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Posted: 10/15/2017 10:03:34 PM EDT
[#1]
No. you should check it out.
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Posted: 10/15/2017 10:07:06 PM EDT
[#2]
Quoted:
Had rifle for 6 months bought new . I was cleaning it and noticed a little play . I can actually turn the barrel slightly. I ordered a receiver clamping block ( ( wheeler ) I already had a barrel nut wrench and torque wrench . Is it normal to have a little play between the barrel pin and the groove/ slot it goes into ? Not normal. This happens when the gun is assembled, and they don't torque it 3 times to seat the mating threads (most common), or sometimes when it lines up perfectly at the minimum torque spec. Over time they sometimes loosen up. I see that happen with Aluminum barrel nuts much more often, however. |
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Posted: 10/15/2017 10:10:01 PM EDT
[#3]
You should not be able to turn the barrel at all. Look for a loose barrel nut, bent or sheared index pin, a too-large index pin notch in the upper receiver, or (very unlikely) loose barrel extension. However, the barrel nut was probably not torqued on much past minimum.
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Posted: 10/15/2017 10:18:44 PM EDT
[#4]
There should be exactly zero play in the barrel
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Posted: 10/15/2017 10:22:23 PM EDT
[#5]
Probably indexed to tight for the next tooth so they backed it off. I had a sig that was 28ftlb from factory. Probably need different barrel nut or shim.
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Posted: 10/15/2017 10:23:04 PM EDT
[#6]
I'm pulling the barrel tomorrow. I'll report back. I 'll have to wait for my receiver clamping vise block to reinstall and torque correctly . It's loose. But I can turn the barrel slightly. That has me worried. If the pin is snug in the slot , I shouldn't be able to even turn the barrel. Am I correct in that?
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Posted: 10/15/2017 10:25:38 PM EDT
[#7]
Ok I see where y'all state no movement in the barrel at all. Thanks.
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Posted: 10/15/2017 10:27:25 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm pulling the barrel tomorrow. I'll report back. I 'll have to wait for my receiver clamping vise block to reinstall and torque correctly . It's loose. But I can turn the barrel slightly. That has me worried. If the pin is snug in the slot , I shouldn't be able to even turn the barrel. Am I correct in that? |
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Posted: 10/15/2017 10:36:16 PM EDT
[#9]
The slot/pin fit has some wiggle room, but with a properly-installed barrel, you should not be able to move it by hand, even when using maximum force. The fact that you can just casually turn the barrel is evidence of a very loose barrel. I would contact Colt and see if they will accept the upper for repair.
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Posted: 10/16/2017 5:46:38 AM EDT
[#10]
I have already ordered the block clamp for the receiver, and cringe about mailing it off with my schedule . While not happy with Colt for this , its a good excuse to order some stuff frpm brownnells and Midway
 . Ive owned AR's since 1985 . I owned many and still have 5 ea. Ive never taken a barrel off one. All was factory rifles.Now I can . Im pulling the barrel this evening when I get home. I have a barrel nut wrench from years ago. I worked for a shop that made them for Olympic Arms. I have a at least one . Till tonight Cheers Wardawg
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Posted: 10/16/2017 5:14:16 PM EDT
[#11]
Just to check before you wrench on it. Are you sure the barrel is moving and not the hand guards or hand guard retainer or something else? Are holding the upper without the lower attached in one hand and the FSB in the other hand?
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Posted: 10/16/2017 6:05:39 PM EDT
[#12]
Barrel is pulled. I didn't need a barrel nut wrench to remove it. I spun it off by hand. What the moron did was turn the nut till it stopped by hand and then turned it backwards till it lined up with the gas tube through hole. They backed it up 1/4 a hole. That was the play I was feeling. Now QUESTION for you smart guys. Whats the odds it will line up with the next hole before 80 ft pounds ??? If it don't will buying another nut solve the issue. Is so what brands to look for to buy. Thanks for hearing me out ole wise hive . WarDawg
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Posted: 10/16/2017 6:08:50 PM EDT
[#13]
I love colt products. But this bites ass. I'm a factory worker myself. Have been for 30 years . Either they hired morons and tier 2 employees or they running diversity up the productions ass. Its a simple task to do. Monkeys for christ sake could be trained to do this particular job.
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Posted: 10/16/2017 6:08:57 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Barrel is pulled. I didn't need a barrel nut wrench to remove it. I spun it off by hand. What the moron did was turn the nut till it stopped by hand and then turned it backwards till it lined up with the gas tube through hole. They backed it up 1/4 a hole. That was the play I was feeling. Now QUESTION for you smart guys. Whats the odds it will line up with the next hole before 80 ft pounds ??? If it don't will buying another nut solve the issue. Is so what brands to look for to buy. Thanks for hearing me out ole wise hive . WarDawg |
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Posted: 10/16/2017 6:15:18 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Whats the odds it will line up with the next hole before 80 ft pounds ??? |
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Posted: 10/16/2017 6:41:25 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I love colt products. But this bites ass. I'm a factory worker myself. Have been for 30 years . Either they hired morons and tier 2 employees or they running diversity up the productions ass. Its a simple task to do. Monkeys for christ sake could be trained to do this particular job.
Was everything greased when you took it apart? Either way, make sure that you put grease on the threads when you put it back together. Also, don't forget to grease the outward facing flange of the barrel extension... Greasing the flange is a very important step in the assembly process that is rarely mentioned. |
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Posted: 10/16/2017 6:47:08 PM EDT
[#17]
Sent you an IM.
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Posted: 10/16/2017 7:22:35 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This barrel and upper receiver must have got passed Colt's barrel installation machine... Colt doesn't have people installing barrels anymore, mostly because of the loose barrel nut issue and to speed up production of course.
Was everything greased when you took it apart? Either way, make sure that you put grease on the threads when you put it back together. Also, don't forget to grease the outward facing flange of the barrel extension... Greasing the flange is a very important step in the assembly process that is rarely mentioned. |
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Posted: 10/16/2017 8:03:04 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Is TW25 good enough grease. Yes it had grease or at least a oily substance on it when I got it apart. Thanks Wardawg |
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Posted: 10/16/2017 10:26:18 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Is TW25 good enough grease. Yes it had grease or at least a oily substance on it when I got it apart. Thanks Wardawg I prefer to use TS-70 moly paste but most prefer to stick with the mil-spec moly grease AeroShell 64 (once known as AeroShell 33 MS). |
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Posted: 10/17/2017 5:41:55 AM EDT
[#21]
I was trying to think of greases I had on hand. I have M1 garand grease pots , Kuber NBU-12 , standard wheel bearing grease, TW25B gun action grease, ALG thin grease. If I need to run to wally world for something different I will. TIA Wardawg
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Posted: 10/17/2017 6:08:56 AM EDT
[#22]
These last couple posts of Colt a4 arent giving me much confidence considering I will be picking one up tomorrow that i ordered friday.....loose barrel nut and incorrect roll marks.
I used Aeroshell 33 when i assembled my Colt upper. |
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Posted: 10/17/2017 6:29:01 AM EDT
[#23]
Any quality wheel bearing or high temp moly grease works, all have their favorite. Hell, you could probably use vaseline and be fine.
Just make sure it is lubed to aid in torquing. |
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Posted: 10/17/2017 8:18:52 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Any quality wheel bearing or high temp moly grease works, all have their favorite. Hell, you could probably use vaseline and be fine.
Just make sure it is lubed to aid in torquing. |
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Posted: 10/19/2017 7:08:04 PM EDT
[#25]
ordered two little 2 oz pots of Areoshell 33/64 from UmbrellaCorp off of Amazon . I'm waiting for my barrel wrench to come in anyways. Thanks Wardawg
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Posted: 10/19/2017 8:00:20 PM EDT
[#26]
I've used this on my last 4 builds. I may have enough for 250 more.
 
Seriously tho, I like it alot TOO BAD I CANT WORK A CELL CAMERA. 
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Posted: 10/19/2017 8:57:40 PM EDT
[#27]
Great.
Another grease thread.
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Posted: 10/20/2017 10:50:41 AM EDT
[#28]
Most of the ones I have assembled had a slight amount of play.
You should never back off on the nut to get alignment, always start over. AFAIK you can push to 100 ft/lbs without breaking anything, but the threads are alum. I might try tightening and loosening a few times but, after that I would try a different nut, face the upper, or use a timing shim before going much over 80 ft/lbs. YMMV |
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Posted: 10/20/2017 11:11:08 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I love colt products. But this bites ass. I'm a factory worker myself. Have been for 30 years . Either they hired morons and tier 2 employees or they running diversity up the productions ass. Its a simple task to do. Monkeys for christ sake could be trained to do this particular job. |
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Posted: 10/20/2017 7:27:51 PM EDT
[#30]
I'm glad you have the problem resolved. There are lots of knowledgeable people on this site. That's why I love it!
You should contact Colt and tell them about the problem. They can't fix it if they don't know about it |
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Posted: 10/20/2017 7:29:44 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm glad you have the problem resolved. There are lots of knowledgeable people on this site. That's why I love it! You should contact Colt and tell them about the problem. They can't fix it if they don't know about it |
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Posted: 10/21/2017 10:54:19 AM EDT
[#32]
My agency received a shipment of m4a1s from colt several years ago that had some with loose barrel nuts , easy fix but sort of ridiculous, this is why you inspect all weapon systems before issuing them. There will always be lemons no matter who builds em.
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Posted: 10/21/2017 8:32:21 PM EDT
[#33]
Maybe ask Coldblue for some "I was there and I know" real life stuff on the ins and outs. he knows the deal on 3 Strikes and Your In.
I and my son BOTH had S&W M&P15's where the barrel loosened. And in my research on the DTIC website, I've found this has been an issue with the M16 since the beginning. There are assembly SOP's that preclude this, but sometimes {we saw a youtube or How It's Made??? video demonstrating same} the things are slapdashed together and the result is... WBS. Wobbly Barrel Syndrome. |
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Posted: 10/21/2017 10:38:00 PM EDT
[#34]
It's standard to hand tighten the barrel nut for the delta ring barrel nut. What's supposed to happen is that the gas tube is supposed to keep the delta ring from loosening. I hand tighten mine for my build with a Troy Alpha rail. This was a couple years, and 1000s of rounds later. No barrel loosening and it hasn't moved any.
The spec calls for 30lbs torque, but no more than 80lbs. 30lbs torque can be done with a really strong grip. Most people tighten down the delta ring by hand, then torque it by wrench to move it one notch to align. It usually takes about 40lbs torque to move it one notch like that. For my free float builds, yes, I ensure I get at least 40lbs torque as they will loosen. I got a Geissele MK4 rail and in the instructions, they mention a certain torque spec, but also says that the original delta rings were hand tightened to indexed. Sounds like Colt messed this one up if they tightened it, then loosen it to align. |
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Posted: 10/21/2017 10:42:15 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's standard to hand tighten the barrel nut 30lbs torque can be done with a really strong grip. |
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Posted: 10/21/2017 10:56:59 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Uh... no. Just no. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
It's standard to hand tighten the barrel nut 30lbs torque can be done with a really strong grip. |
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Posted: 10/22/2017 11:48:01 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yeah, not happening. Do not do this. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
It's standard to hand tighten the barrel nut 30lbs torque can be done with a really strong grip. The only reason that I even tried that method was because I was having issues with the popular barrel nut wrenches of the time (DPMS, Smith Enterprises and 3 pin GI) bending up barrel nut teeth before ever even reaching 30 foot pounds. It was a last ditch effort to stay in the AR building game that failed me, so I gave up building ARs until 2015 or 2016 when a couple of much better barrel wrenches finally became available. |
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Posted: 10/22/2017 12:28:41 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Maybe ask Coldblue for some "I was there and I know" real life stuff on the ins and outs. he knows the deal on 3 Strikes and Your In. I and my son BOTH had S&W M&P15's where the barrel loosened. And in my research on the DTIC website, I've found this has been an issue with the M16 since the beginning. There are assembly SOP's that preclude this, but sometimes {we saw a youtube or How It's Made??? video demonstrating same} the things are slapdashed together and the result is... WBS. Wobbly Barrel Syndrome. |
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Posted: 10/22/2017 12:41:35 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Before I knew better back in 2004 or 2005, I decided to try the "hand tight then move to the next notch" assembly procedure because it was highly recommended by forum member Homo_Erectus. It felt to me that it probably only resulted in about 15 foot pounds of torque and it resulted in the barrel nut coming loose within 30 rounds. The barrel nut ended up leaning on the gas tube which caused the gas key on bolt carrier to hang up on the gas tube and it wouldn't allow the bolt to go fully into battery. The only reason that I even tried that method was because I was having issues with the popular barrel nut wrenches of the time (DPMS, Smith Enterprises and 3 pin GI) bending up barrel nut teeth before ever even reaching 30 foot pounds. It was a last ditch effort to stay in the AR building game that failed me, so I gave up building ARs until 2015 or 2016 when a couple of much better barrel wrenches finally became available. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
It's standard to hand tighten the barrel nut 30lbs torque can be done with a really strong grip. The only reason that I even tried that method was because I was having issues with the popular barrel nut wrenches of the time (DPMS, Smith Enterprises and 3 pin GI) bending up barrel nut teeth before ever even reaching 30 foot pounds. It was a last ditch effort to stay in the AR building game that failed me, so I gave up building ARs until 2015 or 2016 when a couple of much better barrel wrenches finally became available. Also to be fair, I was part of those discussions, and built hundreds of uppers over the years, and rebuilt many correcting builds from other gunsmiths, police department "armorers", and joe-bubbas. In 2004, there are MANY quality wrenches available. I never bent a single tooth on a steel barrel nut, ever. I have damaged some early YHM style aluminum barrel nuts using a two-prong DPMS wrench, until I switched to a better barrel nut wrench style. |
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Posted: 10/22/2017 2:43:02 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
To be fair - Homo_Erectus did not "recommend" that procedure, he simply stated it could be done, in most cases would have the same result as the proper torquing, and if your barrel nut was loose, it would be contained by the gas tube and would not create an unsafe (however less accurate) condition. Also to be fair, I was part of those discussions, and built hundreds of uppers over the years, and rebuilt many correcting builds from other gunsmiths, police department "armorers", and joe-bubbas. In 2004, there are MANY quality wrenches available. I never bent a single tooth on a steel barrel nut, ever. I have damaged some early YHM style aluminum barrel nuts using a two-prong DPMS wrench, until I switched to a better barrel nut wrench style. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
It's standard to hand tighten the barrel nut 30lbs torque can be done with a really strong grip. The only reason that I even tried that method was because I was having issues with the popular barrel nut wrenches of the time (DPMS, Smith Enterprises and 3 pin GI) bending up barrel nut teeth before ever even reaching 30 foot pounds. It was a last ditch effort to stay in the AR building game that failed me, so I gave up building ARs until 2015 or 2016 when a couple of much better barrel wrenches finally became available. Also to be fair, I was part of those discussions, and built hundreds of uppers over the years, and rebuilt many correcting builds from other gunsmiths, police department "armorers", and joe-bubbas. In 2004, there are MANY quality wrenches available. I never bent a single tooth on a steel barrel nut, ever. I have damaged some early YHM style aluminum barrel nuts using a two-prong DPMS wrench, until I switched to a better barrel nut wrench style. I don't remember there being a lot of standard barrel wrench options back then really. Out of the three I had, the one that gave me the least trouble was the 3 pin GI wrench, but even with that one the teeth on the standard steel barrel nuts would start bending somewhere between 45 to 60 foot pounds. I have had no such issues with my new wrenches though, and I have been very close to the upper torque limit more than a few times since I have started building again. There are only a couple of things that it could have been... Bad barrel nuts, bad barrel wrenches or maybe a combination of the two, because my procedure hasn't really changed much at all. |
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Posted: 10/22/2017 3:29:01 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I thought it was called the Homo_Erectus barrel assembly method, that's who I remember it coming from anyway... Maybe my memory is a bit off on that perhaps? I don't remember there being a lot of standard barrel wrench options back then really. Out of the three I had, the one that gave me the least trouble was the 3 pin GI wrench, but even with that one the teeth on the standard steel barrel nuts would start bending somewhere between 45 to 60 foot pounds. I have had no such issues with my new wrenches though, and I have been very close to the upper torque limit more than a few times since I have started building again. There are only a couple of things that it could have been... Bad barrel nuts, bad barrel wrenches or maybe a combination of the two, because my procedure hasn't really changed much at all. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
It's standard to hand tighten the barrel nut 30lbs torque can be done with a really strong grip. The only reason that I even tried that method was because I was having issues with the popular barrel nut wrenches of the time (DPMS, Smith Enterprises and 3 pin GI) bending up barrel nut teeth before ever even reaching 30 foot pounds. It was a last ditch effort to stay in the AR building game that failed me, so I gave up building ARs until 2015 or 2016 when a couple of much better barrel wrenches finally became available. Also to be fair, I was part of those discussions, and built hundreds of uppers over the years, and rebuilt many correcting builds from other gunsmiths, police department "armorers", and joe-bubbas. In 2004, there are MANY quality wrenches available. I never bent a single tooth on a steel barrel nut, ever. I have damaged some early YHM style aluminum barrel nuts using a two-prong DPMS wrench, until I switched to a better barrel nut wrench style. I don't remember there being a lot of standard barrel wrench options back then really. Out of the three I had, the one that gave me the least trouble was the 3 pin GI wrench, but even with that one the teeth on the standard steel barrel nuts would start bending somewhere between 45 to 60 foot pounds. I have had no such issues with my new wrenches though, and I have been very close to the upper torque limit more than a few times since I have started building again. There are only a couple of things that it could have been... Bad barrel nuts, bad barrel wrenches or maybe a combination of the two, because my procedure hasn't really changed much at all. Interesting on the teeth issue. I always used a typical armorers wrench of the day, such as the DPMS. Here is my picture from 2003: 
It has teeth that engage almost 100% of any barrel nut. The only way that could ever be a problem, is if you didn't hold it tight and square against the barrel nut, let it slip off, it could round some teeth when it slipped. But that was always operator error. 
Around 2006, I bought a PRI wrench, and have used that for almost every install since, unless the nut required a proprietary wrench. PRI's for AR15, Armalite AR10, DPMS/SR25 AR10: 
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Posted: 10/22/2017 4:46:28 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I think Homo_Erectus was trying to drive home the point that you needed get bent over the axles around torque settings if you didn't own a torque wrench. I don't remember him advocating that it was the best way to do it.... but I digress. The problem with experienced people is they develop a feel for torque over years time, and that isnt helpful to someone who does not have that experience. Then assume some of the things they learned over decades is "common sense" and that is obviously not the case. That's why some of the best masters make terrible teachers. Interesting on the teeth issue. I always used a typical armorers wrench of the day, such as the DPMS. Here is my picture from 2003: http://www.kevinholman.com/upper/default_files/image006.jpg It has teeth that engage almost 100% of any barrel nut. The only way that could ever be a problem, is if you didn't hold it tight and square against the barrel nut, let it slip off, it could round some teeth when it slipped. But that was always operator error.
Around 2006, I bought a PRI wrench, and have used that for almost every install since, unless the nut required a proprietary wrench. PRI's for AR15, Armalite AR10, DPMS/SR25 AR10: https://s12.postimg.org/sden7v7hp/screenshot_169.jpg That's a pretty neat wrench collection you have there... I never really got into barrel nuts that needed proprietary wrenches (I was never part of the handguard of the month club), though I did have to go and buy a crows foot wrench that would fit a Seekins NOXS barrel nut not to long ago for a build I had to do for my brother... It was kind of neat but not really for me. I have only had a total of 8 barrel wrenches (not including the crows foot) until I finally found the ones that work best for me. I was going to buy one of the PRI wrenches as well, but I just didn't like the idea of having to take the FSB off every time that I needed to install or remove a barrel. |
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