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Posted: 8/13/2003 12:29:29 PM EDT
I know there are a multitude of opinions when i bring up a question like this. At the risk of opening up pandoras box, do you think the MP5 and M16-9mm variants with their inherent compactness, will continue to be popular for those who utilize them professionally will eventually go by the wayside? It seems the trend, at least in the military is that the M4 carbine and full sized M-16 in .223 is the wave of the future. I guess what I'm asking is there a continued market and need by special ops (or whomever) to need a very compact weapon system in pistol caliber, or is rifle caliber carbines the answer for most mission needs? Also seems like most LE depts are going to the 223 carbine for "long gun" needs...
Link Posted: 8/14/2003 8:16:48 AM EDT
I know the MP5-SD is popular for ship boarding where the distances are measured in feet not yards and only head shots are taken. You dont really want the blast of a 5.56 going off and the associated bullet fragments flying around with steel walls everywhere. Same for airplanes with hostage scenarios. I dont think there is much need for an MP5 in most situations when a 10.5" barreled 5.56 is available whichis essentially the same size. I can see the need for the MP5K-PDW for executive protection where concealment is needed though.
Link Posted: 8/15/2003 9:32:54 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/16/2003 6:49:26 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/16/2003 6:54:47 AM EDT by 123whisper]
Originally Posted By Troy: No 5.56mm is going to suppress like a 9mm, because the 9mm is subsonic. A 9mm also can get by with a much smaller suppressor, or with an integral suppressor that reduces overall length (think MP5-SD or Gem-Tech Talon). These will still be used as needed, especially when a silenced capability is needed. -Troy
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True, if you are talking 147 grain 9mm. Since 9mm cannot do body armor and any situation that requires a suppressed weapon is kinda special anyway, as in special not just standard troops, why not use a suppressed 45? Wouldn't the availability be there for them to get on? I know, UMP is the only one right now that is modern but we have to have some old M3's around that could be updated, right? Plus, how hard could it be to design a suppressed 45 subgun from scratch? Lets see, 5 inch barrel, suppressor sleaving back over the barrel as it takes the place of the barrel nut, some sort of good cheek weld, straight line recoil collapsible stock, rails, BUIS, sounds good to go to me. Overall length comparable to the MP5-SD. Aluminum mags like and AR15 with a hold open in the back but with roller followers like the Sterling mags, should be reliable beyond a doubt and light weight to boot. Oh yeah, add the helical dirt scrapers to the bolt like the Sterling too! What about it Troy?
Link Posted: 8/16/2003 7:54:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/16/2003 7:59:30 AM EDT by Green0]
There is a 133grain round marketed by extreme shock that will actually cycle a 5.56 AR or M-16 in full auto and is subsonic. In that case the .223 would be slightly quieter than a 9mm subsonic This round is expensive though at $73 a box of 20. But we weren't asking if it was cheap and I'm sure the gov't doesn't bat an eye at that if operators request the ammo and need it. 10.5's loaded with 77grain ammo should be effective to 250-300yds minimum. The guys that use 10.5's are smart enough to know their shortcomings and yet they still used them. The pros must outweight the cons. I think the Navy SEALs are considering switching from well used mp5's to KAC suppressed 10.5's for ship boarding. (some of those Mp5's have 260,000 to 500,000 rds through them- getting old begining to need repair/ replacement and nearing obsolecense).
Link Posted: 8/16/2003 9:42:40 AM EDT
133 grain round for and AR sounds like it would just be a helmet puncher, no more. That is if it would punch through a helmoet. It is my belief that any pointed jacketed subsonic 22 bullet is going to be pitiful on terminal ballistics. Ice Pick, no permanent cavity, no velocity, no temporary cavity(not that it matters a bunch anyways without fragments), no fragments. Just a tiny hole, maybe 1/8 inch in diameter permanent cavity. Shit, that might not even be that fast on a heart in some spots. Since it is thin muscle on the heart, it *might* tear more than body tissue, but an 1/8 inch hole isn't going to leak super fast. Just my 2 cents
Link Posted: 8/16/2003 10:48:21 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/17/2003 12:18:37 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Troy: A GREASEGUN? You've gotta be kidding me. Those things were POSs from the beginning, and were mainly intended for sticking out the turret of a tank to hose the enemy infantry (i.e., "crunchies") off of your tank. To compare this gun to an MP5 clearly shows a lack of experience with either. Fragmentation range from a 10" barreled AR with 77gr ammo is about 10-15 yards. That's acceptable for a few limited types of work, such as VIP escort or in-building CQB while the OUTSIDE of the building is surrounded by guys with longer-barreled guns, but, like the MP5, it's much more of a specialty weapon than a general-purpose one. And, when considering YOUR gun, remember that you probably don't have a company of other trained soldiers to watch your back, so you should be focusing on more general purpose items than on limited, special-purpose ones, at least for your primary weapon. For range toys, heck, get a 7" AR if you like! [:D] Just don't forget your ear protection! -Troy
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I agree, I don't have any experience with a M3, and I only have 45 rounds through a suppressed MP5, note not an SD, just an SD look alike. Recoil was very light and smooth, not a chug chug like with an UZI, with which I have about 600-700 rounds through. I enjoy shooting both. So, with good training, could a suppressed 45 handgun do the quiet work? At least in buildings? No, wait it can't, in buildings it is much more likely to be a dynamic situation. So handgun is counted out for replacement for MP5-SD. So with the current thing on needing to be able to get through body armor, which neither 9mm nor 45 ACP can do, the gun that *feels* the best is going to be the best to be used. Considering in light of the body armor issue, it would be best to use headshots with either 9mm or 45. And 9mm kills with headshots pretty well. What is the most recent time you know of military special forces using MP5-SD? Or a suppressed 45 handgun? What situations do they generally use them for? So the best general purpost gun would still be an AR carbine with a reflex can on it shooting OTM rounds? Thanks!
Link Posted: 8/17/2003 12:54:02 PM EDT
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