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Posted: 11/28/2003 7:49:43 PM EDT
Why do some m4s have 4 inch fash suppressors?
Link Posted: 11/28/2003 8:16:34 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/7/2003 4:52:10 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/7/2003 7:59:23 AM EDT by Chuck]
... and note that neither the XM177E1 (shown in a very small scale photo on the left) nor the XM177E2 submachine guns (they're [u]not carbines[/u]) had [b]no[/b] bayonet lug. The E1 had a 10" bbl, the E2 a 11.5" bbl. The extra 1.5" on the later version was so the XM203 would mount. The supressor reduced the noise signature to that of the standard M16A1. To reproduce this look requires a NFA-registered Short Barrelled Rifle (SBR). -- Chuck
Link Posted: 12/7/2003 7:38:36 AM EDT
The Vietnam War era XM-177 series "submachine guns" I've seen all had the bayo lug milled off. Also, I thought the reason for the extra 1.5" was to offer better velocity?
Link Posted: 12/7/2003 7:58:42 AM EDT
My typo. The XM177series had no bayonet lug. Never paid any attention to how it was removed, but machined off makes sense since these were not only "pre-ban" they were pre GGA-68! Velocity? What difference (in 1967) would more muzzle velocity make? [;)] Mounting the XM203 Grenade Launcher was the specific reason for the 11.5" bbl, but I've never seen one mounted nor in a period photo. -- Chuck
Link Posted: 12/7/2003 8:14:18 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/7/2003 8:21:06 AM EDT by Duffy]
Chuck I hope you know I wasn't disputing your statement, for I'm no expert and I haven't even seen a real XM-177 series in person [;)], what little I know about them I got from reading. The Black Rifle only stated the 1.5" was added for better velocity, it makes no mention of mounting the XM203. Small Arms of the World does say, "The XM177E2 had an 11.5" barrel to permit grenade launching. Absence of the forward bolt assist was the only difference between the E1 and E2, which had that feature" It doesn't say however how the grenade was to be launched, I assume the authors meant the M203. In any case, I'll take what you say over a book any day [:)]
Link Posted: 12/7/2003 8:48:35 AM EDT
Have you ever see pics of the Colt CGL-4 40MM Grenade launcher mounted on either the XM177 or the Car-15? I have been looking, all I can find is of one on a M16... It is interesting to me looking back at them trying to find the "right" combo for the needs of the time. On(yet another)side note, WATOM is selling repo Car-15 stocks, put that with a 10" barrel, triangle guards, 3 prong and its 1965 all over again.
Link Posted: 12/7/2003 9:58:51 AM EDT
The XM177E1 and E2 both have forward assist, it's part of the Army spec. The USAF bought some XM177 which, like all USAF M16s of the early era lack forward assist. As I recall there were less than 600 XM177E2s purchased by the Army, so finding even photos of them is difficult. We "didn't need no stinking velocity" in 1967! [;)] The shorter the barrel, the better! -- Chuck
Link Posted: 12/7/2003 6:09:09 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/7/2003 7:52:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/7/2003 7:54:17 PM EDT by Dan0341]
Here's a pic of an XM177E2: [img]http://feistyrooster.com/XM177/609pb2.jpg[/img] Here's one with XM-148 grenade launcher. [img]http://www.mst2-vietnam.info/Stoner_ordnance_notes/M148.jpg[/img] I really like the XM177 style rifles. I wanted the early commando style myself and made a repro of the GAU-5A. Here's a pic of it: [img]http://home.ix.netcom.com/~brownhen/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/xm177e2wduracoat50.jpg[/img] Dan
Link Posted: 12/7/2003 9:31:13 PM EDT
For pics of 203s on XMs go to page 254-255 of Plaster's SOG a Photo History of the Secret Wars. I've Also seen another type of Grenade launcher on the XM. It was a Blank Firing attachment. The only pic Ive seen of this is in the collection of the Owner of Warpath Militaria In Hope Mills NC. He has a large number of original pics bought off of SOG Vets. The pic im refering to is of a "Yard" kneeling down getting ready to launch a grenade off the end of his CAR-15. I kick myself in the ass for not getting a scan of that pic, but the project I was working on at the time was dealing with Gear Mods, not weapons. :-(
Link Posted: 12/7/2003 9:46:01 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Duffy: The Black Rifle only stated the 1.5" was added for better velocity, it makes no mention of mounting the XM203.
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Which page is that? The only ref I see is that the barrel was lengthened to mitigate flash and blast. p. 231
Improvements to the XM177/XM177E1 included an additional 1.5 inches of barrel length which, when mated with a redesigned Colt noise and flash suppressor, offered the best possible trade-off between versatility and increased noise and flash.
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Small Arms of the World does say, "The XM177E2 had an 11.5" barrel to permit grenade launching.
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I believe they mean rifle grenades which telescope over the muzzle. Difficult to imagine even that given the strength of the collapsible stocks.
Absence of the forward bolt assist was the only difference between the E1 and E2, which had that feature"
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The XM177 didn't have a forward assist, the XM177E1 and E2 did. JC_, The CGL-4 (Colt Grenade Laucher) was type classified as the XM148 GL. As for the whole M203 thing, the CGL-4 was in the pipeline in ~64, the XM177E1 in late 66, the XM177E2 in early 67 and the M203 in late '68. The XM148 crapped out in mid '67 so it's possible interoperability with the XM series was a concern. There is a pic of an M203 mounted on an XM177E2 on page 250 of "TBR" courtesy of LTC Frank Conway. It uses a modified version of the M203 handguard.
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 3:47:10 AM EDT
Troy -- The XM177E1 and XM177E2 are officially nomenclatured submachine guns. They're not carbines. Nor is the M16 an "assault rifle" it's just a rifle. -- Chuck
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 6:34:16 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Chuck: Nor is the M16 an "assault rifle" it's just a rifle. -- Chuck
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Hope that worked for politicians [:D]... [:(]
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