My Noveske barrels shoot pretty well...


C4

www.GRTactical.com



77gr Mk 5 shot groups

The stainless MRP barrels have 5R rifling unless I am mistaken.

ENOUGH "SPECULATION".

ON THE FRONT END, I WILL ADMIT OUR STUFF TYPICALLY COSTS MORE THAN OUR COMPETITORS'. I LIKE TO THINK THAT PRICE IS A MEASURE (ADMITTEDLY, NOT THE ONLY MEASURE) OF VALUE. MANY OF THE COMPONENTS WE CHOOSE TO USE ARE WELL BEYOND THE POINT OF DIMINISHING RETURNS, I ADMIT. THE BEST SIMPLY COSTS MORE. IT MAY NOT BE MUCH BETTER THAN "GOOD ENOUGH".

I WILL BE MORE THAN HAPPY TO SUBMIT TO:

AN ARBITRARY, WELL-QUALIFIED GROUP OF THREE OR MORE EVALUATORS*

....... ANY THREE OF M.S.T.N.'S RECCE-FORMAT UPPERS IN 5.56MM FOR AN OBJECTIVE COMPARISON AGAINST ANYONE ELSE'S THREE.

LET THEM BE EVALUATED ON:

FIT
FINISH
FUNCTION, MOST IMPORTANTLY. BY THIS I MEAN ACCURACY AND RELIABILITY WITH MATCH GRADE AMMO.

THE ONLY TEST AMMO ALLOWED SHOULD BE A KNOWN QUANTITY:

1. BLACK HILLS MK 262 MOD 1
2. FEDERAL PREMIUM MATCH.
3. NOTHING ELSE.

THE TEST WOULD HAVE TO BE RUN OVER A WELL-DEFINED PRECISION COURSE OF FIRE UNDER AS CLOSE TO SCIENTIFIC CONDITIONS AS RANGE CONDITIONS PERMIT. THE TEST WOULD HAVE TO BE COMPLETED WITHIN A REASONABLE WINDOW OF TIME, LIKE A WEEK - 10 DAYS.

THIS COULD BE ENTERTAINING. WHAT DO YOU THINK? SHOULD WE START A NEW THREAD?

*LET SOMEONE "IN THE BUSINESS" FROM 10-8 FORUMS LIKE DOC GARY ROBERTS, PAT ROGERS, OR TIM LAU SELECT THESE FOLKS.

WES GRANT
M.S.T.N.

That would be interesting. I'd be interested to see it. Should you get any takers, we'll make another thread and tack it.

Im not sure the importance of finish.  Since there are no dealers/builders/etc. that are making their own uppers/barrels/forends/etc.

I'd also submit that fit really has little significance other than how it relates to function - ie., accuracy and reliability.  If the fit is really that different between good builders, I'd be supprised.  Then again the dedicated 22lr CLE built for me had the FH installed and buggered up from the pliers used to install it....

Sure one could say that dealer X's KG/duracoat/magic paint X looks prettier, but seems to me most builders are doing the same thing(s) when it comes to basic one colored finishes - prep the parts (degrease, sand blast, parkerize, k-phos and then airbrush - in other words following the coatings manufacturers instructions).  Certainly there are guys out there doing very cool camo jobs, but then that's not the point of the test is it?

I would love to see a dealers test comparing function and accuracy.  I think it would be foolish and distracting to have someone bitch about off color anodizing on an upper you, me  or any other dealer built (unless we did the anodizing), though.

I think it would be important to restrict submissions to uppers only built be the dealer or his/her employees.   Likewise the guy that contracts or buys prebuilt uppers isnt really the builder - theyre a resaler.  It would be kind of like one of the Colt dealers selling a Colt upper and claiming its their build, dishonest to say the least.  

Or the guy that screws a PRI forend on a stag/lmt/factory X upper that happens to shoot great really isnt a builder. I think it would also give folks the impression that buying a brand X upper and slapping a few parts on will give the average Joe the same result.  Since most know that there are occassionally very accurate factory uppers, they are not the norm.

Then again, if I could get a stag upper with a factory barrel to consistantly shoot 1/2 moa (with factory ammo) just by swapping out the forend everytime or even 95% of the time I'd have a lot less money tied up in AR's.

It might even provide a valuable comparision so buyers could decide how much they want to spend to obtain a specific level of accuracy.  Sort of a cost vs. return in accuracy analysis.

Optics and lowers need to be constants for all tested uppers.

Just my thoughts....

Im also not sure we need a famous named shooter, they tend to be busy.  Good shooters, yes.  We have a few here.  I think they should all be Master level shooters so the accuracy can be really evaluated.

Quoted: Im not sure the importance of finish.  Since there are no dealers/builders/etc. that are making their own uppers/barrels/forends/etc. I'd also submit that fit really has little significance other than how it relates to function - ie., accuracy and reliability.  If the fit is really that different between good builders, I'd be supprised.  Then again the dedicated 22lr CLE built for me had the FH installed and buggered up from the pliers used to install it.... Sure one could say that dealer X's KG/duracoat/magic paint X looks prettier, but seems to me most builders are doing the same thing(s) when it comes to basic one colored finishes - prep the parts (degrease, sand blast, parkerize, k-phos and then airbrush - in other words following the coatings manufacturers instructions).  Certainly there are guys out there doing very cool camo jobs, but then that's not the point of the test is it? I would love to see a dealers test comparing function and accuracy.  I think it would be foolish and distracting to have someone bitch about off color anodizing on an upper you, me  or any other dealer built (unless we did the anodizing), though. I think it would be important to restrict submissions to uppers only built be the dealer or his/her employees.   Likewise the guy that contracts or buys prebuilt uppers isnt really the builder - theyre a resaler.  It would be kind of like one of the Colt dealers selling a Colt upper and claiming its their build, dishonest to say the least.   Or the guy that screws a PRI forend on a stag/lmt/factory X upper that happens to shoot great really isnt a builder. I think it would also give folks the impression that buying a brand X upper and slapping a few parts on will give the average Joe the same result.  Since most know that there are occassionally very accurate factory uppers, they are not the norm. Then again, if I could get a stag upper with a factory barrel to consistantly shoot 1/2 moa (with factory ammo) just by swapping out the forend everytime or even 95% of the time I'd have a lot less money tied up in AR's. It might even provide a valuable comparision so buyers could decide how much they want to spend to obtain a specific level of accuracy.  Sort of a cost vs. return in accuracy analysis. Optics and lowers need to be constants for all tested uppers. Just my thoughts.... Im also not sure we need a famous named shooter, they tend to be busy.  Good shooters, yes.  We have a few here.  I think they should all be Master level shooters so the accuracy can be really evaluated.

Agree. To make it even more interesting, I say we have a Dealer shoot off (they can only use a gun that they built) and the test would be the MEU SOC qualification course and have Pat Rogers run it!  



C4

So, when does this test take place?

Hmm coordinating an in person shoot off should be interesting

Quoted: So, when does this test take place? Hmm coordinating an in person shoot off should be interesting

I will put it all together.



C4

Quoted: Quoted: So, when does this test take place? Hmm coordinating an in person shoot off should be interesting I will put it all together. C4

How many dealers here actually shoot competitively, and or have professional training?  It’s the singer not the song. This is just silly, chest pounding that can never be proven one way or the other.


I dont have anything to prove

There were a number of shooters who had guns built by ADCO- they all ran like the proverbial clock. Pat Rogers

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: So, when does this test take place? Hmm coordinating an in person shoot off should be interesting I will put it all together. C4 How many dealers here actually shoot competitively, and or have professional training?  It’s the singer not the song. This is just silly, chest pounding that can never be proven one way or the other. I dont have anything to prove There were a number of shooters who had guns built by ADCO- they all ran like the proverbial clock. Pat Rogers www.adcofirearms.com/images/adco_carbines.jpg

Me neither, neither of us threw down a gauntlet. (repeatedly I might add)

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: So, when does this test take place? Hmm coordinating an in person shoot off should be interesting I will put it all together. C4 How many dealers here actually shoot competitively, and or have professional training?  It’s the singer not the song. This is just silly, chest pounding that can never be proven one way or the other. I dont have anything to prove There were a number of shooters who had guns built by ADCO- they all ran like the proverbial clock. Pat Rogers www.adcofirearms.com/images/adco_carbines.jpg

Agree. I think a good number of dealers don't even shoot and or use the products they sell. My comment about a "shoot off" was meant as a joke.



C4

PRECISION IS ONE THING. RUNNING AND GUNNING IS ANOTHER ALTOGETHER.

M.S.T.N. IS UP FOR BOTH, FORTUNATELY. LOCALLY, WE CAN ALSO ADD THE MID-SOUTH METAL MANIA MADNESS, RIFLE AND/OR PISTOL. I HAVEN'T SHOT IT IN 6 YEARS, THOUGH, BUT IT IS A BLAST. SEE:

WEAPONSTRAINING.COM

JUST BE SURE TO BRING A LOT OF AMMO & MAGAZINES.

HEY, NEXT, WE CAN HAVE A SHOOT-OFF WITH OUR SPONSORED SHOOTERS!

WE SPONSOR TARAN BUTLER, USPCA TACTICAL CLASS 3-GUN NATIONAL CHAMPION, TARAN BUTLER. HE'S WON TOP HONORS THE LAST THREE YEARS SHOOTING M.S.T.N. CUSTOM UPPERS.

WES GRANT
M.S.T.N.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: So, when does this test take place? Hmm coordinating an in person shoot off should be interesting I will put it all together. C4 How many dealers here actually shoot competitively, and or have professional training?  It’s the singer not the song. This is just silly, chest pounding that can never be proven one way or the other. I dont have anything to prove There were a number of shooters who had guns built by ADCO- they all ran like the proverbial clock. Pat Rogers www.adcofirearms.com/images/adco_carbines.jpg Agree. I think a good number of dealers don't even shoot and or use the products they sell. My comment about a "shoot off" was meant as a joke. C4

Yeah Grant, figured it was :)  I have no illusions about my run and gun abilities even if it wasn't.

So Wes, who are we going to send these uppers to?

I see Jason wants to try on his new hip waders

It's getting to be that season

I'LL ASK THE FOLKS AT 10-8 FORUMS IF THEY'RE INTERESTED IN PARTICIPATING.

WES GRANT
M.S.T.N.

Sounds good, a little competition is a healthy thing.

J  

One of us could call Ross at MS and see if he has a few Navy or Army lads willing to play...  I can ask him or WES could.  Midsouth isnt taking civilian classes last time I talked with 'em, but I know Ross is always up for competition... I can still hear, "I'll be your Huckleberry." in my ears from our last play session.

Running and gunning vs. benchrest accuracy are 2 seperate things.  We can test either or both.  As long as shooters are kept constant across all uppers it should be fine.  Certainly Steve's singer point is well taken - its funny when the guy with the $2K STI gets eaten alive by the guy with the stock glock, but if we use the same singers it shouldnt matter.

I also think a run and gun test will result in alot more expense in ammo, if anyone cares, whereas 10--10 shot groups per upper will be cheap and put little wear on an expensive product.  Of course since its arfcom,  we could then blaze 4000 rounds thru them, engrave 'arfcom test gun, special edition fondled and fired by [insert socom operator here]' and it would probably fetch 50% more than new....

Quoted: Running and gunning vs. benchrest accuracy are 2 seperate things.  We can test either or both.  As long as shooters are kept constant across all uppers it should be fine.  Certainly Steve's singer point is well taken - its funny when the guy with the $2K STI gets eaten alive by the guy with the stock glock, but if we use the same singers it shouldnt matter.

If you find a ransom rest for a rifle, in a wind tunnel, and and shoot how ever many groups at whatever yards; I'll submit an off the shelf, $450 RRA with a SS Wilson barrel, standard handguards, and ball ammo.  People will be AMAZED how well that combo will shoot.

Its 99% the singer no matter how you slice it. Some singers have better days than others.  Julia Watson shoots a RRA w/Wilson barrel. The Junior from GA won the Presidents 100 last year with a Wilson barreled Armalite. Jeff Miller of WOA maintains his High Master classification (minimum average of 97)with a Wilson barrel.  I'm sure had these people been shooting more expensive barrels, they would probably have a few more Xs in their scores, but I doubt it would be many.
I know no one here cares about High Power shooting, but its both rapid and slow shooting, not bench rest.
On the other side of the coin - Michelle Gallager won the Wimbledon Cup using a Krieger barrel with a score of 200 15X. Without practice, all the gear in the world wouldnt have helped her hit that 10" circle 15 times from 1000yds.   That’s skill.  

And all the folks who want to start out shooting with the "most competitive advantage", buy what you want, the guy buying the practice ammo will still beat you.  

You are absolutely correct, running and gunning vs. benchrest accuracy are 2 seperate things.  Its beyond me why people buy top dollar for benchrest barrels for "battle carbines".  Its their money, I guess it can either be spent on practice ammo or gear.

This is a hobby, buy what you want, or what you can afford. For every AR owner who loves his Krieger barrel, there is someone just as happy and having just as much fun with his Bushmaster chrome moly barrel.  

When you are serious enough of a shooter, and you know you are developing past the ability of you gear, you'll know it.  Its a very rewarding thing when you first begin to call your own shots.

Regarding Mongos comment about liking his Lilja barrel.  Are Mongos groups smaller because of the barrel, of the fact that his skill has developed as he was practicing with his Wilson barrels for the last 2 years?  No offense to Mongo, but I’ve watched his shooting develop since the first time I met him at the 600yd range. Those early groups weren’t the fault of the equipment.

Quoted: bigbore, I agree with you on the importance of skill.  It seems to me that one of the more important attributes of a RECCE should be a long barrel life, the better to practice with.

You wont shoot enough to burn out the barrel, to the point where a "RECCE" will not perform. Theres no magic barrel. If you are using blasting ammo, you'll never see loss in accuracy under 15K rounds no matter what barrel. If you are running "match" ammo, your ARE going to burn out the throat no matter what you are doing.  These arent match rifles, toasted throats hurt long range accuracy(so define your accuracy "needs").  Be realistic, a barrel burnt to 3MOA at 600yds will still shoot 1 MOA at 300yds, for a few thousand more rounds, and 1MOA at 100yds for probably 12-15K rounds - easily.  It will be a SLIM majority of users that ever burn any of these barrels out, regardless of the brand.    The only distance you need to worry about is the distance you which you practice.


This discussion needs to take place in the competition forum.  They remove their burnt out across the course barrels and use them for reduced ranges.  I know of more than few Wilson, and Douglas barrels with over 10K rounds and are still competitive - but you're not talking "competitive" you're talking "battle". Again, be realistic with yourself and define your needs from your wants.  

Steve,

We agree on many points - I made master shooting a stock springfield armory NM M1A back when nobody was shooting these sissy mattel guns.  Things have changed...since then.  Remember the days of shooting leg matches with issued govt. ammo?  I do.  Hell, I think I even have a score book in the bottom of my HP bag that Nancy (Michelle's mom) signed - always hated pitting her targets - had to patch the spotter disk and the target!  Now I sound old.

To my point...s

Most shooters spend too much on gear and not enough on practice.  

Good gear generally works better and longer than cheap gear.

I would argue that Ive worn out barrels before 10K in 223.  Now this was when I cleaned the rifle after every match or practice session and Im not talking a chrome lined barrel.  I contibuted to wearing the barrel out.  I will say in the day of m-14's and garands when groups opened up you rebarrelled and rebuilt the whole gun.  With an AR its easy to swap the barrel and move on.  I have seen barrels that were solid 95 or better shooters start shooting in the lower 90's and flyers increase.  To me this was when it was time to rebarrel.  Sure a 2-3 moa rifle is technically capable of shooting a perfect score, but Ive never seen anybody great show up to the line with a 2-3 moa rifle at a major match.  

I shot my first offhand clean using a colt hbar and my reloads.  Was the gun 'stock'?  No!  Yes it had (and still does have a factory barrel) but it has a much improved trigger, the sights have been worked on, the receiver and barrel fit is perfect (as perfect as the physics departments machinist could get it and they let him make stuff thats really dangerous).  The barrel is freefloated (he made the tube under the HG's before anyone was selling them on a lathe).

Lots of folks claim to shoot 'stock guns' but most are not off the shelf, walk into Bucky's Guns, drop the cash and shoot master that afternoon.  While my early match rifles were 'stock' ie., not totally custom, they were built or rebuilt by craftsmen that knew what they were doing and how to make often more imperfect parts than available today function at awesome levels.  Will a factory stock gun sometimes outshoot a 'better' or custom gun?  Sure, but over time good stuff does better more often. While my Hbar will still shoot .5 moa with its used, God only know how many rounds down the pipe chromelined barrel, I doubt I'll find too many more used colt ar's that can.

Im sure John does very well with his Wilson barrelled rifle.  He also knows how to build a great match rifle.  Wilsons are very underated - I used to do it until Jason sold my an 18 SPR and the damn thing started shooting .25 moa or less with my spacegun Rapid fire load during break in.  A sub $300 barrel performs better than my space gun that sports a great Krieger!  Of course, past 300yds the kreiger reasserts itself, but I had to eat a bit of crow.

Yes, the singer matters, but so does the song (and I hate rap.)