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Posted: 9/17/2002 7:40:13 PM EDT
Yes I have another question about the S.I.R. once again. I just got the first pictures of the R.A.S.II, and boy does it look familiar. So who is the original developer of this design,A.R.M.S. or Knight's ? Thanks, S.I.R. fan, soldier1
Link Posted: 9/17/2002 7:52:18 PM EDT
That's easy, ARMS, it's been in production for about two years and was introduced to the military as it was developed in co-operation with the end users before the Ft. Benning SOP MOD CONF.
Good Shootin, Jack
Link Posted: 9/19/2002 9:48:12 AM EDT
Uncle Dick, I remember that Ft. Benning Conference to which you refer. You didn't get there until the third day with your S.I.R.
KAC presented the original RAS II on the second day, provided hand-outs with photo's , etc. to military attendees, so if this conference is to be the cronological benchmark you make it to be, then KAC with its RAS II was "first".
I was not able to attend your A.R.M.S. product presentation 2 years ago at that conference because they were closed to all but US Gov., however, I beieve that at that time, you only had the SIR version that required the removal of the delta ring. That is to say, required a 3rd Echelon Armoprer to install. Is that not correct, Uncle Dick?
Remenmber, even two years ago, RAS II allowed the user to install a MWS Rail Forend and attain the benefits of the free-floating barrel in about a minute by Operator level personnel. Our final design is even beter that the first one.
ColdBlue sends...
Link Posted: 9/19/2002 3:52:21 PM EDT
How's it goin', Dave?
Link Posted: 9/19/2002 7:51:34 PM EDT
Benning is not a bench mark just the event that you brought up still factually inaccurate and you are wrong on your other guess!
Jack
Link Posted: 9/20/2002 6:38:33 AM EDT
Hey Dick, you posted the Ft. Benning date as the benchmark, not me.
Say hi to Sharron for me. I will always remember the hospitality you and your family extended to me when I visited you in West Bridgewater.
ColdBlue sends...
Link Posted: 9/20/2002 6:40:10 AM EDT
Still in the 10-Ring, thank you.
ColdBlue sends...
Link Posted: 9/20/2002 7:35:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 3rdtk:
That's easy, ARMS, it's been in production for about two years and was introduced to the military as it was developed in co-operation with the end users before the Ft. Benning SOP MOD CONF.
Good Shootin, Jack



From what read into the post, he did bring it up, but he said SIR was BEFORE Ft. Bennning, not at it. These posts seem to be dripping with sarcasm, I hope that can stop. The board is blessed to have two such knowledgable people contributing.
Link Posted: 9/20/2002 9:31:21 AM EDT

....

These posts seem to be dripping with sarcasm, I hope that can stop. The board is blessed to have two such knowledgable people contributing.



I agree.
Link Posted: 9/20/2002 10:02:51 AM EDT
Well, of course it was developed before the conference. So was RAS II.
Dick, you are not the only developer who talks and listens to these users. We were obviously sent down the same "free-floating rail system" path, by many of the same users, as you were many months ahead of the Benning conference. Common sense would tell anyone that two such clever men, you and my boss Reed Knight (and Doug Olson), would develop very similar solutions, especially since the intended host weapon is the same, as well as the overall goal.
I just believe KAC did it better, somewhat beacuse of the RAS II's ease of installation, which was a key criteria when we won the USSOCOM RIS and then the US Army RAS competitions.
Consequently, 6 years later, there are over 125,000 of KAC rail systems "officially in service", with 2,000 more shipped every month. By that I mean with the below listed Nation Stock Numbers (NSN)mean that the chain of command "approved" system is Safety Certified, Supported by the system, tech date packages on file at Rock island, elements in every day training programs, included in the latest weapon operator's manuals, etc.
NSN's to KAc Designed & manufactured Rail Forends:
1005-01452-6771, M5 RAS for M16A2/A3/A4
1005-01-452-3527, M4 RAS

And I repeat my earlier question, did not the S.I.R. you showed at Benning require removal of the delta ring?

Our initiial design (presented at that conference)was installable by the user with a 1/8" allen wrench in about a minute.
Dick, if you would really like to help meet these evolving post RIS/RAS fielding user's requirments, encourage them to initiate a real NDI program, draft an operationally germane requirements document IAW DOD Inst. 5000, level the playing field, and let the best FF RAS win.
ColdBlue is Dave Lutz (VP Military Operations)at Knight's Armament Company sending...
Link Posted: 9/20/2002 10:09:03 AM EDT
Well, of course it was developed before the conference. So was RAS II.
Dick, you are not the only developer who talks and listens to these users. We were obviously sent down the same "free-floating rail system" path, by many of the same users, as you were many months ahead of the Benning conference. Common sense would tell anyone that two such clever men, you and my boss Reed Knight (and Doug Olson), would develop very similar solutions, especially since the intended host weapon is the same, as well as the overall goal.
I just believe KAC did it better, somewhat beacuse of the RAS II's ease of installation, which was a key criteria when we won the USSOCOM RIS and then the US Army RAS competitions.
Consequently, 6 years later, there are over 125,000 of KAC rail systems "officially in service", with 2,000 more shipped every month. By that I mean with the below listed Nation Stock Numbers (NSN)mean that the chain of command "approved" system is Safety Certified, Supported by the system, tech date packages on file at Rock island, elements in every day training programs, included in the latest weapon operator's manuals, etc.
NSN's to KAc Designed & manufactured Rail Forends:
1005-01452-6771, M5 RAS for M16A2/A3/A4
1005-01-452-3527, M4 RAS

And I repeat my earlier question, did not the S.I.R. you showed at Benning require removal of the delta ring?

Our initiial design (presented at that conference)was installable by the user with a 1/8" allen wrench in about a minute.
Dick, if you would really like to help meet these evolving post RIS/RAS fielding user's requirments, encourage them to initiate a real NDI program, draft an operationally germane requirements document IAW DOD Inst. 5000, level the playing field, and let the best FF RAS win.
ColdBlue is Dave Lutz (VP Military Operations)at Knight's Armament Company sending...
Link Posted: 9/20/2002 8:43:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/20/2002 8:52:07 PM EDT by NYPatriot]
Maybe I'm a little slow on the up-take, but am I reading this thread correctly?

Is 3rdtk none other than Dick Swan of ARMS fame?

Am I the last dumb F@#K to figure this out???
Link Posted: 9/21/2002 6:42:48 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/21/2002 7:10:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By NYPatriot:
Maybe I'm a little slow on the up-take, but am I reading this thread correctly?

Is 3rdtk none other than Dick Swan of ARMS fame?

Am I the last dumb F@#K to figure this out???



I do not believe that he is.

As for the rest, I can't answer that.
Link Posted: 9/28/2002 9:49:21 PM EDT
My question for Mr. Lutz: (no sarcasm or vitriol here either in all seriousness)

When is the RAS II going to SHIP? At least ARMS is actually shipping something at the present time. I however am holding off on any FF system until I can compare heads up between
the SIR and RASII. I really wish you guys
would just put it out :)

Did Knights ever get an offical website up as well?

Thanks!
Link Posted: 9/28/2002 10:33:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/28/2002 10:33:44 PM EDT by themao]

Originally Posted By JLM:
My question for Mr. Lutz: (no sarcasm or vitriol here either in all seriousness)

When is the RAS II going to SHIP? At least ARMS is actually shipping something at the present time. I however am holding off on any FF system until I can compare heads up between
the SIR and RASII. I really wish you guys
would just put it out :)

Did Knights ever get an offical website up as well?

Thanks!



LMAO! ROFL!

You see, this is my problem with Knight's as well. Every "assault type weapon" dealer in the St. Louis area I've met hate you guys pretty much. I will be brutally honest by saying that your customer service does not have that great of a reputation, and I could care less how many RIS/RAS systems you sell to the military, given their wonderful political track record at military procurement. I care about what works best.

When I bought an ARMS 40, I called ARMS up and had some questions related to co-witnessing and what not and it was very easy for me to, to get a hold of a human being to talk to.

If I could get a full auto M4 with a suppressor, I'd immeadiately get a S.I.R. for that purpose (close range, 100 yards in, tactical light, etc.....great home defense gun ). As for a post ban, I'm an iron sight biased guy anyway, and I feel that the S.I.R. is for special people for special missions like SF or police SWAT, etc., not for every day use if I was a solider. I'd want durable iron sights (fixed carry handle) and a 20" barrel to knock down rag heads at 200-300 yards.

My worthless US govt. fiat money two cents,

themao
____________________________

Got ice picks?
Link Posted: 9/29/2002 6:53:40 PM EDT
Well, I got an answer to my own question by reading the thread in the Optics forum :) Shipping soon :) I am excited to see it, a lot more so than the S.I.R, which I was admitedly pretty excited to see when it was first released. I have a local dealer (Cals Sporting Armory) so I suspect that I will soon get to see them side by side.

When the FF RAS came out, I was more impressed with it than the SIR, but since you can't put it on a postban gun with a pinned a welded break without changing the barrel, I was somewhat disappointed. But with RASII, that won't be a problem.

Dave, we all appreciate your input here BTW. Its cool that you take the time to visit the board, so thank you!
Link Posted: 9/30/2002 8:28:01 AM EDT
JLM, you can put a SIR (C or M version) on any standard carbine upper. It DOES not require removing the front site. Certainly not the C model, and not even the M model.
Link Posted: 9/30/2002 8:46:41 AM EDT
could someone post a link to both so i can see them to ascertain the diffrence? looks wise
Link Posted: 10/1/2002 6:21:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By new-arguy:
JLM, you can put a SIR (C or M version) on any standard carbine upper. It DOES not require removing the front site. Certainly not the C model, and not even the M model.



Neither does the RAS II. Matter of fact, you dont have to remove the delta ring, either.

havoc
Link Posted: 10/1/2002 6:52:11 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/1/2002 6:54:55 AM EDT
Exactly, RAS II and SIR C are both drop on upgrades. Just remove the handguards of your flat top upper, and drop them on. Very easy.

Easiest way to mount the SIR M model is to dremel the delta ring off, remove it along with the weld spring and handguard snap ring, and then drop it on.
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