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Posted: 7/31/2004 8:23:03 AM EDT
I am starting a new project and have found little info one these. Were they all made from M16A1 rifles or were there any w/ no forward assist? Does anyone have or know were to find good pics of one of these? And are there any parts avalable other than the ones from total silence, just want more options.
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Duncan Long's book The M16/AR-15 Sourcebook lists a Model 607 without a forward assist and a Model 607A with forward assist. However, I don't place much faith in Duncan Long's factualness. Every picture of a Model 607 that I have seen has a forward assist. The Black Rifle book shows Model 607s with forward assists. This picture was posted to the forums a while ago. 
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Or you can go to WA Tom's website because that is the firearm he specializes in! Total Silence Inc. I have NEVER heard of an XM607A and I am going off biggerhammer.net to verify that. Hope this info helps. Sammy |
Yeouch that's a little bitty gun... |
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Gill, The examples of the XM607 I have seen, one in person - 4 others in pictures sent to me over the net and 2 in books, all of them but two had a forward assist. Here is a history of the 607 as I understand it. The weapon was introduced in 1965 with the handgaurds and buttstock that we know. It was introduced at that time with a trident flash hider ( no moderator or forward assist ) and promoted to military personell as a lightweight back up weapon for already encumbered squad weapons teams. It seems that later Army Rangers took an interest in the 607 as a primary weapon. Subsequently they added a forward assist at rougly the same time the M16 A1 was being developed, about 1967 or so. They also added a silencer, a piss poor excuse for a silencer mind you. It was eventually just called a sound moderator or moderator for short. The jury does seem to be out on the whys of the moderator issue. Some say it was used for building back pressure to increase reliability in cycling others say it was for sound reduction. After making and shooting several moderators and other short barreled M16's I say the moderator does a poor job at best of sound reduction and is completely unesacery to increase back pressure as opening the gas port does exactly the same thing. Reliably too. Another valid question is what to call this weapon? The XM designator is a military thing to indicate experimtal status and was not applied in roll stampings to the one example military weapon I inspected. The original Colt designator for this weapon seems to have varied some. It was first called a 609 in a Colt military sales brochure provided to me by Steve AKA UXB. Though I know of another Colt 609 that has a fixed stock and was presented to us as an Airforce survival gun (Small Arms Revue March 1998). The book The Black Rifle calls it the CAR15 or XM607 while other Colt sources refer to it as a model 607. This is where I landed with the term XM607 though it was probably more commonly called by the troops that carried them a model 07 or CAR15. Interesting that the display shows the solider with a dog, that is something that I saw a photo of a long time ago, a guy with a 607 and a German Sheperd. This leads me to beleive that some guys who were trained as dog handler and the 607 was their weapon. I have heard from one fellow, a AR15.com or BCR that he was a dog handler and carried the 607. Anyone with any first hand knoledge about the XM607 is encouraged to send it to me in an e-mail. I am always interested in hearing soldiers or designers stories on the creation and use of this weapon. A note for Gill - I am not sure what your issue is with me or my products but I hope I have not done something to offend you. [email protected] Total Silence Inc. webpage |
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Oh no, I didn't mean to imply that I had any problem with you or your products, they seem top notch, I was just curious if there were anymore to be found. Actually you will be receiving an order from me as soon as I can figure out when I should be returning home. I have spent several months sitting over here trying to figure out what to get as a companion for my current AR15, which has all the bells and whistles, and have decided on a 607 of sorts. Two ends of the spectrum if you will. I am now trying to figure out now which receiver, trigger, etc.. to use on the project. I am very excited about the whole thing and can't wait to get to the range with my very own after I get it all assembled. gill |
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From what I understand, the early XM177E1s (Model 609) were made with the Model 607-style sliding buttstock, but were then made with the now familiar retractable tubular stock. Does the one in the sales brochure have triangular or round handguards? The M16A1 was type-classified on 28 February 1967, but the forward assist had been on the XM16E1s since 1963. By the Air Force survival weapon, I believe you are referring to the Model 608. 
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Tom, I have an original Colt booklet on the CAR-15 and CMG-1 Specifications dated may 1965, there are two pages on this "Car-15 Survival weapon" I can fax them to you (or anyone else interested) if you like. I do not have a scanner... I would love to find one of those short grips. 10" Barrel 29" overall length JC |
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I could be mistaken, but I believe Ergo was making a stubby grip similar to that. Well, it may have had finger grooves now that I think about it, but I know it was definitely a "two finger" grip. Dawg The model 608 looks like Elmer Fudd's version of an assault rifle! 
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gill, you need to replace the front round handguard cap on a shorty barrel with a triangular handguard cap off of a std length barrel....requires taking off the front sight block for the swap. btw, totalsilence stuff is 1st rate quality, and the only source for the esoteric car15 stuff. watom is one of the good guys in the biz!....hth |
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JC, Hell yes I want a copy! I would love to be able to offer a copy of the operators manual for this weapon. [email protected]Total Silence Inc. link |
Here are some pics I have of the XM607. Oddly, These were taken in a museum in Koblenz, Germany and besides the M16A2 below, were the only M16 type in the museum.     There are a handful of Xm607s on display at the SWC (Special Forces School) museum at Ft. Bragg, NC. Some even have some sort of weird reflex sight, kind of like an early OEG sight or something. Some were even used in the famous "Son Tay raid" in Vietnam (raid to rescue POWs at camp;camp was empty)Dont have any pics of those though. |
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The last units delivered to NSW(SEAL) had the XM177E1 moderator installled. I've got a few pics of a 607's with the later moderator I'll try and post. About 65% of the 50+/- or so Colt 607's made went to NSW, the rest went to the US Army. As far as I know the rest were issued to trackers(K-9) units. Have a friend that was a USAF tracker that carried one late in 1969 while stationed in central Vietnam, he aquired it from a US Army Sgt that was headed home. Trying to get him to search through his old pics and see if he has any with the 607 in it. Another question people have is about the Fwd assist and what style of pistol grip. Some were made with and some were made without. I've got pics of each style. Colt only made them in 1965. They were using up parts from the earlier M16 so the first ones were made using M16 non Fwd assist uppers and the stubby style grip from the Colt CAR survival rifle., maybe the first 10-15 made. The last ones were made with M16A1 uppers, fullsize A1 grips and the the XM177E1 style moderator. |
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Those are the only pics I have. The isle in the museum was kind of small, so I could not get far enough. I am betting its original. This weapon is brand new. Anything that made it to an armorer would at least have some dings, etc. Also, the Army Special Forces (Green Berets) were issued the 607 also. I am seen a few Vietnam pics with them in use, and I have seen some in museums with SF history. |
CAR-15 (COLT MODEL 07)   Nationality: US Weapon Type: Carbine Caliber: 5.56 x 45 mm (.223 Remington) Muzzle Velocity: 2750 fps Length (Extended): 72.90 cm (Retracted): 66.00 cm Weight: 2.40 kg Type of Fire: Selective; Semi Automatic or Full Automatic Rate of Fire (Semi Automatic): 45 to 65 rpm (Automatic): 150 to 200 rpm (Cyclic): 700 to 800 rpm Feed Device: 20 or 30 Round Magazine Magazine Weight: 20: 0.32 kg, 30: 0.46 kg Load Time: 3 seconds RANGE Point Blank C(9+) M(12+) L(14+) Ex(18+) 2 m. 50 m. 100 m. 200 m. 300 m. Damage DM: +2 +2 +1 - - Penetration: 12 Recoil: +1 Failure: 12+ (10+ in bad conditions without maintenance) NOTE: Developed as a shortened version of the AR-15 in 1965. The sliding buttstock has a switch in the butt plate to lock or unlock the stock, allowing it to slide. To reduce muzzle blast a combination flash / noise suppressor was developed. 2 models of the flash / noise suppressor where developed during the years of 1965 and 1966. |
| That information is from a website for a pen-and-paper role-playing game. |
I don't have any idea what it was I did a search for pictures and that is what came up, nothing on there said anything about "role playing" I went straight to the page shown. I was however inundated with about a billion pages of "Airsoft" crap. That was the only page of M607 stuff I was able to dig up. Does anyone have a scan of the "CAR-15" Family pic that appeared in a book? It shows the M-16, the XM-177, a belt fed variant, the 608, and a couple of others one scoped I think. |
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Sammy, The 601 is on a pre-ban PWA Commando lower. Runs like a swiss watch. Smoother than my M4 with LMT 10.5" upper. Upper and lower were refinished in Lauer's Colt-Grey Dura-coat. Have plans to build a 607 next. Have everything I need except funding for another buttstock at the moment, but I'm working on it... |
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My 1965 COLT DB-2 5.56 Weapons brochure from July 1965 calls all the AR15/M16s CAR-15s regardless of the barrel length or stock configuration. It calls the duckbill flashider the XM601, the slotted moderator the XM605, and the solid NFA moderator the XM607. Even though it is really nothing more than a 607 with as three-prong duckbill, I feel obligated to refer to it as originally specified in the brochure as an XM601... |
How much does it weigh? |
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http://us.f2.yahoofs.com/users/411caae6z6635b927/91a8/__sr_/1c5f.jpg?phsaLHBBT9X99Tbv I took this photo of a 607 in the JFK Special Warfare Museum at Fort Bragg. This rifle was used on the Son Tay raid. There is a retired guy that works at the Special Warfare School that used this weapon on the raid. I've spoke to the guy many times. The rifle has what is essentially a first generation OEG (occluded eye gunsite). It was supposedly designed in Sweden, made in England and marketed by Armalite as the Single Point Night Sight. The raid was practiced and executed at night. At the time, the army really had no real night sight capability. Except for some large thermal stuff, most night engagements were done with tracers and flares. The raid would not permit that kind of tactics. Col Bull Simons was not happy that even his best shooters were getting poor hits at night. The search went out, and they came up with the OEG sight. I like the high-tech sight mount - electrical tape. Image that, guys were actually able to slay people without $$$$ wiz-bang mounts and rail systems. If you notice, this rifle has the slotted moderator. At some point, I would like to go down to the museum after work and ask if I can photograph the other side of the rifle. |
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Here is a close up of the sight: http://us.f2.yahoofs.com/users/411caae6z6635b927/91a8/__sr_/d6dd.jpg?pherLHBB6._3vcEp This is a closeup of the rifle at the Infantry Museum at Fort Benning that was posted earlier: http://us.f2.yahoofs.com/users/411caae6z6635b927/91a8/__sr_/4e98.jpg?pherLHBB5GiewjxC |
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That 601 looks so classic. Now it has me really conflicted between getting a SBR for looks or for function. Id kind of need a flashlight at least for a defensive gun, and maybe a CACOG. That would make it look ugly. Does the switch in the back of the stock ever bother you uxb? And have you ever had it accidentally unlock on you? |
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I can tell you from experience the stock locks up TIGHT and there is no problem with it unlocking on you. I believe there could be a detachable pad that could be installed to make the shouldering more comfortable. However, even without it, it would not bother you and you would have no problem controling the firearm. Sammy
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Quote from ArmdLbrl:
The switch is recessed and so low-profile you don't even notice it. Lock up in open or closed position is tight and positive with no shake, rattling, or looseness. It has never even moved, let alone unlock, regardless of how many rounds I've fired through it. Throwing the switch to "U", opening it, and then setting the switch to "L" has become so natural I don't have to think about, look at it, or feel for it. I can open and lock it as quick as I can a regular CAR15 or M4 stock. Same goes for closing it. A wonderful piece of engineering, but I guess in the long run...when government dollars count, they opted for a cheaper buttstock to manufacture so they could spend all that money on expensive hammers and toilet seats. If you ever get over to KY (we're famous for race horses and our Jelly...) I'll let you run it through the paces first-hand. You won't be disappointed. Regards, uxb |
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