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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - SCAR -- back to square one? (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 7/16/2005 6:44:51 PM EDT
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I heard a rumor (on this board in another thread) that SCAR was going back to the phase where they were testing all entrants again, and even new ones. My only guess was that this had to do with LW's MRS and piston system. Can anyone confirm/deny this? TIA, Corey |
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MGI will have our new system there at the next open trials. It won't have a piston in it, because we think a piston system is a step backwards. But it will have stuff that no other entrant will have. And I'm talking major league advantages over anything that has yet been shown at these trials, or seen anywhere else, for that matter. Stay tuned. |
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Well, I'll view this as a rumor for now. However, if it turns out to be true it's probably a good thing as a lot of new ideas have hit the market lately and deserve to be considered. Additionally, while I have a lot of respect for FN (mainly for reciently deciding to sell their rifles to civilians), I'd really like to see this contract go to a US company that dosn't belong to the current corperation country club. After all, the best designs of the past century came from a few brilliant mechanical minds who loved what they did (Browning, Stoner, Garand, Kalashnikov). Not from a comittee of engineers. And maybe this time around Robinson Arms will remember to include some BFAs 
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The FN has alot going for it, especially with the momentum coming off its previous win in the category, plus alot of political pull. I think it can be beaten. I don't know if our entry will win, or not, but one thing's for sure, it will raise the bar for all other entrants to expand their features beyond a simple gas system change, and a slow-change barrel. Once the features present in our system are shown, there will be pressure on the other manufacturers to match our feature set. So, our system will be very instrumental in improving the new breed of combat rifle, whether we win or not. Of course, I hope we'll win. And, we just might. You can't win a fight, if you don't go in and "mix it up" with the big guys. And, as far as FN is concerned, they have already for years been licensing an MGI-designed quick-change-barrel system for the Browning/FN M2HB-QCB .50 cal heavy machine gun being used throughout the world. They didn't design that 50cal QCB system, we did, and they make those parts under license from us. When people like FN come to us for buying licenses of our design work, then we feel pretty good about our capabilities. I guess we'll see what shakes out in the future. |
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Wow, big news. The old SCAR specs ruled out a conventional AR-15. For example (I paraphrased them): 3.2.1.8.3 Be able to charge the weapon while maintaining sight picture 3.2.3.1.1 Must be to fire weapon with a bore obstruction with out it blowing into pieces. 3.2.4.3.1 and .2 Be able to get water out of the bore without opening the bolt. Not sure these requirments can be met with any rifle in 5.56. |
Doesn't Sabre manufacture something like this as well? |
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I've always thought that a little competition is good for everybody involved. My way of thinking is this: If anything comes out of any of the competitors guns which advances the state of the art in combat rifles, it is a good thing. We love the AR15 design, and we would like to see it continue, even in a modified form if need be. And we're an American company using American designs and American made parts, to try to keep an American rifle in the American military. Maybe that's not important to some people, but it is to us. It just might be possible that this can exceed the foreign competition, even though it is based on the AR design. Stranger things have happened. I'm also glad that some other American companies are trying to do this too. We're a little later in arriving on the scene with a SCAR package, but it is a pretty nice setup, and has some good things going for it. I guess it depends on what the military thinks is most important. Different guns will have different strengths and weaknesses. |
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twl I know you have some quick change barrel systems out on the market now, but can we, the consumer, expect to see your entry available on the market after the competition? I know if you win the competition, you might have to sign something to only sell to the government, but barring that do you have plans for the civilian market? Spooky |
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Spooky130, The civilian market is our prime market. The SCAR trials are not something that can be relied upon for income, because it is so up in the air, and there are many good competitors. Everything in our SCAR entry will be available to the civilian population, except the full-auto receiver. The only thing that might interfere, is if we are fortunate enough to win the trials, and some of the parts were designated by the military to be "military sales only". While it may be a "long shot"of us winning the competition, it is very unlikely that our parts would not be available to the public because of some government restriction. You can pretty much count on our stuff being on the market. Also, I hope I'm not sounding arrogant like we are a "shoe in" for this competition, or anything like that. We are just entering our best shot, and hoping for the best outcome. It is a good package that has a chance, and is very unique, and that's all I really mean to say. We don't take any "pre-orders" and we only sell items that we have already in production. We don't do the "vaporware" thing. And yes, since we will be manufacturing both upper receivers and lower receivers, we will be putting complete MGI guns on the market. They will have most, if not all, of the the SCAR enty attributes, and also probably will be available in more "plane jane" configurations too. For those not familiar with Mack Gwinn (MGI owner), he is a combat decorated Army veteran who served in the 5th Special Forces Group in VietNam (MACVSOG). He also founded and originally owned Bushmaster Firearms, which he later sold and no longer owns. He has designed several successful commercial firearms. During the 90's, Mack partnered with AR15 co-designer Jim Sullivan to produce a group of successful products for AR15 use that are still very popular on the market today. He has also designed a line of drum magazines, and a full line of scope mountings under the MWG label, which are now marketed by another company. As I previously mentioned, he designed the current 50 cal quick-change-barrel system on the M2HB heavy machine gun. He currently owns and operates MGI. This is a high-speed soldier who makes tools for soldier's use. He knows what is needed, and has a long line of history behind him in making performance products in the firearms world. |
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I'm sorry, but I'm not aware of any 50 cal quick-change system being produced by Sabre Defence. I checked their website, and it says this: "Sabre Defence Industries is a primary US Military Defence Contractor. Producing .50 BMG Barrels for various M2 Machine Gun variations as well as the M6 Pedestal Mount" It says nothing about making any quick change systems. We are even a vendor for Sabre Defence products, and they've never said anything to us about it. So, if they are making something like that, I don't know about it. If you could provide me with some reference link or something, I'll look into it. I did a Google search and got nothing about Sabre and a QCB. |
Not trying to argue, I am genuinely interested. Sabre sells complete M2 machinegun systems with or without quick change barrels. They are not listed on thier website but they do sell them, though I do not think they make the whole gun. The information I got from them was at the SHOT show when I got a quote for a pair of new M2HB's. They indicated the QC barrels system for the M2 was their product so I was just wondering. |
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I wish I could be of more help, but apparently you are better versed on this subject of Sabre's 50 cal than I am. Next time I get Grant Morgan on the phone, I'll ask him about it. Thanks for informing me about this subject. Maybe they were just talking about the barrels being their product. I don't know. |
I didn't know that. Wow! Impressive. I also am very impressed that both MGI and Leitner-Wise are so committed to the civilian market. For two of the leading firearms companies to be looking at civilians as customers reinforces that an important aspect of the Second Amendment is that the civilian market is responsible for keeping a countries armaments cutting edge. Didn't we see US led innovation slow down during the 10 year Krime Bill? I would like to know Tom and LW's perpective on this. I can tell everyone from personal experience that Tom (twl) and MGI have outstanding customer service and I can't wait to see what they have cooked up for SCAR. (In fact, the more I think about it the info about SCAR opening again may have come in the context of the MGI's entry using an ABS carbon fiber barrel -- is that right, Tom?) From all information posted here, LW also has outstanding customer service. All involved (MGI and LW) are gentlemen. I'm sure they will have fun at the next SCAR trials. Send pics to AR15.com and please keep us up to speed (to the extent that you can)!! Corey |
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Thanks Corey! I'd like to think that the SCAR people are waiting for us to enter, but I'm afraid that is not the case. We're just another "Joe Schmoe" to them. But, we're gonna give our system a chance at the open trials. We are working very hard at completing everything early enough to get decent testing time in, but it will be a tight squeeze. We'll have to push right to the wire. I feel good that people are pulling for us, and that makes us work harder. We'll do the best we can, and I'm sure that all the other entrants will too. I wish everyone their best possible results at the trials, so that the best weapon will really show, and not be obscured by some freak problem. Regardless of what happens, we'll make our best products available on the civilian market as we always have. We are innovators, and strive to push the envelope in whatever we do. Our past record of products have been ones of excellent performance and reliability. We expect to advance that record even further with our new stuff. The customer always wins with competitions such as these. They are good for the industry. |
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why is gas piston a step backwards? the lw GP is just as accurate more reliable and about the same weight |
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Well, I certainly recognize that not everyone will agree with our opinion, and that's what makes a horse race. Isn't it? Of course, we built our first commercial piston-operated AR-15 variants in the 1970's, so we know a little bit about these things. Suffice it to say that over 30 years of experience with various piston designs(and other systems) and testing have led us to the opinion we have today. This is not to say that piston-operated systems don't have their advantages, because they do. However, it is our opinion that in the overall context, the direct impingement system still rules. As I said, piston-operated systems are not foreign to us and we are very familiar with them, and could have very easily incorporated a piston system into our gun, like we did 30 years ago, but updated. We didn't do it this time around, and we have reasons for it. I'm not going to get into a pissing match over this gas system issue, and it could very easily become that quickly, so let me say that I'm not going to engage in that. LW has their design, and we have ours. I'm hoping that the LW cheerleading section is not going to jump on me simply because we decided to use a different kind of gas system than they are promoting. Believe me, I'm quite aware of their presence here on the board. I also am aware that the direct gas impingement system has fended-off virtually every piston operated challenger in the last 40 years of contests, and there have been some very good ones. In the last SCAR runoff, there were no direct gas impingement entries( that I know of), so of course a piston operated system won, in the form of the FN SCAR entry. In our estimation, this FN win in no way proves anything about which gas system is better overall, but only shows which piston system performed the best overall among other piston systems. Among general educated opinion, it is quite divided about which gas system is best, and it is not slanted obviously toward piston operated systems. Some people would like to make us think so, but that doesn't change the situation. If the direct gas impingement system is obsolete, then I'm sure it will play out that way in the end. If not, then maybe it is a contest after all. This trial is not about the most currently trendy gas system. It is about the best rifle for the job. I hope that people will respect our right to use what we feel is best, and not slam us just because we are not in agreement with some other manufacturer about a gas system issue. We are building the rifle with what we feel is best, and that is all there is to it. We are quite capable of making a piston system as well as anybody. If we wanted it in there, it would be in there. We're quite happy if others prefer a piston system, or the LW piston system in particular. That's up to them. But that has no bearing on what we need to do to make our gun the way we want it. Not complicated, really. Just our opinion, and our gun. Because we like our gas system, is NOT a slam against LW, or any other company which is selling piston systems. |
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Cool. I, for one, thought that FN's entry, out of the gate, was an also-ran. It wasn't RADICAL enough and didn't change enough about what really matters to sweep the M16 platform away. I'd love to see some truly innovative designs that far exceed what the current platform offers--which is quite a bit, considering the dizzing array of parts and "upgrades" available for the M4/M16. And, for the record, a piston system is not better. 
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You will, my friend, you will. If you saw my current "test mule" gun, you'd probably fall over from shock. We have some very radical concepts in development/production. |
True. But at the same time the "Using Command" who's responsible for setting the end user requirements also screws the pooch by establishing so many conflicting requirements that it's impossible for industry to satisfy all of them witht he current state of technology. And then you get protracted dvelopment, "requirements creep", requirements waivers, cost overruns, and generally just a bunch of pissed off people. Sometimes stuff gets fielded, other times it gets shelved and the govt pisses away millions. But don't think that in some cases govt isn't their own worst enemy. |
twl, Wow, that's pretty damn impressive. Speaking of MACVSOG, have you read Major John Plaster's books yet? Franklin Miller also wrote a book about MACVSOG titled Reflections of a Warrior, if i recall correctly. Both of them are great reads. |
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City Slicker, On a ligther note I would love to bitch slap your dancing avatar  . That sucker is obnoxious as hell. Cracks me up everytime I see it.Other than that I look forward to getting my LW upper next week and will definately look forward to seeing the MGI setup. Keep it real folks! |
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Justin, Yes, Mack is quite an impressive individual, although he's very unassuming . However, after knowing him for years, and working with him, I've found he is an incredibly creative individual with a vast level of experience. I'm an inventer and designer myself, and I'm in awe of Mack's abilities. The cool thing about his stuff is that it looks deceptively simple, but there is depth to his designs that even experienced people would overlook until they really study it, and realize that the designs handle all the underlying complexities beautifully simply. That is the definition of a "design artist" and that is how I'd describe Mack. He may not be known for making pretty showpieces, but by God, the stuff works really well. I feel honored to be working with somebody of Mack's abilities. I've not read Plaster's book you mentioned, but I'm sure it's a good one. |
Ya' gotta' love him though
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Tom, Consider yourself very lucky. By the way, I just have to ask: can we get a pic or two?
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Justin, I can't post any pics, because we don't have the gun fully developed yet. It is in various stages of prototype and testing, with some stuff still yet to be finished. We are pushing it to the limit to try to finish. Most of the items are prototyped to the testing level, but some aren't. Also, there are just some things that we don't want out on the internet right now, because we want them to be a surprise, or patents are not filed on some things yet. Anything that we've shown so far is IP protected, or it is not protectable. It won't be long until much of the stuff gets shown in pics, and some of the items will actually be offered for sale to the public before the trials begin. Some of the things that are working and being tested right now on our "test mules" are very different and exciting things that have never been seen in a combat rifle before. Our gun design is centered around maximizing usefulness of the weapon, and expanding the performance envelope. In many ways, our design is the most radical design to be shown in a long time. It breaks new ground in many areas. My opinion is that it totally re-defines the individual combat weapon into a "new generation" concept, while still retaining the good things from the past. I'm using some of the new stuff on my gun right now, and it really is something else. To be brutally honest about it, the features on this new gun make the FN SCAR seem like a relic from the past. And I'm really not exaggerating that, either. It's that radical. But in "true Mack Gwinn fashion", it is not immediately apparent how radical it is by first look, until you start using it. That's when it freaks you out. You know, Mack originally wasn't going to bother entering in any trials, because he was sick of the bureaucracy of the system. But, when I started getting some of these prototype parts from him, and getting the drawings of the upcoming stuff, I actually pushed him into getting in the trials. After using some of this stuff, and seeing the capabilities of it, and then looking at the stuff that was being entered in the trials, I said we have to enter this weapon. It is miles ahead of what's out there now. So, we got our ducks in a row, and decided to go ahead with it. |
I understand. When are the trials? |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - SCAR -- back to square one? (Page 1 of 2)
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