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Posted: 2/26/2005 1:12:05 PM EDT
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I'm not familar with White Oak - are they considered top notch, mid-grade or what? Also, looking to see if the upper rec is forged, etc. Thanks for the help... |
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Actually, White Oaks makes a good product but they are not "Top Rung." While their barrels may be decent, they are still just a contoured Wilson blank that is button rifled. White Oaks primarily reworks RRA and Wilson products. Don't get me wrong, their products are a great value, just not the best. |
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Don't let barrel mfg be an issue. WOA will use any barrel you ask for when turning a custom profile. Wilson barrels are a good value, but you can get Krieger, Lilja, Border, ect as long as you have the $$$$$$$. The real question is: How accurate do you want to afford to be? Mike |
While it doesn't consistently do it, likely because of me, my WOA barrels SPR clone has shot a few groups less than 0.5MOA, normally they are around the 0.8-0.9MOA, because I can't put five shots in the same spot - three yes, four maybe, but at five I get all flustered when I see one hole down range with the fifth round coming up.  I've had dozens of <0.5MOA groups that were opened up with a slip on my part, with that shot opening up an otherwise one hole group out to the 0.9+MOA range.What about the Les Baer 0.5MOA guarantee. 
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Douglas is only marginally better than WOA Wilson barrels. The higher end barrels are better due to the process used to cut the rifling, the tolerances inherent to those cutting processes, and higher quality metallurgy of the steel used. |
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HOW DO YOU DEFINE "MARGINALLY BETTER" ? A 0.90 MOA GROUP COMPARED TO A 1.0 MOA GROUP, FOR EXAMPLE? A 0.90 MOA GROUP IS 19% SMALLER THAN A 1.0 MOA GROUP IN SURFACE AREA. A 0.75 MOA GROUP WOULD BE 44% SMALLER. I AM ALL FOR BETTER SHOOTING BARRELS, EVEN IF THE IMPROVEMENT IS ONLY A "MARGINAL" ONE. I THINK FRANK WHITE OF COMPASS LAKE ENGINEERING KNOWS A LITTLE BIT ABOUT BARRELS. SO DO THE ENGINEERS AT CRANE. THEY BOTH SEEM TO FEEL THE DOUGLAS BARRELS IN 5.56MM ARE A GREAT COMBINATION OF COST/VALUE. THE DOUGLAS BARRELS HAVE BEEN TORTURE TESTED IN THE EXTREME BY CRANE WITH RESULTS THAT ENDED UP IN THE DOUGLAS BEING USED IN THE SPR SERIES. WE HAVE BOUGHT OVER 300 DOUGLAS BARRELS FROM COMPASS LAKE ENGINEERING, AND WE ARE VERY PLEASED WITH THE RESULTS. WES GRANT M.S.T.N. |
You are absolutely right, there's no argument on any of your points. The poster asked what made Douglas better than the Wilson blank and IMO there isn't much. Krieger, Lilja, Badger, and a few other manufacturers, on the other hand, use superior processes and materials than Douglas and Wilson. I'm not trying to split hairs but to me 10% or less is marginal when considering the higher end is 40% or 50%. Are Wilson and Douglas good barrels? Sure. Are they the best? No. Are they a great Value? Absolutely. What was the original question?
Does "top notch" equal the best? In my opinion it does. Does "top notch" equal acceptable by Crane? Not in my opinion and that was never the question. I understand, Wes, that you sell WOA/Wilson and Douglas barrels, you use them in your builds, and generally market them on this board but that does not negate anything that I've said nor does that make me wrong. |
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I DID NOT SAY OR EVEN MEAN TO IMPLY YOU WERE WRONG. REREAD MY RESPONSE. I SIMPLY ASKED THE QUESTION: HOW DO YOU DEFINE "MARGINALLY BETTER"? I DO NOT AND HAVE NEVER SOLD WILSON/WOA BARRELS. I DO KNOW OWNERS OF WILSON BARRELS THAT GET VERY GOOD TO EXCELLENT RESULTS. I KNOW SOME WHO HAVE NOT. I AM ALSO OF THE OPINION THAT DOUGLAS BARRELS ARE BETTER. BY WHAT DEGREE I CAN'T SAY, NOR COULD ANYONE OFFER MORE THAN AN OPINION WITHOUT SOME DEGREE OF SCIENTIFIC TESTING. CRANE, HOWEVER, DID DO EXTENSIVE SCIENTIFIC TESTING OF BARRELS FOR THE SPR AND SELECTED DOUGLAS. I HAVE NEVER READ THE RESULTS, AND I DO NOT KNOW IF WILSON BARRELS WERE INCLUDED. IN CONVERSATIONS WITH THOSE THAT HAVE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TESTING, MY TAKE ON THE SUBJECT IS THAT THE DOUGLAS BARRELS SHOT WELL ENOUGH TO MEET WEAPON DESIGN OBJECTIVES. A SUBSEQUENT EVALUATION WAS A 1,000 ROUND TORTURE TEST. AFTER THIS TEST, THE DOUGLAS STILL SHOT MOA, EXCEEDING THE OBJECTIVE. AS WE ALL KNOW, DOUGLAS WAS SELECTED. I CAN ADDRESS THE RESULTS WE HAVE HAD WITH DOUGLAS BARRELS IF ONE MIGHT BE INTERESTED, IN A SEPARATE THREAD. WES GRANT M.S.T.N. |
Wes, that was a great response, thank you. This is one more reason why MSTN deserves the great reputation they have. Keep up the good work. |
Here is a little tidbit about WOA barrels from John Holliger's site.
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FRANK WHITE OF COMPASS LAKE IS ONE INDIVIDUAL WHO CAN BRING OUT THE POTENTIAL ACCURACY IN A BARREL. THAT IS WHY WE USE HIM, AS WELL, TO TURN OUT ALL OF OUR 5.56MM AND 6.8 SPC BARRELS. EVEN THE U.S.M.C. GOES TO FRANK FOR THEIR SERVICE RIFLE MATCH AND SAM BARRELS. WES GRANT M.S.T.N. |
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