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Posted: 1/30/2003 6:01:23 AM EDT
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check this out- posted on the NSWC Crane website: N00164-03-R-0025 - SPECIAL OPERATION FORCES (SOF) COMBAT RIFLE (SCR) - FSC 10 – NAICS 332994 Anticipated Issue Date: 27JAN2003 Anticipated Closing Date: 19FEB03 The government is issuing this Request for Information (RFI) as part of a market survey for a Special Operation Forces (SOF) Combat Rifle (SCR). This sources sought is an attempt to gain preliminary Market Research information into the availability of a SCR. The SCR will be capable of firing standard 5.56mm ammunition as well as having the ability of being adapted to fire additional calibers of ammunition. The weapon system will use a safety selector, trigger and back-up iron sights similar to the M4A1 Carbine and possess full compatibility with the SOPMOD Accessory Kit. The weapons frame/handguard using MIL-STD1913 rails should be sufficiently robust to mount a 40mm enhanced grenade launcher module (EGLM) and withstand the shock of firing same. The SCR should be adaptable not only to other ammunition types but also to various missions performed by SOF. This could involve multiple barrel lengths and sighting methods, to perform Close Quarters Battle (CQB), Over-the-Beach (OTB) and long-range actions. The following are “draft” Key Performance Parameters of the SCR: “Draft” Requirements (threshold) (objective) Corrosion Resistance 4 days 10 days Mean Rounds between Stoppage 2000 4000 Mean Rounds between Failure 15,000 30,000 Accuracy (MOA) 1.5 @ 300 meters 1 @ 400 meters Effective Range Point Targets 500 meters 600 meters ‘’ Area Targets 600 meters 700 meters ‘’ Life Cycle (time before overhaul) 15,000 rounds 90,000 rounds Modularity (caliber) 5.56mm TBD (7.62X39/6.8/5.45X39) Modularity (Mission) Adaptable to SOF mission scenarios, CQB/OTB/General Combat/Long-range Precision Fires. The government requires that in response to this Sources Sought, interested vendors provide information regarding the following: Enhanced 5.56mm rifles that are currently available that will meet the majority of the criteria above with performance data and current production pricing. Product literature and photographs shall also be provided. Analysis of issues involved with providing the caliber modularity. Issues involved with converting a standard 5.56mm rifle to other calibers such as 5.45mm X 39mm, 7.62mm X 39mm, 6.8mm etc. Approximate development cost and design schedule for such a modular design. www.crane.navy.mil/supply/synop/03R0025.htm |
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..The plot thickens! [url]http://boards.hkpro.com/NonCGI/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=7&t=003208[/url] to quote f/ HKPRO member RAB: "I am attending the Shoothouse Instructor School from HK in W Palm Beach, FL instructors are Mike Chin and Tom Taylor. Mike said that HK will introduce an M4 upper with the G36 bolt system and piston driven but he is not sure if it will be a complete gun or just as the upper. And they will make G36 mag adapters that it can take M16 mags. The American Plant is a high priority to open it up. He said that they wish it were done yesterday. They will introduce the Upper at the Shot Show. " |
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An M4 upper made by HK with the G36 gas system built in a plant here in the US... Very interesting If HK will indeed be building a HK plant here in the US, which would probably mean they would eventually start manufacturing AR lowers as well, something like that happening would more then likely put every AR manufacture in the US out of business over night except for KAC. This looks like it could be very bad news for Colt and FN With the knowledge, financing and manufacturing capabilities ok HK I can only assume that a SPR , SMG , and belt fed upper would be soon to follow the standard upper they have on the table now. Damn, one lower receiver, 4 upper receivers that require little cleaning with the unlimited ability for mounting any optic you can think of built by one manufacture, this would probably be the final evolution of Eugene Stoners AR before it is completely replaced by something else. [img]http://www.printroom.com/_vti_bin/ViewImage.dll?userid=modo762&album_id=110553&image_id=0&show=image¶m=60668[/img] M4 w/AG-C single shot add on grenade launcher |
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M4 w/AG-C single shot add on grenade launcher That is the granade launcher the SAS adopted apparently. Unless HK makes it a clause that for their colaboration with the OICW White Elephant they have to get an SCR contract I highly doubt it. HK makes good weapons, but they surely are in a bad $$$ situation. No even the £ 82.000.000.00 pounds refurbishing of the SA80 and the extra expensive "magic" mags have helped them out. They axed the mp5,mp5-10/40 and went for the UMP, an uzi shaped in plastic, that should tell you how smart the current HK mindset is. Dont be fooled by their take over by the Detergent People, they still got the same mentality as before. I'll apologize when I see a plant in the US. |
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DBLTAP: Put every other AR mfr out of business overnight? Hardly. With the exception of the current military contractors Colt and FN, AR builders here in the States are relying on the *commercial* market to keep them in business. If HK brought an AR upper and/or lower to market, they'd have to 1) offer it to non-military/LE customers, 2) make it in a postban format, and 3) sell it at a price Joe Average could afford. Meeting all three of these conditions would fly in the face of every marketing practice HK has demonstrated in the last decade. I don't think Bushmaster, RRA, Armalite, Oly, DPMS etc. have anything to worry about... |
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Quoted: H&K are anything but a wealthy company compaired to others. KAC make the fewest of lowers than anyone I know of. Sounds to me that I just read an H&K wet dream like they have had in other years. Good Shootin, Jack I just meant that KAC does not rely on AR sales to stay a float… I to believe that this is a HK wet dream as well, and it will probably not go much further here and if it did I am sure they would not sell to civilians. But if HK did start making an AR here available to civilians and it was affordable (doubtful) I do not see how smaller companies could compete. HK is not one to pump out weapons and then have customer’s complaining about functionality. Hey... it was just a thought I guess "overnight' was a little strong... like I said It was just a thought |
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I'll believe it when I see it. Then again, even if I do, it'll probably be [i]verbotten und unobtaniumin[/i] for a civilian peon. Quoted: DBLTAP: Put every other AR mfr out of business overnight? Hardly. With the exception of the current military contractors Colt and FN, AR builders here in the States are relying on the *commercial* market to keep them in business. If HK brought an AR upper and/or lower to market, they'd have to 1) offer it to non-military/LE customers, 2) make it in a postban format, and 3) sell it at a price Joe Average could afford. Meeting all three of these conditions would fly in the face of every marketing practice HK has demonstrated in the last decade. This has been somewhat obvious for few years now. Seems as if H&K regularly goes out of its way to deny civilians anything remotely close to their newer issue designs. IMO, the SL-8 & USC45 are eunuchs, & hardly worthy of the miltary heritage from which they sprang. Not intended to offend, but can't stand those butthole stocks & that lighter-than-cement-gray color. DSA managed to maintain the integrity of the FAL design w/ their SA-58's - no exposed buttholes & castrated pistol grips on a DSA gun. H&K's SL-8 has been such a shining market success that, according to those in the know over at HKPRO, it's going to be removed from the line-up. It's a clear case of style mattering equally as much as substance. The SL-8 may have some G36-inspired features, but its gray-'cause-black-is-too-evil-colored, butthole-gripped, proprietary 10-rounds-only-'cause-you-don't-need-more-than-that magazine capacity design is no G36 - & that's precisely the problem. [i]Edditted kuz no i can spel much 2 goowud. An kuz no me speek 2 well, nither.[/i] |
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Hmmm, Sounds to me like Knights already has a good system that could fit this requirement! Best of all it is quite similar to the rifles we love so much... [url]http://quarterbore.com/kac/sr47.html[/url] The longer receiver will handle the 7.62x39 and 5.45x39 cartridge! The extra receiver length and longer mag will allow longer 5.56 bullets to increase the effective range. The KAC FF RAS system on this upper sure meets the other requirements.... Hell, I am sold... how soon can I get one? Just thinking but sounds like the KAC SR-74 is just what they are looking for... right? |
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Quoted: Hmmm, Sounds to me like Knights already has a good system that could fit this requirement! Best of all it is quite similar to the rifles we love so much... [url]http://quarterbore.com/kac/sr47.html[/url] The longer receiver will handle the 7.62x39 and 5.45x39 cartridge! The extra receiver length and longer mag will allow longer 5.56 bullets to increase the effective range. The KAC FF RAS system on this upper sure meets the other requirements.... Hell, I am sold... how soon can I get one? Just thinking but sounds like the KAC SR-74 is just what they are looking for... right? I agree, I wish I could buy one... |
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Quoted: Hmmm, Sounds to me like Knights already has a good system that could fit this requirement! Best of all it is quite similar to the rifles we love so much... [url]http://quarterbore.com/kac/sr47.html[/url] The longer receiver will handle the 7.62x39 and 5.45x39 cartridge! The extra receiver length and longer mag will allow longer 5.56 bullets to increase the effective range. The KAC FF RAS system on this upper sure meets the other requirements.... Hell, I am sold... how soon can I get one? Just thinking but sounds like the KAC SR-74 is just what they are looking for... right? It wont work with the M16 type gas tube. If they are using ammo made in who knows where, they need a gas piston. |
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Tuukka I disagree on the gas piston. but I don't think the KAC receiver is going anywhere in that project. I think a system that uses the majority of M16/M4 parts is going to get the nod. HK steel M16 mags are about the only think good to come out of HK since the 70's |
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ROBINSON ARMAMENT MILITARY RIFLES We now offer specialized small arms for military use. If we don't have exactly what you want, we can design arms to your demanding specifications. Compromise is no longer necessary. Our latest project, the RAV02 MC (Pronounced "RAVE") was very successful. It can be chambered for 5.56 NATO; 7.62x39mm; and 5.45x39mm. It was developed and tested to current military specifications. Soldiers who have shot it prefer it hands down over the M4 Carbine. Even using the 7.62x39mm round, it is as accurate as an M4 Carbine. it can digest steel or brass cased ammunition fed through AK47 magazines and drums. The Rifle Features the S.I.R. (Swan Integrated Rail System) which give the rifle Accessory Rails (Picatinny Rails) at the 3, 6, 9, and 12 O'clock positions. The reliability also surpasses the M4 Carbine. [center][img]http://www.robarm.com/images/RAV02%20FA%20RS20Aug02.jpg[/img][/center] |
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Its' true that HK is dropping the SL-8 series from the US market.HK seems to be dropping hints of its importation ending in SGN. I guess they want to see there stocks of the SL-8 sold off and probably at a higher price than the already steep MSRP. Most buyers who purchase the SL-8, ship it off to a 'smith in order for it be converted to a G-36 type clone for the same reasons mentioned (thumbhole stock,low-cap mag,ugly gray color).When ever I think of HK, I try to remember the 1980's when the HK-91,93,94 longarms were around. When I think about them now I think overpriced,near do well SL-8 and UMP or whatever it is called. |
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no frag intended but i think any guy who buys a new HK grey neutered piece of shit is the same guy who would buy a civilian hummer. take a $24k truck. slap leather interior and a Cd played in it and charge $60,000. then he proudly parks it up on the curb everywhere he goes to say "look at me world, ive got a hummer, im rugged" when really he's saying: "look at me world, i bought a truck thats 20some feet long and 14 feet wide and has the passenger space of a suzuki samurai, and i paid twice as much as it cost to make, im a moron" if you pay over $1000 for a 5.56 rifle that wont take a GI mag, has butthole stock permantly affixed and is ugly to boot then you need attention, your mom didnt hug you enough and you might have a small penis. if HK builds a plant in the US it would only be to fulfill a Govt contract just like FN and beretta built their plants. but like FN they would probably be restricted from selling to anyone other than uncle sam. and besides, why would you want to pay over $1500+ for a postban AR? because it has a gas piston? yippeeee |
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Quoted: if you pay over $1000 for a 5.56 rifle that wont take a GI mag, has butthole stock permantly affixed and is ugly to boot then you need attention, your mom didnt hug you enough and you might have a small penis. Ouch! I guess I had better keep my ARs or DvlGog will know everything there is to know about me! [peep] |
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The original rd. to be used in Stoners weapon was to be the NATO 7.62, but then the Airfoirce pushed for the 5.56, cause it was devastating on watermelons. I am betting my .02 cents on a mid cal. type most prob. 6.8. Untill you see what it does compaired to 5.56, you won't believe why I think so. 10 DIF MAKERS ARE BEING SOUGHT, BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT THERE WILL BE THAT MANY AND THERE WILL BE A DOWN SELECT FOR COMPETITION FROM WHAT EVER AMOUNT OF MAKERS START. FEASABILITY STUDIES DO NOT HAPPEN OVER NIGHT, SO DON'T FRET OVER WHAT DO NOW, NOTHING BUT WATCH AND SEE. THOSE FAMILIAR WITH VARIOUS CAL. PERFORMANCE ALREADY KNOW THE PLUS AND MINUS OF WHAT MOST RDS CAN DO. THE 6.8 IS VERY INTERESTING, AS IT CAN WORK IN CURRENT RECEIVERS WHEN BARRELS, BOLTS ETC. ARE EXCHANGED. QUICK CHANGE BARRELS ARE NOT WRITTIN IN OR OUT, AND NO CAL. IS FINAL, I JUST MADE AN EDUCATED GUESS. NOW IF WE CAN JUST GET THE ARMY AND SPEC OPS TO WORK TOGETHER AND THE AIRFORCE FLY THE PLANES WE WILL GET SOMETHING BETTER SOONER FOR A LOT LESS MONEY SPENT OR WAISTED IN R&D. GOOD SHOOTIN, JACK PS, HOW'D IS DO DIN WITH CAPS WES? |
| HK has the know-how and production expertise to build excellent weapons / systems, but they have LOTS of other problems. Overpriced, and, mostly, over-rated for what is actually delivered, not to mention the incredible arrogance of the higher-ups. If they actually get a plant built here, which I agree is almost certainly a wet dream, they will sell little or nothing that cannot be equalled by domestic designs at 1/2 the price. $3000 for a $500 pre-ban HK91/93? Incredible...much more so than $1200-1500 for an AR that can have several uppers that simply snap on. |
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I think the gun they are talking about is the Bob Davies RROC upper conversion for the M-16. This has nothing to do with HK (other than the generalization used to explain the differance that seperates it from M-4's) and is built here. [b] That said I would rather have BOB build mine (he didn't compromise on a damn thing and HK would (despite their slogan)) This guy didn't say "that costs too much"- he just built the best rifle using the best parts[/b] It has a M14 gas cylider over an M-16 barrel and uses a SKS style gas piston to hit a buffered solid bolt carrier key (propelling the bolt rearward without throwing powder residue into the action. [And it has about 6 different buffering systems that make it the smoothest M-16 ever.- including the buffered BC key, o ring on buffer to pad contact with bolt, extra buffer in BC, AAC style buffer/combined with hydraulic, spring-assisted components. This design is incredibly reliable (due to the fact that nothing inside the upper gets hot and dirty) it also has a barrel mounted heatsink that keeps barrel heat to a BARE MINIMUM. I think the design is a novel concept but I think that it's benefits are: Cooler more controlable less maintenance That said I really think that besides the cooling and controlability this is just a lazy mans M-4 (as it requires far less maintenance) Yes I would like one but if you put 2 modded out 16's next to each other (mine and his) the differance will be that his will take more auto fire before destruction- mine won't and will need more cleaning when all is said and done. I have the following parts on mine : BM 14.5HB SE Tactical Vortex SIR M ARMS #40 PRI Front sight PRI fat boy gas tube PRI M-84 handle SE Chrome BC Les BAER Chrome Bolt McFarland gas ring DPMS Chrome Extractor JP match grade FA trigger group AAC rate reducer Falcon IND ERGO grip Crane "E-stock" < yes I know that is a waist of $$ MISC BS (accuwedge, titanium firing pin etc) Links to RROC BS [url]http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2002infantry/cutshaw.pdf[/url] [url]http://www.defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=258[/url] THE INVENTOR'S E-MAIL (please don't harrass this guy with stupid questions) [url][email protected][/url] |
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