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Posted: 9/20/2003 6:13:43 AM EDT
Not much has happend in the last several months, reference to their Solicitation titled "Mini Day Night Sight" program that also solicited a new Back-Up Iron Sight, new Rail System, Laser pointer, Optical sight, Reflex sight, flashlight, etc.
Some of you readers may remember my post a few months ago, after industry made formal presentations to a user group at Crane, about who else besides KAC was there.
This lack of action and progress on such important upgrades was difficult to understand until we found out yesterday that A.R.M.S. has protested to the GAO after their SIR System was rejected for failing to meet certain Solicitation Performance Specifications. This puts the program om indefinate "hold".
Now we don't know exactly why of course, because the A.R.M.S. protest details are all hush-hush, but I suspect that since these same user's also rejected our (KAC) RAS II design, because its bridge raised the upper receiver rail height, so it adversely affected interoperability with current SOPMOD Kit top rail mounted accessories, that the SIR design suffered the same fate because its rearward extension covers the upper receiver rail as well.
Now we did not protest the rejection of RAS II because we knew going in that RAS II's bridge was contrary to what the solicitation asked for, but we though of it as a very near term & cost effective "fix" if the Operators just wanted to upgrade their kits "a little" and achieve the free-floating barrel requirement in anticipation of receiving their SCAR-Lights in a few years.
So now any progress on the government evaluating and testing other "compliant" SOPMOD Block II rail designs like our URX, and the ones I believe were presented by Lewis Machine & Tool, Daniel Defense, etc. has been spoiled.
Link Posted: 9/20/2003 6:26:41 AM EDT
Thanks coldblue, always a delight to read your posts [:)] Wonder what 3rdtk has to say on this...
Link Posted: 9/20/2003 6:34:24 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/20/2003 10:01:30 AM EDT
Gee when I said the URX would be adopted because of its similarities to the current RAS as far as rail height and the SIR would not make it for that reason 3rdtk told me I was a moronic, pouge wanna be, know nothing, etc. I may be an armchair civilian but I still predicted the URX would win the forearm contract, Trijicon would come out with a new 1-3 or 4X adjustable ACOG and the Magpul stock would be adopted at least by some Marine units. Perhaps I am not such a dumbass after all. Please keep us informed as to what happens. I think its sad to see a company stop the progress of the entire advancement of the US military because of pure greed.
Link Posted: 9/20/2003 12:49:17 PM EDT
Am I correct in assuming that KAC is unlikely to introduce the URX product to the civilian market while it is still pending approval for block II? How many units would you need to sell for an ARFMOD submission? [:D]
Link Posted: 9/20/2003 1:28:37 PM EDT
[pound]
Link Posted: 9/20/2003 3:43:01 PM EDT
I hear the higher ups are setting the end of life date for the M4/M16 system around 2009. M203 will go earlier then that date.
Link Posted: 9/20/2003 6:33:00 PM EDT
Given that ARMS and KAC were apparently DQ'd, who was selected?? Coldblue has the honor to admit that KAC gambled by ignoring a spec and is prepared to accept the consequences of that gamble. Are we now to understand that ARMS, on the other hand, has held up the procurement of 7 upgrade items needed by our warfighters because they lost the same gamble??
Link Posted: 9/20/2003 6:42:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/20/2003 6:43:29 PM EDT by Duffy]
Originally Posted By QUICK: Given that ARMS and KAC were apparently DQ'd, who was selected??
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Is it...could it be....POF's new-handguard-and-remember-it's-$150-less-than-SIR system?[ROFL2]
Link Posted: 9/20/2003 7:04:54 PM EDT
Knight's RAS2 does not meet spec. Their URX will meet spec. My money is that it will win too. Time will tell.
Link Posted: 9/20/2003 7:39:33 PM EDT
Thanks Coldblue....great post.....Uhhh, I guess! Thanks ARMS........thanks a ton!
Link Posted: 9/20/2003 8:39:14 PM EDT
LMT's got a VERY interesting submission. -Cap'n
Link Posted: 9/20/2003 9:23:52 PM EDT
Well at least that gives me a breather in my own catch-up-upgrade-program. I need some more time to save up for the URX. On the otherhand, that sucks that everything is on hold, and will only be detrimental to our troops in need of these advancements.
Link Posted: 9/21/2003 1:04:42 AM EDT
Excuse me but WTH is URX? Any pics? MN
Link Posted: 9/21/2003 2:03:48 AM EDT
Originally Posted By M4A2_L073754: Excuse me but WTH is URX? Any pics? MN
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[img]http://photos.ar15.com/WS_Content/ImageGallery/IG_LoadImage.asp?iImageUnq=7102[/img] Stolen from Kevin B
Link Posted: 9/21/2003 4:02:10 AM EDT
Coldblue, thanks for your very informative post , always a pleasure to read you. PP out
Link Posted: 9/21/2003 4:09:45 AM EDT
Thanks Lumpy. MN
Link Posted: 9/21/2003 4:47:20 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DevL: Knight's RAS2 does not meet spec. Their URX will meet spec. My money is that it will win too. Time will tell.
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Am I missing something? I thought Coldblue said they did not submit the URX for this solicitation.
Link Posted: 9/21/2003 5:34:12 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Bartholomew_Roberts: Am I correct in assuming that KAC is unlikely to introduce the URX product to the civilian market while it is still pending approval for block II? [:D]
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URX is the standard forend on our Full-Auto/LE SR-16 "E-3" Carbine, so we are not "waiting" for anyone's decision to motivate us to the "next generation." In fact, we are about to deliver the first shipments (of complete weapons w/URX) to some Federal Agencies as we speak, with more on order for subsequent delivery. So we may be painting ourselves into the same picture as we are with the SR-25/Mk 11. By that I mean for every URX sold to the Government, that is one less available for the civilian customer. I am pushing for our "new" line of SR-15's ("fifteens signifying semi-auto/post bans) to be URX. That will include the SR-15 Match with a "rifle length" URX. I had the first one's of these in my hands the other day, but they are going to the Marine Corps for their continuing SAM evaluations. So URX is coming, so please be patient.
Link Posted: 9/21/2003 5:38:15 AM EDT
Originally Posted By QUICK: Given that ARMS and KAC were apparently DQ'd, who was selected?? Coldblue has the honor to admit that KAC gambled by ignoring a spec and is prepared to accept the consequences of that gamble. Are we now to understand that ARMS, on the other hand, has held up the procurement of 7 upgrade items needed by our warfighters because they lost the same gamble??
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No one has been selected far as we know (that includes URX). I believe everything is on hold, as the government usually does not award contracts to other vendors during a protest cycle, as this exacerbates the consequences if the GAO rules the government was in error.
Link Posted: 9/21/2003 5:42:02 AM EDT
Originally Posted By QUICK:
Originally Posted By DevL: Knight's RAS2 does not meet spec. Their URX will meet spec. My money is that it will win too. Time will tell.
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Am I missing something? I thought Coldblue said they did not submit the URX for this solicitation.
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QUICK, re-read the last sentence of my original post. We did submit URX, and as far as we know, its still in the running...
Link Posted: 9/21/2003 10:17:27 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/21/2003 12:19:55 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Troy: Now, I just need to order a few truck-loads of patience... Anyone know of a good website? [:D] -Troy
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I do, but that's back ordered and there's a wait [:)]
Link Posted: 9/21/2003 12:24:50 PM EDT
Originally Posted By coldblue: QUICK, re-read the last sentence of my original post. We did submit URX, and as far as we know, its still in the running...
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My bad, Coldblue. The first part of your post regarding the RAS II was so prominent to me that I failed to consider that you could have submitted multiple candidates for SOPMOD II. Am I up to speed(finally)? Also, any news on other program items like the lights, sights and lasers? QUICK
Link Posted: 9/22/2003 4:47:30 AM EDT
Originally Posted By QUICK: Am I up to speed(finally)? Also, any news on other program items like the lights, sights and lasers? QUICK
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QUICK, you are up to speed. Indeed we submitted several FF Rail forend concepts to SOPMOD. Always more than one or two ways to skin a cat. On new sights, lasers, etc., I only know that last week Insight Technology was awarded a Sole Source Contract for several hundred of the current kit's Carbine Visible Laser (AN/PEQ-5), and Lewis Machine & Tool: a bunch of M203's. So one explanantion may be none of the "new" submissions offered enough advantages to replace the "tried & true". Personally, I have my fingers "X'd" for the URX.
Link Posted: 9/22/2003 1:05:44 PM EDT
Coldblue, I'm curious about the URX. Is the rail fore-end capable of being mounted to any milspec flat-top M4 upper like the FF RAS? If so, will it be available as a stand alone unit or only as a complete upper? Thanks for the informative posts, Josh
Link Posted: 9/22/2003 1:27:13 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/22/2003 3:08:17 PM EDT
Originally Posted By JoshNC: Coldblue, I'm curious about the URX. Is the rail fore-end capable of being mounted to any milspec flat-top M4 upper like the FF RAS? If so, will it be available as a stand alone unit or only as a complete upper? Thanks for the informative posts, Josh
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I think the URX will go with any mil-spec upper as long as the front sight/gas block is removeable. As to availability of "kits or standalone units", I think we have to build all the complete carbines/rifles on government orders first before we have any extra parts. I am pushing for complete commercial carbines/rifles ready to ship by the Shot Show early next year, followed by complete uppers, and then maybe standalone units. But you got to remember that we are 99% military/government committed, so the commercial side is difficult to address these days given the pace of supporting the war on terrorism--both overseas and here at home.
Link Posted: 9/22/2003 7:29:48 PM EDT
Coldblue, if there is so much demand, why don't you guys just expand? The faster/more you can produce, the more money you will make. If done properly, expansion will not hurt you.
Link Posted: 9/22/2003 9:13:39 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/22/2003 9:51:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/22/2003 9:54:25 PM EDT by Green0]
[b]Oh just noticed that this is post 1913 (IE the picatinny rail post : )[/b] "AK-MIKE, GOOD BUDDY, UNFORTUNATELY, BUT OBVIOUSLY, YOU WERE NOT PRESENT FOR KAC'S 2003 SHOT SHOW GALA FACTORY TOUR. YOU SHOULD SEE THEIR PLACE IN TITUSVILLE, FL!!! 19 ACRES UNDER ROOF! PLUS, THERE'S LOTS OF GRASS TO CUT OUTSIDE." Maybe you missed the point (does KAC need grass to cut?) if there is grass to cut there is still room to expand. I'm just pissed cause I was hoping to get a URX on my rifle before deer season IE: approximately Nov 20 2003. I guess my deer rifle (whenever Bushmaster gets my fluted HBAR dissipator here) will have to be a "old school" rifle length FF RAS. [b]I saw my brother drop as many deer as me with a .223 so I sold the .300 Win Mag and bought into the Ar deer hunt game (there's nothing quicker on running deer than a well-balanced Ar-15[/b]
Link Posted: 9/22/2003 10:37:12 PM EDT
My point exactly. Even Wes has to wait for shipments from KAC. If they have that much room, they need to fill it with more machines and people so they can pump out more product. [baby]I want a URX NOW!!! [>(] Obviously since I don't run or work for a big company, I don't understand the problems and ramifications - it's just frustrating to try and understand how a company that has money can't ramp up resources to make more product when there is such demand - would just make a lot more money in my simple, simple mind. Or rather than think of money, go for the total world domination angle before giving other companies time to come up with alternative products.
Link Posted: 9/23/2003 12:51:43 AM EDT
While I, like all here, am eagerly awaiting this project I have to ask...Is there any availability of the FF RAS for the SR 25? I've been begging, pleading, and everything else for ages now to get one without luck. I was told at one time that Knights would work out a deal with owners of their guns who provided serial numbers as documetation they had an SR to accept the RAS.
Link Posted: 9/23/2003 1:42:32 AM EDT
Always a pleasure to read coldblue's posts. Now we need to hear from the other side........... 3rdtk!
Link Posted: 9/23/2003 5:51:36 AM EDT
COLDBLUE, I SAY AGAIN, CHECK REED ON THE COMPLETE POST-BAN WEAPONS. WHAT WE WANT IS COMPLETE PRE-BAN SR-16 E-3 CARBINE.......... ............ UPPERS!!! DO YOU ARF15.COM COMRADES HEAR ME? WHAT DID I SAY?!? PRE-BAN ENHANCED UPPERS!!! THAT IS WHAT WE WANT!!! S/F- WES AMEN.....chrome-lined, 14", 10", and 11" with M4 updates....I can hear my checkbook cringing already. Josh
Link Posted: 9/23/2003 2:36:54 PM EDT
Originally Posted By MSTN: EXPAND?!? AK-MIKE, GOOD BUDDY, UNFORTUNATELY, BUT OBVIOUSLY, YOU WERE NOT PRESENT FOR KAC'S 2003 SHOT SHOW GALA FACTORY TOUR. YOU SHOULD SEE THEIR PLACE IN TITUSVILLE, FL!!! 19 ACRES UNDER ROOF! PLUS, THERE'S LOTS OF GRASS TO CUT OUTSIDE. AKA, CAPE CANAVERAL. IN ONE BUILDING, THEY CAN SHOOT 300+ YARDS ... AND NOT GO OUTSIDE. IF THEY EXPAND ANY MORE, THEY'LL HAVE TO MAKE IT A NEW COUNTY. S/F- WES
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Actually its 660 yards...and not go outside. Unfortunately, the new facility is not fully up & running. However, we are balls-to-the-wall down here in Vero suopporting the war effort. Short answer is: if the United States Military would not have liberated Iraq, we would be shipping commercial URX's today. ColdBlue says: "Please forgive our lack of commercial market responsiveness, its the price of America being in a global leadership position and having the balls to lead."
Link Posted: 9/23/2003 5:37:36 PM EDT
coldblue you're a classic [:)] I and many folks appreciate your professional input. Not only do you not belittle the 1% civilian market, you come here and spend your time helping us. Looking at the posts from the owner of the Colt parts company (what is it, sawlesales or something) where he in no uncertain terms told us he didn't want to deal with us and therefore couldn't care less how we felt about his customer service, your presence here is one of the things that right the wrongs at ar15.com.
Link Posted: 9/23/2003 7:10:27 PM EDT
Hmmmm. Very interesting. This move by ARMS partially explains the delay in getting the down-select announcement on the FMBS-1 suppressor.
Link Posted: 9/23/2003 9:11:17 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/23/2003 10:43:23 PM EDT
Originally Posted By MSTN: 660 YARDS ... 600 METERS ... THAT SOUNDS LIKE MY IDEA OF THE "ULTIMATE INDOOR RANGE". NO WIND CORRECTION. NO SUN IN THE EYES. NO EXCUSES.
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That's a real "paradise" shooting range , is not it ? The new plant in Titusville is incredibly huge , have to see with your own eyes to realize what they potentially can do there when it'll be 100% working. PP out
Link Posted: 9/24/2003 4:45:34 AM EDT
Originally Posted By mach6: Hmmmm. Very interesting. This move by ARMS partially explains the delay in getting the down-select announcement on the FMBS-1 suppressor.
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FMBS has nothing to do (program or legal wise with the Mini Day Night Sight Solicitation that also contains the new RIS requirement that is the subject of the ARMS protest. Also, since I don't know of any suppressor work that ARMS has done, I don't think they are the ones dicking up that one. All I can say on that one (FMBS) is that KAC is not one of the "toads-in-the-road".
Link Posted: 9/24/2003 5:20:29 AM EDT
I'll once again add my thanks for your participation here. Your continued efforts to help keep us informed were a big factor in choosing KAC for my own equipment (that and you make good gear of course).
Link Posted: 9/24/2003 5:25:30 AM EDT
That's good to hear. I base my comment on past legal challenges wherein even directly unelated items were held up by legal challenges levied against Crane. Thanks for the reassurance. I know of several USG agencies that are holding off (or in one case just cancelled a suppressor solicitation) due to this never-ending down select. And thanks for not being one of those "toads" we know all too well.
Link Posted: 9/24/2003 8:16:57 AM EDT
I learned the hard way too many times in the Corps that "a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush." By this I mean if I was an agency that needed suppressors NOW, I wouldn't wait on the outcome of the FMBS program. I would buy the one available NOW that best met my needs. Lets assume that very soon after being selected, the new FMBS company gets a big order from Crane, and given that very few other supprerssor company's have a real surge capability like KAC's (because we have been producing thousands per year for several years and have the tooling, knowhow, material on-hand, etc.), I can't believe this new company could meet all the demands that would logically compete with an upfront big Crane buy. So if you can find a 90% solution NOW, buy it NOW so its there next week, next month, or good to go for your planned deployment to the ME next April. I also believe that except for our new (and in fact old as well) design's extended full-auto endurance, which many non-SOCOM users would ever need, that there isn't that much performance difference between the other quality manf's out there.
Link Posted: 9/24/2003 9:29:54 AM EDT
I don't think 3RdTK is affiliated with ARMS. I really do think the SIR has one thing on most other rail systems. (resistance to heating in extended full auto fire). But I can't stand the change in mounting height of optics. [b]The KAC RASII should have been adopted and we would not even have to wait for the block II RAS. The RAS II is light, affordable, easilly installed, rigid, free-floating etc. KAC should have put out a rifle length or MRE RASII. That would be a user-friendly system perfect for wierdos like me who like to have their cake and eat it too (I like to have room to use the forend in the prone unsupported, a foregrip for everything else and room to mount a Harris Bi-pod- simultaneously without anything getting in the way.) Just the foregrip and bipod on the RASII were a little too cramped. I got used to a Harris tilting bi-pod varmint hunting and I still don't know why I see pictures of snipers armed with rifles and either no bipod or a standard non-tilting Harris. The STD harris is a decent bi-pod but you'll get sick of having to dig the bi-pod legs into the dirt to get the rifle level to take a shot.
Link Posted: 9/24/2003 12:02:12 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/24/2003 1:05:55 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Troy:
Originally Posted By MSTN: COLDBLUE, I SAY AGAIN, CHECK REED ON THE COMPLETE POST-BAN WEAPONS. WHAT WE WANT IS COMPLETE PRE-BAN SR-16 E-3 CARBINE.......... ............ UPPERS!!! DO YOU ARF15.COM COMRADES HEAR ME? WHAT DID I SAY?!? PRE-BAN ENHANCED UPPERS!!! THAT IS WHAT WE WANT!!! S/F- WES
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YES!!!!!! No postbans! Don't waste time on that crap; build us some pre-ban uppers (and URXs)!!!! -Troy
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Ditto! Also get us some 16", 4150, 1/7 barrels too to go with the URX![:D]
Link Posted: 9/24/2003 2:05:26 PM EDT
16" Midlength URX 1/7 Chrome lined pre-ban please. Daddy's TA31 needs a good home [:D]
Link Posted: 9/24/2003 5:53:35 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Yojimbo:
Originally Posted By Troy:
Originally Posted By MSTN: COLDBLUE, I SAY AGAIN, CHECK REED ON THE COMPLETE POST-BAN WEAPONS. WHAT WE WANT IS COMPLETE PRE-BAN SR-16 E-3 CARBINE.......... ............ UPPERS!!! DO YOU ARF15.COM COMRADES HEAR ME? WHAT DID I SAY?!? I also vote for the pre-ban uppers and for one of your people to return the voicemails my local gun shop leaves regarding sales. Glockdog Airborne!! PRE-BAN ENHANCED UPPERS!!! THAT IS WHAT WE WANT!!! S/F- WES
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YES!!!!!! No postbans! Don't waste time on that crap; build us some pre-ban uppers (and URXs)!!!! -Troy
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Ditto! Also get us some 16", 4150, 1/7 barrels too to go with the URX![:D]
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Link Posted: 9/24/2003 6:20:13 PM EDT
Agreed. 4150, 1/7, Midlength 16.5" Chromelined upper with a URX. The perfect Utility upper [beer] -Cap'n
Link Posted: 9/25/2003 5:13:31 AM EDT
SOPMOD Block 2 Update: Additional. I just downloaded Amendment 0006 from the Crane web site, re: their MD/NS Solicitation under discussion here. It seems that one of the solicitation's other new items, a new Enhanced Combat Optical System 9to replace the 4x ACOG), must be alive and well, as Amendment 0006 is "only applicable to those offerers with whom the government has conducted negociations for the Enhanced Combat Optical Ststem." The Amendment requested "revised proposals" that were due in by 12 Sept 03. Anybody know what's happening???
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