I installed a Chip mcormick trigger pack, dry fired twice, drove to Iowa, took out the .22 to shoot some steel targets with my uncle and cousin and tried to chamber a round. The round wouldn't chamber. The firing pin had somehow peened a dent in the breach to the point that the rounds wouldn't chamber. That was pretty humiliating when I bragged upa .22-- had a brand new M60 Joe speedloader and my .22 only fired one round-- after I spent some time in the shed trying to peen out the dent. I fired the round, and the next round did the same. I can't believe DPMS put out a kit that dry-fires at the end of every magazine and isn't safe to dry-fire. |
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Posted: 12/1/2005 2:23:01 AM EDT
[#43]
That's why you shouldn't dry fire a rimfire. But two rounds means soft metal. That's rediculous. I do like the CMMG AR15 barrel that I put on my Colt. Good quality and looks good too. |
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Posted: 12/1/2005 5:38:25 AM EDT
[#44]
Thank you for chiming in, and for the explination, I can respect your position on the products that you out- source. |
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Posted: 12/1/2005 6:28:27 AM EDT
[#45]
Hey, thats exactly what I was going to post, dammit.
Anyhow, back on topic, I'd recommend a Stag or RRA over a Bushy, too. The nicest lowers I've ever seen, as far as the finish and machining, have been RRA. |
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Posted: 12/1/2005 9:13:05 AM EDT
[#46]
One thing that might be important to mention, for anyone who is thinking of ordering a M4A1Socom profile barrel (and possibly other barrels also, I'm not sure) from CMMG. You should specify whether you want one in 4140 or 4150, because they offer both according to what was posted in one of their EE posts. They said you should specify when ordering. I'm not sure which you get by default, maybe they only make ones in 4140 by special request (though I'm not sure why anyone would request one). Anyway, back to the point of this post. I haven't yet had any experience with CMMG's product, but they have been very helpful and willing to answer my questions and I plan to place an order for one of their barrels soon (when I get the funds available). I really like the fact that they seem to listen to feedback from their customers and are willing to offer barrel configurations that others companies don't. I have had quite a few parts from bushmaster in the past and most have been great, but I do have a barrel with a canted front sight base. It will zero, but just barely. I have been meaning to contact them about it, but I have had the barrel for a while (it sat around in the box for a long time before I ever got the rest of the parts to assemble it) that I'm not sure if they would do anything about it now. I might give them a call and see though. |
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Posted: 12/1/2005 11:22:13 AM EDT
[#47]
I've got several CMMG lowers (as well as Bushmaster), and an very happy with CMMG. My next upper will be CMMG - probably the 14.7" upper. I think when one is talking about a RECENT company, it is particularly important to realize that things can change rapidly, as the company figures out how to do thing, and might have the occasional teething problems or mistakes early on. The important thing to me is that their quality NOW is outstanding, and they have excellent service. If they had early teething issues, my belief is that they are past that, and I trust them with my business. |
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Posted: 12/1/2005 11:44:50 AM EDT
[#48]
+1 |
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Posted: 12/1/2005 12:08:47 PM EDT
[#49]
I love my CMMG upper, it shoots more accurately then the original bushmaster upper that came with the gun, go figure. Same lower, same shooter, same ammo, more precise zero and tight, centered groups.
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Posted: 12/2/2005 11:03:49 AM EDT
[#50]
I purchased a CMMG 16" M4 1/7 barrel a while back, and after installing it, I immediately started having extraction problems. I suspect an an out of spec chamber was the problem. The cases were getting stuck in the chamber, and the extractor was ripping the heads off. But the good news is that John was very heplful, and was determined to make it right. To make a long story short, I sent the barrel back, and they replaced it with a new one. CMMG gets an A+ for customer service. The new barrel has run perfect for 1000+ rounds now. The accuracy however is less than great. Maybe 6" with Black Hills 75 or 77 grain ammo, at 100 yards. XM 193, M855, Q3131A and Q3131 are all over the place.
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