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Posted: 8/16/2003 8:28:17 PM EDT
I am looking for some recommendations for a new trigger for my BM. I want a single stage trigger, possibly Accuracy Speaks. Thanks
Link Posted: 8/16/2003 9:14:34 PM EDT
IMHO, the JP Enterprises hammer & trigger is the nicest single stage available. Not real cheap, but easy to install (you MUST follow the instructions), readily adjustable, and good reliability. I have the whole kit in 2 of my rifles and love them.
Link Posted: 8/16/2003 9:39:28 PM EDT
I would agree w/ Russ4777, I too have the JP & would get another. Also the reset is wonderfully short when compared to the Jewel ( I know it's a 2 stage). .........Paul
Link Posted: 8/17/2003 6:16:01 AM EDT
The Accuracy Speaks trigger is a more robust and durable design due to its lack of set screws. It is not as light or crisp or as adjustable as a JP trigger, but it does eliminate the possibility of set screws failing to set.
Link Posted: 8/17/2003 9:24:09 PM EDT
This BM is my duty rifle, so I'm really not looking for adjustable triggers. That's why I was looking at the single stage Accuracy Speaks. I'm just looking for something smoother than my clunky stock BM trigger group.
Link Posted: 8/17/2003 9:49:51 PM EDT
Drop-in, non-adjustable triggers are just not going to give you the performance of a fully adjustable system, i.e. little or no take-up, creep, or overtravel. With all the different manufacturing tolerances that stack-up when you have a pile of parts from different manufacturers, it's nearly impossible for a trigger designer/manufacturer to produce something that will work in all the different parts combinations. Hence, adjustment screws make their way into the trigger designs. The setscrews in my JP's have never come loose when loctited according to the mfg instructions.
Link Posted: 8/17/2003 11:39:16 PM EDT
Never is a long time, but the chance is slim that the set screw will work its way loose. The big word is but. Do you want to trust your life on that but?? There is that possibility and you do not want any possibilities for anything to go wrong in your patrol rifle while on Duty. I definitely agree with New-ARGuy, your best bet is the accuracy speak trigger, it is light , crisp and smooth. you will have to do a little fitting, I have two AS trigger each took my about 15 minutes to get it all set up correctly. Derrick at AS will help you on the phone to get it set up correctly. It is really simple. Your initial thought of getting the Accuracy Speak triiger is correct, follow your instinct and get it for your rifle. Although I think the standard factory trigger is the best for patrol. once the blood gets pumping, the factrory trigger could be 20 pounds and your will never notice it.
Link Posted: 8/17/2003 11:48:23 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SMGLee: Although I think the standard factory trigger is the best for patrol. once the blood gets pumping, the factrory trigger could be 20 pounds and your will never notice it.
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There it is. Precision rigs which by nature have low round counts, where you are set up and prepared to take the shot, a match trigger can be a good thing. Heavy Duty patrol and combat rigs that see heavy round counts and most likely will be used when you least expect it...go factory.
Link Posted: 8/18/2003 9:36:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/18/2003 9:40:31 AM EDT by Green0]
I have a JP in an M-16. (yes you can use them in M-16's). I just set the set screws and then backed them off (mainly the overtravel screw) to give me more possible wear on my disconector before the thing wouldn't work at all. So it has some overtravel but far less than the original. [b]I used the lighter trigger spring but kept my stock hammer spring and I would say the pull is probably about 4.5lbs and nice enough to let me shoot SUB MOA (.5- 3/4in at 100yd) groups with.[/b] That is a compromise and results in a sub-match trigger pull but that way I don't have to count on a .001in of disconnector wear leaving my rifle in action. Believe me those set screws will not come out with out heating to 500degrees (there are about 10 threads with good metal to metal contact loctited). And if you know anything about small screws and loctite (lucky is a better word) if you are trying to get the screws out. I also had a Bushmaster 2 stage trigger and I really liked it and thought it may have been better than my JP (granted I didn't setup the JP totally per the instructions). The BUSHY 2-stage allowed me to shoot consistent smaller than 1/2in groups at 100yds with my RRA DCM upper using the irons. But it isn't an M-16 trigger either. [b]I don't know how different it could be than a good deer hunt. If you ever sit still for 8 hours and then shoot a running deer you will probably be left with your kneecaps occilating up and down with twitches caused by the surge of adrenaline. And I still notice the 2.5lbs trigger on my M-70 allowing me to take a shot at a 200-300yd distant Buck running through the woods. The adrenaline does, however, make a 13lbs bolt gun easier to fire offhand.[/b]
Link Posted: 8/18/2003 9:46:06 AM EDT
By the way if the set screws would loosen (something I tested without loctite)... The set screws are simply backed off and end up with your trigger pull opening back up to a STD crappy 16 trigger and still working to fire the rifle. You just lose the "Match" characteristics. If the reciever wears where the set screws make contact--- same thing more overtravel.
Link Posted: 8/18/2003 9:52:43 AM EDT
just to throw in. i have JPs and i love them. they require trigger discipline to operate in a "tactical" situation. if you don't want to fire it keep your damn finger out of the trigger guard. i always have the safety on except for the moment I am firing. very fun and super crisp. mine has no take up and over travel is 1/10 of an inch.
Link Posted: 8/18/2003 10:35:24 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
Originally Posted By SMGLee: Although I think the standard factory trigger is the best for patrol. once the blood gets pumping, the factory trigger could be 20 pounds and your will never notice it.
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There it is. Precision rigs which by nature have low round counts, where you are set up and prepared to take the shot, a match trigger can be a good thing. Heavy Duty patrol and combat rigs that see heavy round counts and most likely will be used when you least expect it...go factory.
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You guys are right on. I was lucky enough to get a fantastic, butter smooth factory trigger with my Bushmaster preban carbine. It will stay that way until I finally spring for a KAC 2-stage! My precision rifles, however, [b]ALL[/b] have aftermarket triggers!
Link Posted: 8/18/2003 11:11:43 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Green0: By the way if the set screws would loosen (something I tested without loctite)... The set screws are simply backed off and end up with your trigger pull opening back up to a STD crappy 16 trigger and still working to fire the rifle.
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Green where do you think the set screws would go?? It will be two small screw loose in your lower receiver which can get stuck in your trigger. then you have a 8 pund piece of metal you will need to break it down to get it up and running again. set screw is great for a precision rig, it has no place in a combat/patrol carbine.
Link Posted: 8/18/2003 1:29:18 PM EDT
IMHO There is NO WAY a rifle can go from 100% function check with no creep to a set screw coming loose in your lower in a single operation or shooting session. It is simply IMPOSSIBLE IMHO. The set screws in my KAC trigger have not even come out of adjustment 1/16 of a turn and for them to come loose in my lower would require multiple revolutions. This would take litteraly the entire life of the gun to get a screw to vibrate loose and even then you'd have to never check your trigger and allow it to get ridiculously creepy and never fix it. That kind of logic means we should all use AKs instead of ARs because if you dont function check or clean the rifle for 5000 rounds the AK will be 100% and the AR will jam. Lets use carburators instead of fuel injection too. Iron sights instead of optics. Etc. Untill someone can produce a mean rounds till failure with a set screw trigger vs a non set screw and specific examples I think all this talk of set screws coming loose is pure conjecture. I bet there have been USGI fire control parts that have failed at some point. But to target triggers fail more often? If so which ones? Are there match triggers more reliable than USGI? I dont think anyone can really say for a 100% scientific certainty at this point.
Link Posted: 8/18/2003 1:40:29 PM EDT
For a combat weapon my vote is for the Accuracy Speaks. It is as simple and robust as stock, but 10 times smoother. No creap in mine. Its the best mod I made on my m4. You don't have to set it up to be feather-light either. I set mine to be as heavy as possible (still lighter than stock). Its the crisp break that is nice, not the pull weight. You won't notice in a close fight, but it makes calculated precision shots and overall range life much more pleasant. IMO, its the only brand I'd put in a defensive AR other than stock. Set screws scare me. Hobbyist or Operator, reliability risk management is part of the AR game. You can draw your own lines.
Link Posted: 8/18/2003 2:24:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/18/2003 2:29:17 PM EDT by SMGLee]
Originally Posted By DevL: IMHO There is NO WAY a rifle can go from 100% function check with no creep to a set screw coming loose in your lower in a single operation or shooting session. It is simply IMPOSSIBLE IMHO. The set screws in my KAC trigger have not even come out of adjustment 1/16 of a turn and for them to come loose in my lower would require multiple revolutions. This would take litteraly the entire life of the gun to get a screw to vibrate loose and even then you'd have to never check your trigger and allow it to get ridiculously creepy and never fix it. That kind of logic means we should all use AKs instead of ARs because if you dont function check or clean the rifle for 5000 rounds the AK will be 100% and the AR will jam. Lets use carburators instead of fuel injection too. Iron sights instead of optics. Etc. Untill someone can produce a mean rounds till failure with a set screw trigger vs a non set screw and specific examples I think all this talk of set screws coming loose is pure conjecture. I bet there have been USGI fire control parts that have failed at some point. But to target triggers fail more often? If so which ones? Are there match triggers more reliable than USGI? I dont think anyone can really say for a 100% scientific certainty at this point.
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Why take the chance?? eliminate all possibilities of Murphy factor and fight to win so he can go home to his wife. KAC is a great trigger, it is used by the best this country has to offer, but then agin so is the AS trigger, both are great option and I just think the non set screw AS trigger is going to be one less oh sh!t factor involved.
Link Posted: 8/18/2003 5:22:18 PM EDT
Why not take the chance?? the benefits of this trigger system far outweigh the microscopic possibility of potential problems. one you get a target trigger. two you get a trigger with virtually no overtravel so your follow up shots are almost instantaneous. three. you can "tap dance" the trigger and you get close to 200-300RPM. controlled "full auto" fire. any moment you can go from "full auto" to a super crisp target trigger. no need to turn a selector. you can't eliminate all possibilities of Murphy factor with the AR weapons system. it pukes hot gas and powder fouling directly into the operating system! fighting to win is in a small part about the chosen weapon an a great part about combat mindset. there is no oh shit factor to a properly installed single stage "set screw" trigger. it requires no extra maintenance. it will not work loose. it will not fail. the only difference is two little threaded fasteners. if they come loose the trigger will become sloppy alerting the operator to the problem due to excessive creep and over travel. this will happen long before they unscrew them selves many turns and fall out and fail. i have shot about 3500-4000 rounds thru my JP an i have never had any type of problem. they are just as robust as any two stage trigger. why do i care. i use these weapons to shoot and protect my family and i consider them to be the next best thing to a NFA weapon.
Link Posted: 8/22/2003 7:18:24 PM EDT
With over 20,000 Jp Triggers sold......I have never heard of the screws backing out when properly installed....to the point that they fall out. And Most match rifle that are used in 3 gun matches.....will see many times more the use that a duty weapon ever will.
Link Posted: 8/22/2003 10:02:29 PM EDT
When someone like Pat Rogers of Gunsite and Force Recon/Det 1 fame states that the most common causes of malfunctions that he has seen are bad magazines and aftermarket match triggers,....I listen.
Link Posted: 8/23/2003 2:18:25 AM EDT
I have an Accuracy Speaks in one of mine. It took more fitting than I anticipated, and even when i thought i was done, it doubled a couple times out of 300 rounds test fired, so i had to do more fitting. I tried and could not stand an armalite NM trigger. The Colt enhanced trigger, that came in the CAR-A3 HBAR Elite, is very nice. Good luck finding one though..
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