AR Sponsor
Posted: 12/12/2002 8:42:18 PM EDT
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The messages I have heard on this forum would lead me to believe that Chrome lined bores are just amazing cure-alls for M-16 problems. I would just like to know why when I clean my CM or SS barrels in my ar's they clean up fast (like 5-15 patches) and when I clean my issue M-16A2 I could pull those stupid GI cloth patches through the bore for a month of sundays and never get a totally clean patch out the other end. I've fired as much as 600rds in a day and as little as 40. It appears to me that the Chrome either wrinkles or cracks or something and fowling gets in the crevices and is a total B%&^& to get out. Actually the only time I ever got a patch to come out clean was after I thought we were done for the day and put a flash hider cap on the barrel and filled it with CLP (I don't care about wasted CLP we have it in gallon jugs anyway) and closed the bolt. then after letting it soak for about 3 hours we had a night fire and I just took the muzzle cap off (shook as much oil out of the barrel as I could and wiped the bolt more or less dry with a paper towel and fired 20 rds of every 3rd round tracer loading. that night we broke them down and cleaned them (in billets) and my patches came out clean (first pass) I don't know how but it seemed that the high pressure and lots of oil actually displaced and expelled the fowling. |
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Well partner, your in good company. Been there, done that. Your post is honest but you fail to understand that a chrome lined bore/ chamber in no way offers you cleaning effenciency or standards. Most of us have "gone back over our weapons" since range time and still have incurred the dreaded "unclean" patch. I digress. My personal opinion (shit, I had to make that statement) is that carbonization tends to favor surfaces that allow it to adhere and since molecular bonding is present and the only thing keeping you from observing disoloration and cleanliness is removal of material, I would make the statement that what you see is a gradual carbon deposit removal. No oxidation is actually involved. Just some unsightly discolorization. |
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Army and Marine Corps basic training notwithstanding, there is no reason to get a perfectly clean patch out of these barrels. For other than inspection purposes just running a Boreshake and CLP down the bore a couple of times will be all you need. The bore of the M16 series holds less than 3/4oz of fluid as I recall, so the technique described isn't real wasteful if an inspection is going to be conducted. (Assuming it works as described.) -- Chuck |
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I used to try to get a benchrest quality clean prior to qualifying (superstition I guess) I learned that these barrels are poor enough in quality that they shoot the same or better dirty. I had all but given up on cleaning the barrel when I got the results that I mentioned above. For inspection we just run patches down the barrel till we get lucky and there isn't and visible debris or patch scraps left in the barrel. (then we waste the rest of the time getting dust out of the lower and buttplate screws, front sight post, under the pin that holds the dustcover door on, in that recess that is formed by the junction of the A-2 stock and buffer tube near the reciever, scraping the carbon off of our muzzle crowns inside the flash suppressor(and probably damaging our muzzle crowns) etc. etc. etc. IF YOU GET MY DRIFT WE CLEAN A LOT OF CRAP THAT DOESN'T MATTER AT ALL. But if I was Eugene Stoner I would have modified the design to fill in all the little spaces where dust and sand get lodged. |
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I have to chime in on this subject as well, being one who has shot out my share of various barrels. Chrome lined, stainless, and plain old carbon steel. I've toasted 14 barrels in my time on earth, most of them on various AR15 pattern rifles, a few on hunting/varmint rigs too. Most of the barrels I've replaced on non ARs just didn't shoot up to my expectations and they weren't toasted (I mean did I need another excuse to see my buddy Dan Lilja just down the road in Plains :D )I buy at least 2 barrels a year for my rifle collection, and have for the last 8 years AR barrels are a funny thing... It usually takes me 80-100,000 rounds to destroy a chrome lined 1:9 twist barrel (usually I buy Bushy's and have them NON-HBARed by a gunsmith, I like them M4 or origional A1 diameter under the handgaurds.) I usually just clean them with a boresnake and Hoppes #9. They hardly ever come squeaky clean, and I've never seen one mirror polished inside (from conventional cleaning procedures.) When you inspect a chrome lined barrel after 80K with a good borescope (my gunsmith buddy over east of the divide has one of the Gradient Lens ones), you'll usually see most of the wear in the throat. In fact the chrome lining is usually flaking away. Even then you won't notice a huge accuracy or velocity difference. Once that flaking and cracking makes it about an inch up the barrel, its pretty well fucked, thats usually when I start to see groups open up to 3" or so at 100. But then I only expect my AR's to do 1 1/2" to 2" with irons at 100 yards with 55 gr FMJBT's loaded in various commercial once fired brass (I have ammo cans loaded 1000 rnds each, all same headstamp, mostly RP and FC.) One observation I've made, if you get any barrel hot enough to fry an egg on routinely, it ain't going to last long. As an expirament, I cleaned one of my Bushy 1:9 chrome lined barrels with my Outers Foul Out. It took two runs on the machine to get it absolutely mirror shined up, squeeky clean. I took it to the range, and it was still only capable of 1 1/2" groups with 55gr FMJBTs. Moral of the story... Don't waste more than 20 minutes cleaning your chrome lined barrel after a 500 round session at the range. The Stainless barrels I've used were good for about 100 rounds before accuracy started to suffer. None of these were "match grade" barrels. Most of them were Wilsons I believe. It took quite a while to clean them up, and even then I never had one last longer than 50K. On a clean barrel with low mileage, these barrels average 1 1/4" with my 55 gr FMJBT load (with irons) for the first 50-75 rounds. After that many rounds they start to open up QUICK. You've got to ask yourself one question... How accurate has it got to be????? Can you actually shoot iron sights well enough that you need 1" accuracy at 100 yards (or 6" at 600 yards?) I dunno know about you guys but if I've got any iron sighted AR in my hands, if I can see it with the naked eye.... Its in trouble (inside 600 yards anyhow) Even if you're talking about flat top varmint rigs. My buddies AR has a Kreiger barrel, and with his load, it does groups in the .400's at 100 yards for about 50-60 rounds before it needs cleaned. While he's scrubbing his ass off because he's afraid to wreck his 400 dollar barrel, I'm still making hits on p-dogs at 400 yards with my 1:9 twist Bushy V-Match. I burn up 200 rounds to his 50... I shoot FOUR TIMES as many varmints on the same outing. My rifle is just as accurate at round 400 on a dirty barrel as it is at round 1 on a semi-clean barrel :) My varmint AR averages 3/4" groups at 100 with Hornady 60 gr V-Maxs. I can live with that. And I do love spending time behind the trigger. Cleaning is for the women folk :D :D |
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[b]what have them non-HBARED! I wish my M-16 had a HBar barrel (these a-2's things get warm around the chamber with 40rounds) by the time you get to 250-400 all you can touch is the magazine and pistol grip OUCH![/b] I read a review in handloader (I think) that had a couple of match grade barrels and they proved that out to 2500rds(the limit ofthe test) the clean barrel shot within a 1/10in of the cleaned one. By 2500 though the dirty barrel was badly scarred internally and the cleaned barrel was relatively shiny (seems to say if you have money buy barrels but if you don't- clean them. My issue M-16 has seen about 6000rds and is shooting about .75-1in at 25meters! Pretty piss poor (should be about 3.5in at 100m. I'm not impressed with Colt Barrels. But mine has been heated cherry red (from front sight post forward) I still qualified 37/40 (by the grace of God) but the rounds that miss now are like 1.5-3ft from the target and I wonder how in the hell they went over there when my sights are over here.? My 11.5in SS Wilson will do 1/8at 25YARDS and about 1/2-3/4 at 100yds (the shorter barrels are normally more accurate.) I had a RRA 1/8 SS that shot .40in at 100yds. and I met a guy at the range who consistantly shot 1/3in with a Bushmaster (DCM) but he had a 3x colt scope and I had iron sights |
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