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Posted: 9/25/2004 10:13:38 AM EDT
[#1]
Never heard so much B/S. LMT quality is patchy at best and the talk of bolts being designed for one type of ammo is just laughable (wake up people) the good is very good and the bad is bad. That said, a company that does not bother with its assembly techniques and outgoing QA is doing a disservice to its customers, if I spend the money LMT charge and ding the gun, that's my business, I don't expect some monkey in Milan, Il to do it for me.
HFG |
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Posted: 9/25/2004 12:49:30 PM EDT
[#2]
Damn sorry to see those pics, i leave less damage with a rag, vise grips, a nail and ball-peen hammer.h.gif
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Posted: 9/25/2004 6:18:50 PM EDT
[#3]
AKM, those pics are downright scary. I don't have a problem with a few minor scratches or dings on a new rifle that is going to be used as a work rifle but I would not accept that on a new one, no matter what I was going to use the rifle for.
On second look at your pictures, I don't think LMT is the one to blame for your messed up FSB. You can see that the taper pins were dremeled off after they were driven in. My guess is that whoever installed the handguard lost the original taper pins, found some others that were too big in diameter, found that they wouldn't go in all the way and decided to dremel off the extra that was still sticking out. That or they didn't have a hammer and punch to drive the original pins in all the way. You can see some of the unparkerized portion of the barrel, so it looks like the FSB was not properly aligned before they tried to put the pins back in. Whatever the case, whoever installed your railed handguard, should be one one held responsible. |
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Posted: 9/25/2004 6:48:00 PM EDT
[#4]
You may be underestimating a little bit...... |
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Posted: 9/25/2004 6:55:46 PM EDT
[#5]
The  meant it did not work well really at all.......sorry I should be more clear.In fact it does run "best" with M855PD, but still not nearly as reliable as ANY other upper I have ever owned: Armalite, DPMS, RRA, CMMG, Model 1, Oly Arms, or Colt. As of tomorrow the upper will be in three major pieces: 1) Complete Upper Rec'r minus B/BC/CH 2) Barrel Assembly with A2 FS, Carbine handguards, FSB and gas tube minus barrel nut 3) LMT Enhanced Bolt and Carrier. I have seen at least two LMT uppers run ALL day long. 100's of folks have seen mine choke repeatedly. I really prayed it would come back from LMT in perfect fighting form. It didn't. I DO NOT BELIEVE THIS IS A SYSTEMIC PROBLEM WITH LMT, I BELIEVE I GOT A BAD UPPER THAT HAS BEEN HAUNTED OR INFESTED WITH GREMLINS. |
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Posted: 9/25/2004 6:58:42 PM EDT
[#6]
To clarify even further, LMT's customer service was top notch and FAST!!!!! The product was finished SUPERBLY, and looked the best of all the stuff I have seen.
Only my Armalite uppers rivaled it. I loved EVERYTHING about it, except the performance, which I believe is a random failure -- which ALL companies experience. |
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Posted: 9/25/2004 7:25:22 PM EDT
[#7]
I have an LMT upper and I dont have any "complaints"
it does have a slight scuff on it, probably from a vise. That doesnt bother me, its not a priceless work of art or something its an AR-15. the other thing is like someone else said, they should boresight them. Mine took 8 clicks left to zero (with LMT BUIS) not reall "excessive" but it does mean that the FSB is slightly canted. That doesnt really matter either, it shoots point of aim now. The upper is 100% reliable... I've only shot about 300 rds thru it, but not one malfunction of any kind. I AM using the enhanced bolt and I only shoot 55gr right now... I hope that doesnt become an issue, but like I said, 100% reliable so far. its as accurate as I am. thats all that really matters. now if only I could get my damn aimpoint to work |
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Posted: 9/25/2004 7:30:59 PM EDT
[#8]
Mine took approximately 22  They are making good on it as we speak, however. |
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Posted: 9/25/2004 7:47:17 PM EDT
[#9]
yea, thats definately excessive. I remember hearing about that type of thing with bushmasters a few yrs ago. |
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Posted: 9/26/2004 4:00:56 AM EDT
[#10]
+10. I can't believe the excuses.
 Would you want a $30 filet with a bite out of it (hey, you are going to eat it anyway)? Or how about a new $30k car or truck with door ding dents and rock cracks in the window (hey, you are going to get them anyway)? Or a new $1000 scope with ring marks (hey, you are going to get them anyway)?
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Posted: 9/26/2004 5:27:33 AM EDT
[#11]
Being a picky bastard  I also agree but I can also deal with scratch and dent issues as long as:1. The dealer/seller is upfront and tells me about the issues so I can decide if I want it. 2. I get a good discount on the price since it's damaged goods. |
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Posted: 9/26/2004 7:03:48 AM EDT
[#12]
Shivan,
I really don't see why you should have to part out this upper to recoup your cost. Everyone says how great LMT's customer service is and hey, they did try and "fix" it. But, it is obviously still not running right. So, if that's the case they should have no problem with you returning it once again and replacing it with a new one at NO cost. Not giving you some BS about ammo, when no one else seems to have that problem. What would it cost them financially? very little considering what their production cost is compared to what they retail them for. And it is only one out of a 100 or more units.......... Right? Now as far as their credibility goes, they stand to lose a great deal. The relatively small bad press they will receive from this and a couple of other threads will only instill doubt into potential customers as to the quality and reliability of their products. While you may have been the one guy out of 100 to get a lemon, no one else wants to potentially be that one guy either. Especially considering the cost of their products. It would be a smart move on their part to just give you a new one before you part it out, in an effort to get whatever defective components are in it off the streets. Especially since they take great pride in marking their wares so conspicuously, thus creating another disgruntled customer. Wpns Man |
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Posted: 9/26/2004 7:12:40 AM EDT
[#13]
SO WHO BUILT THE PRIZE LMT UPPER WITH THE LARUE 7.0 FOREND?
HOW CAN YOU BLAME LMT FOR THAT? WES GRANT M.S.T.N. |
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Posted: 9/26/2004 7:14:02 AM EDT
[#14]
I concur. They should do whatever it takes to make good on it. I'm still waiting to hear bout my upper, but they've only had it for a week, which is not much time. So, we'll see. |
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Posted: 9/26/2004 7:23:06 AM EDT
[#15]
Wes, you obviously can't. I have no clue who did that work. Shivan's weapon is not the one pictured in this thread. I believe he had a whole host of other issues with the enhanced bolt, and the gun just not running right, which it doesn't sound like were resolved to his satisifaction. Of course I am just assuming that, since he seems to be in the process of parting it out. |
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Posted: 9/26/2004 8:19:04 AM EDT
[#16]
It's not a big deal.....I sell and trade so much stuff it's just another deal for me. Someone will get the parts and it will work PERFECTLY for them I am pretty sure. I bought the Enhanced bolt before the new revelation that it was "tuned" for the M4A1 with 62gr SS109 ammo. Apparently that is my main issue according to LMT. No sweat.....it's not for me. I use XM193 and Q3131a........I'll move on to something else that is designed for that choice.  I really like the LMT stuff and it is well made. |
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Posted: 9/26/2004 8:23:51 AM EDT
[#17]
So does that mean it will choke with the Black Hill 77's? I mean, I just don't buy that whole 'we tuned' it argument. I'm with HipFiredGun on that one. Has anyone ever come up with a credible explanation of how exactly its 'tuned' to run SS109? |
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Posted: 9/26/2004 9:48:08 AM EDT
[#18]
Gee, has anyone else noticed the complete absence of C4iGrant after lrbillb posted that pic link?   |
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Posted: 9/26/2004 10:19:36 AM EDT
[#19]
Gee, I go away for the weekend and find all of these people talking about me! What is even more interesting is that lrbillb posted pics of faulty gunsmith work (which I did not do) that has NOTHING to do with LMT's quality. LMT recently started puting QC tags on all of their uppers that go out so I believe that they are taking steps to fix any problems they might have had in the past.
The months leading up to Sept. have been very BUSY for me here at G&R Tactical. As many of you know, I have a full time job working C4ISR for the USAF. After 10 hour days I devote my evenings to answering e-mails, phone calls and getting orders out. The spike in business over the last couple of months (especially in the building of uppers) has left me overwhelmed to say the least. So I found a local gunsmith to help with the installation of FF tubes as I do not have time. I assumed that this person was knowledgeable in the installation of AR15 FSB's. As we can see from the pics, he is not and is NO LONGER being utilized to say the least. When I received lrbillb's upper back from the gunsmith, I did NOT take it out of the box for inspection (my error). lrbillb, called me about this problem and wanted to know if he could send it back for a new one. Without even seeing it (was at the Modern Day Marine Expo and could not get to my computer to see the pics) I told him to return it to me with no questions asked and I would fix the issue. I now have his upper and am awaiting for a new supply of 14.5" uppers from LMT so that I can build him a new one. So I believed that I was doing everything by the book and providing the best customer service I could. We had a proffesional exchange of e-mails and I didn't think that there were any issues (enough to post pics of anyway). I guess my level of service was not up to his requirements and WILL GLADLY refund his money. I would also like to comment that ALL dealers on this board make mistakes from time to time and it funny to me how some of them try to use it to their advantage.... C4 |
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Posted: 9/26/2004 9:28:56 PM EDT
[#20]
Cheers to Grant.
Sammy |
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Posted: 9/26/2004 9:43:44 PM EDT
[#21]
I don't think you could ask for much more. That's good service in my opinion. Sometimes people screw up (we ALL do it, just admit it). What seperates the men from boys is, will they make good on it? In light of how this situation was ultimately handled, I'm not sure what the point of posting those pics really was, because as Grant said, they really don't have anything to do with Lewis Machine and Tools quality issues. And yes, I DO think they have some issue that need to be sorted out. Anyway +1 for Grant. |
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Posted: 9/27/2004 2:32:08 AM EDT
[#22]
Is LMT currently the only company that is machining the M4 feed ramps into their uppers as part of the initial manufacture, and sells stripped uppers to the civilian market? It would be nice to have an alternative. Ramps added after the anodizing don't count.
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Posted: 9/27/2004 2:59:20 AM EDT
[#23]
Well, there's always Colt . . . 
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Posted: 9/27/2004 3:08:05 AM EDT
[#24]
So, can we infer from this that you did inspect all of the other uppers that this gunsmith built for you, and that they either passed inspection or were not shipped to customers? I think some members would like assurance that Irbillb's case was an isolated one. |
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Posted: 9/27/2004 4:20:48 AM EDT
[#25]
Luckily, all of my other customers got their uppers and seemed happy with them. I will now be doing all installation of FF rail systems! C4 |
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Posted: 9/27/2004 4:23:04 AM EDT
[#26]
The reason I posted this pics was not to bash a vendor....but to show that there was an LMT issue also (the original point of this thread) - the FSB sat approx 1/32" off the barrel recess meaning (I assume) that it was drilled incorreclty by LMT.
Since the upper went back to LMT on an RGA, then I think that line of reasoning is born out. lrbillb |
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Posted: 9/27/2004 4:29:24 AM EDT
[#27]
Whoa, hold on a minute there, Grant. That ain't exactly true. I have been following this thread and maintaining my silence thus far, but comments like that make it difficult to do so. I know there is at least one other upper that has the same problems as lrbillb's. And it's now with the USPS on its way back to Suffolk, VA. Sam |
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Posted: 9/27/2004 5:12:28 AM EDT
[#28]
Chiming in late here - I bought an LMT 10.5" upper from MSTN a while back. Wanted to run it with my 614. Went for the enhanced bolt and bolt carrier too. Upper came in pretty good shape, not as pristine as Rock River - a few scuffs on the park and anodize, but nothing really bad.
But the upper would not function in full auto - short stroking FTF. The guys at MSTN were GREAT about the return - a prompt credit was issued and they sent the upper and enhanced B/BC back to LMT for research. Apparently the enhanced bolt carrier is not for shorties, so they now recommend a standard BC with shorties. By then I had bought a Colt 11.5" RO933 that runs like a top. If I was looking for another shorty, I would consider LMT and MSTN. |
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Posted: 9/27/2004 5:51:58 AM EDT
[#29]
Sam, yes I know that you had some issue with your upper. If you have any pics of the problem area, please post a pic of it here! C4 |
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Posted: 9/27/2004 5:53:51 AM EDT
[#30]
You didn't buy the LMT enhanced bolt/carrier group from MSTN did you? The reason why I say that is because he knows that they CANNOT run one in a 10.5 upper and wouldn't have sold you that combo. C4 |
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Posted: 9/27/2004 7:12:43 AM EDT
[#31]
Here ya go.     Hope that works as I'm not really up on posting pix. In addition, the FH is not indexed properly. It is off center noticeably. ***************************************************************** Full Disclosure: Grant said send it back for a refund which is what I've done. So long as he follows through, all's well. (Aside from the cost of shipping it back . . .) Second, aside from the obvious "gunsmithing monkey" issues, the LMT upper looked as good as any I've seen and better than some. Of course, I didn't shoot it so I can't speak to that. HTH. |
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Posted: 9/27/2004 7:20:30 AM EDT
[#32]
No joy on the pics dude....try photobucket.com its free....
edit: nevermind I'm seeing them now...... |
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Posted: 9/27/2004 7:24:12 AM EDT
[#33]
Tried PB and Hunt101 and no luck with either. Yahoo is problematic but they seem to be working now . . .
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Posted: 9/27/2004 7:47:06 AM EDT
[#34]
Ya that's pretty bad. Yours should be the last bad upper that went out with blems. You should have stuck with your orig. order (10.5) as it was BEAUTIFUL!!! C4 |
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Posted: 9/27/2004 8:21:20 AM EDT
[#35]
I bought the whole LMT setup from MSTN. As I said, this was a while ago, I was the test case where they figured out the enhanced BC doesn't run with a shorty. |
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Posted: 9/27/2004 8:31:57 AM EDT
[#36]
Roger. I figured something was up....
C4 |
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Posted: 9/28/2004 3:15:43 AM EDT
[#37]
The A2 flash suppressor on my LMT 14.5" upper was not indexed properly, other that that it was perfect.
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Posted: 9/28/2004 5:49:19 AM EDT
[#38]
I noticed the front handguard cap wasn't on that upper, leaving a gap. Hard to tell from looking at it whether there was more gap than should be there without the handguard cap, but it didn't look like it. Jason |
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Posted: 9/28/2004 5:57:03 AM EDT
[#39]
When installing the LT FF rail systems, I always remove the HG cap as it is no longer of use. LaRue also extended the top rail "tooth to fill in some of that gap left by the removal of the HG cap. As most people know, LMT does NOT Park. under the FSB. There is now a very small seam left exposed and people believe that the FSB is not lined up correctly.... C4 |
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Posted: 9/28/2004 6:56:06 AM EDT
[#40]
I was told repeatedly that LMT did EVERYTHING Colt did including park under the FSB. I guess that gives me one less reason to buy a LMT upper instead of a Bushmaster.
Does LMT use the taller front sight base like Colt or does that have to be swapped out too? |
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Posted: 9/28/2004 7:12:04 AM EDT
[#41]
I just saw a BM barrel the other day and it wasn't park. under the FSB either. I have not used a LMT FSB yet (use PRI) so I don't know for sure.. C4 |
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Posted: 9/28/2004 7:23:55 AM EDT
[#42]
My LMT FSB is indeed marked "F".
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Posted: 9/28/2004 7:57:19 AM EDT
[#43]
Grant, I don't put the cap back on either. Didn't mean that was a problem, just making an observation
 The gap would be there whether it's an A, B, C, L or whatever The LMT front sight post is the correct height, at least on all the ones I've had through here. Jason |
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Posted: 9/28/2004 8:19:54 AM EDT
[#44]
Roger Jason. Thought I was the only one that did it! Glad to see that I am not alone... C4 |
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Posted: 9/28/2004 11:03:01 AM EDT
[#45]
I asked Chip at LMT, about park'ing under the FSB and he replied they did not do it.
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Posted: 9/28/2004 11:27:53 AM EDT
[#46]
I don't put the cap back on either. No real reason to leave it on there if you're installing a free float. |
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Posted: 9/28/2004 1:59:55 PM EDT
[#47]
i have a lmt enhanced bcg. i wished that when i had originally purchased it , some mention of it only working with m855. none at all. if you are going to market a product that is "enhanced" and it only shoots m855 or ss109, is it really enhanced? i shoot m193 to m855. if the product was advertised "will only work with m855 or ss109 , i would not have purchased it. i shoot mainly m193 and have supply of m855. i wanted the ultimate reliability out of the enhanced bcg, but i got a picky , spolied enhanced bolt that will only accept m855? and when i had sent enhanced bcg back to chip, he never mentioned i should only use m855 or ss109. i'm glad every one else is happy with lmt. but far as their product line is concerned , this little issue with my bcg has led me not to purchase anything lmt. that's just my personal opinion.
the service i received from lmt and chip was un-satisfactory. just got the bcg back with i think new springs. no update except , the springs took set, well no sh*t!!!!! i had told chip what type of upper, lower, ammo, etc.... and at the time he had never mentioned i should only run with m855.  ah f#*K it!!!! i'm done with my bitch session... i' fell much better now.. in no way am i bashing anyone or any product, it's just the plain truth in my case. meat |
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Posted: 9/28/2004 2:06:29 PM EDT
[#48]
My LMT "Enhanced" bolts have worked well with a variety of ammo from XM193 to BH 75gr.
-z |
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Posted: 9/28/2004 2:16:41 PM EDT
[#49]
My two 14.5" LMT barrels have "L" stamped into the FSBs. What's the L, same as a Colt F ?
One was swapped for a PRI, and yes its white underneath. Here's a pic someone here posted of a Bushmaster after FSB removal: 
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Posted: 9/28/2004 2:35:39 PM EDT
[#50]
Well my upper and barrel are enroute back to lmt. Chip has been excellent thus far to deal with. Grant, you had said only about 8 or so people had issues with lmt gear that you had dealt with. How were those issues handled by lmt, do they replace, fix etc? As a side note to those who feel that a few dings scratches are ok and its a working gun, I would say this. I am only going off of my experience with my RRA and Bushmaster, as well as dealings as my former departments armorer and firearms instructor and handling various other brands. My RRA was flawless as was my bushmaster. Sure you would notice a ding or tiny scratch here and there on a few guns that came through the dept., but nothing like on this lmt. Bare metal showing, spotty anodized finish and so many dents and cuts on the upper rail that I lost count on a brand new upper isn't good fit and finish. The lmt upper and barrel was by a long shot the worst looking as far as fit and finish. Nothing else even comes close. If that is acceptable to you, good on ya. But when I paid premium prices I expect a little more in that area. I never shot the upper, but I def. can't say how it performed. But I am hopeful to have the issue properly resolved with LMT. I will keep posted on my results. Thanks.
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