AR Sponsor
Posted: 3/29/2016 10:34:58 PM EDT
| Why would anyone want chrome lined barrels anymore when melonite seems better in every category except maybe the cleaning aspect. Melonite seems to be more corrosion resistant and make for better accuracy, Makes the barrel overall stronger and tougher and last longer. So why are people still buying chrome lined? IS it becuase people are afraid of change? OR what am i missing? |
|
Quoted:
Why would anyone want chrome lined barrels anymore when melonite seems better in every category except maybe the cleaning aspect. Melonite seems to be more corrosion resistant and make for better accuracy, Makes the barrel overall stronger and tougher and last longer. So why are people still buying chrome lined? IS it becuase people are afraid of change? OR what am i missing? Chrome lined is still Mil Spec. So there's that. CHAD |
|
Quoted:
Why would anyone want chrome lined barrels anymore when melonite seems better in every category except maybe the cleaning aspect. Melonite seems to be more corrosion resistant and make for better accuracy, Makes the barrel overall stronger and tougher and last longer. So why are people still buying chrome lined? IS it becuase people are afraid of change? OR what am i missing? I am an advocate of nitride (Melonite) barrels, but you have grossly oversimplified an extremely complex subject. Neither is stronger than the other. Nitride is, however, far more corrosion resistant and protects the entire barrel, not just the bore. It does preserve the contours of tbe rifling better and can be more accurate, theoretically, but may not in practice, since the quality of the barrel still is extremely important. It will not make a poorly made barrel accurate. It actually cleans as well as chrome. The big difference is that chrome lined 4150 CMV barrels, especially if cold hammer forged, appear to resist throat erosion better in high sustained rate of fire situations. There is hot and unresolved debate about ultimate round count barrel life. Nitride does dramatically extend barrel life compared to untreated steel. We are still collecting data in comparison to chrome lining on total round count. There are a huge number of variables that make such comparisons difficult and controlled tests to eliminate the variables are extremely expensive. Where high rate of fire is not a concern and absolute maximum round count is not your goal, a good argument can be made in favor of nitride. But, the process is complex and not all companies are producing high quality results. Different techniques produce different degrees of penetration and differing final hardness that can approach hard chrome or can be considerably lower in hardness. You can't generalize. The process produces temperatures in the hot salt bath approaching that which can cause barrel steel to lose its temper. Exact control of the process is essential and it must be done by people who know what they are doing. Better companies repeat the heat treatment temper after nitriding, but not all do. I favor nitride over CL, assuming the underlying barrels are high quality, use the same materials and precision, the company knows what it is doing, AND where sustained high rate of fire is not needed. I think it is likely to become milspec in the future. But, your statement is a simplistic over generalization of a complex matter. |
|
Quoted:
Why would anyone want chrome lined barrels anymore when melonite seems better in every category except maybe the cleaning aspect. Melonite seems to be more corrosion resistant and make for better accuracy, Makes the barrel overall stronger and tougher and last longer. So why are people still buying chrome lined? IS it becuase people are afraid of change? OR what am i missing? I personally like chrome lined better. Ive seen nitrated AK barrels rust out and pit where as CL AKs would clean out with out much issue so I don't place much faith in the corrosion resistance. Chrome bores can be extremely accurate , its also my understanding nitrated bores last longer than untreated barrels but not as lone as a CLB. That said you would probably be hard pressed shoot either one out. |
|
I think MS556 summed it up perfectly.
A lot of promise with nitride, but the jury is still out. I'd venture to guess that once premium barrel makers such as FN start producing nitrided barrels that they may...MAY...just replace the phosphated/cl barrel as the barrel of choice. |
|
Quoted:
I personally like chrome lined better. Ive seen nitrated AK barrels rust out and pit where as CL AKs would clean out with out much issue so I don't place much faith in the corrosion resistance. Chrome bores can be extremely accurate , its also my understanding nitrated bores last longer than untreated barrels but not as lone as a CLB. That said you would probably be hard pressed shoot either one out. Quoted:
Quoted:
Why would anyone want chrome lined barrels anymore when melonite seems better in every category except maybe the cleaning aspect. Melonite seems to be more corrosion resistant and make for better accuracy, Makes the barrel overall stronger and tougher and last longer. So why are people still buying chrome lined? IS it becuase people are afraid of change? OR what am i missing? I personally like chrome lined better. Ive seen nitrated AK barrels rust out and pit where as CL AKs would clean out with out much issue so I don't place much faith in the corrosion resistance. Chrome bores can be extremely accurate , its also my understanding nitrated bores last longer than untreated barrels but not as lone as a CLB. That said you would probably be hard pressed shoot either one out. If nitride rusted, it was not done properly. It is over ten times more resistant to corrosion in salt water immersion than hard chrome. Glock slides and barrels are a good example. Glock calls it Tennifer. Anyone can do a shitty job of what they try to call "nitride" and get poor results. Done properly it will out perform CL in corrosion protection by a wide margin. While chrome bores "can be extremely accurate" you will never see such a barrel in serious benchrest or long range precision shooting. You will, however, see nitride treated match grade stainless barrels. The only real advantages are throat erosion in high rate of fire and possible total round count. |
Because that is what LMT puts into their guns. I didn't choose it, but I'll take the longer life of a barrel and a quality chrome job any day. That way you don't loose accuracy, like cheap barrel chrome jobs. 
They even cryogenically treat their barrels. Like IV8888's meltdown vids... a Faxon barrel failed for no realy reason. Started melting and even burst at the same number of rounds that the LMT barrel looked in perfect condition. But yes, the LMT barrel was a little thicker, but I don't think that was biggest difference. I want to see a nitrided barrel next. ETA: I might be an unpaid LMT shill, a gun snob, and many other things; but I don't make a thread like it's closure on something that has been solidly proven; merely arfcom discussed. And I don't sponge up what I hear and ask why people are idiots for not following what I've recently heard. 
|
|
Quoted:
Yep, and I'm certain we will do it again next week too. Quoted:
Quoted:
Didn't we just do this last week? Yep, and I'm certain we will do it again next week too. Isn't this last week again? Is this a copy and paste from the search function? Where's Gamma with his "not this shit again" avatar? |
|
Quoted:
Like IV8888's meltdown vids... a Faxon barrel failed for no realy reason. Started melting and even burst at the same number of rounds that the LMT barrel looked in perfect condition. But yes, the LMT barrel was a little thicker, but I don't think that was biggest difference. I want to see a nitrided barrel next. What do you think was the biggest difference then? The LMT used a more medium profile similar to a Colt Socom profile, which was developed after standard M4 barrels failed in the exact same spot as the Faxon did (from a round ripping through a sagging barrel behind the gas block). Add in the fact that the Faxon was stainless and you don't really get a fair comparison. No AR15 barrel is in danger of melting either, despite the use of the term "meltdown". I think all things being equal (material, barrel profile, etc.) the nitrided Faxon would come out about the same as a CL barrel in that test. |
|
Quoted:
Well I didnt exactly mean to make an in depth post about as you can obviosuly tell from my original post lol. And my whole point was obviously with "all things being equal, nitride is better". There doesnt seem to be any disadvantages to nitride treatment The number one killer of barrels is heat, nitride does not protect the barrel from heat, chrome lining does. The benefits are reaped during rapid fire that is why the military will not go to nitride anytime soon. If you plan on using your rifle like it was intended, then chrome lining is better than nitride. If you plan on just slow fire plinking, then nitride is good enough. Imo, nitride shines in other areas where hard chrome has failed like bcg's. |
|
Quoted:
The number one killer of barrels is heat, nitride does not protect the barrel from heat, chrome lining does. The benefits are reaped during rapid fire that is why the military will not go to nitride anytime soon. If you plan on using your rifle like it was intended, then chrome lining is better than nitride. If you plan on just slow fire plinking, then nitride is good enough. Imo, nitride shines in other areas where hard chrome has failed like bcg's. Quoted:
Quoted:
Well I didnt exactly mean to make an in depth post about as you can obviosuly tell from my original post lol. And my whole point was obviously with "all things being equal, nitride is better". There doesnt seem to be any disadvantages to nitride treatment The number one killer of barrels is heat, nitride does not protect the barrel from heat, chrome lining does. The benefits are reaped during rapid fire that is why the military will not go to nitride anytime soon. If you plan on using your rifle like it was intended, then chrome lining is better than nitride. If you plan on just slow fire plinking, then nitride is good enough. Imo, nitride shines in other areas where hard chrome has failed like bcg's. chrome didn't fail in bcg's, it was too expensive and time consuming to get it right but a properly done chrome bcg is the absolute best of all worlds chrome is harder, as other stated, it protects the throat from erosion better, protects the barrel from wear and heat, and is better for sustained rates of fire. As for ss barrels that are nitrided, this is only AFTER they've been broken in and dialed in to the liking and load of the comp shooter and even still, the barrel life is not really extended as those guys change barrels at regular intervals |
|
I'm an advocate of no lining whatsoever. I shoot match grade stainless and chrome-moly barrels and when given the choice I go naked. The only chrome lined barrels I own are Colt and LMT rack grade rifles and I ride them like a mail order bride. I don't give a damn about rack grade barrels so they get abused in combat style training and similar tournaments.
If you want the most accurate barrel go naked and shoot match grade bullets. If you want a blaster barrel buy it lined and shoot whatever you want knowing it's not going to set any range records. If you're one of those people who buy the cheapest ammo available simply buy a chrome lined barrel and don't worry about it. |
|
The main reason people still buy CL is because of marketing. when BCM or Colt or who ever markets their "mil spec" AR15 the un educated think that is the best there is the military uses it there is no better. I was in the boat years ago and I just recently learned about melonite or whatever name you want to call it. After my research into melonte barrels and finding that they are usually cheaper because the process is cheaper and just as reliable durable and accurate or more accurate than CL barrels is why I have decided to go to melonte.
If FN and Colt decided to start doing melonte over CL and the mil did the same thing CL would be looked down on as crap |
|
Quoted:
The number one killer of barrels is heat, nitride does not protect the barrel from heat, chrome lining does. The benefits are reaped during rapid fire that is why the military will not go to nitride anytime soon. If you plan on using your rifle like it was intended, then chrome lining is better than nitride. If you plan on just slow fire plinking, then nitride is good enough. Imo, nitride shines in other areas where hard chrome has failed like bcg's. Quoted:
Quoted:
Well I didnt exactly mean to make an in depth post about as you can obviosuly tell from my original post lol. And my whole point was obviously with "all things being equal, nitride is better". There doesnt seem to be any disadvantages to nitride treatment The number one killer of barrels is heat, nitride does not protect the barrel from heat, chrome lining does. The benefits are reaped during rapid fire that is why the military will not go to nitride anytime soon. If you plan on using your rifle like it was intended, then chrome lining is better than nitride. If you plan on just slow fire plinking, then nitride is good enough. Imo, nitride shines in other areas where hard chrome has failed like bcg's. Nailed it. |
|
Quoted: The main reason people still buy CL is because of marketing. when BCM or Colt or who ever markets their "mil spec" AR15 the un educated think that is the best there is the military uses it there is no better. I was in the boat years ago and I just recently learned about melonite or whatever name you want to call it. After my research into melonte barrels and finding that they are usually cheaper because the process is cheaper and just as reliable durable and accurate or more accurate than CL barrels is why I have decided to go to melonte. If FN and Colt decided to start doing melonte over CL and the mil did the same thing CL would be looked down on as crap |
|
Quoted:
Pot, meet kettle. Quoted:
Quoted:
The main reason people still buy CL is because of marketing. when BCM or Colt or who ever markets their "mil spec" AR15 the un educated think that is the best there is the military uses it there is no better. I was in the boat years ago and I just recently learned about melonite or whatever name you want to call it. After my research into melonte barrels and finding that they are usually cheaper because the process is cheaper and just as reliable durable and accurate or more accurate than CL barrels is why I have decided to go to melonte. If FN and Colt decided to start doing melonte over CL and the mil did the same thing CL would be looked down on as crap Not following... Are you saying I'm choosing melonite because of marketing? |
|
Quoted: Not following... Are you saying I'm choosing melonite because of marketing? Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The main reason people still buy CL is because of marketing. when BCM or Colt or who ever markets their "mil spec" AR15 the un educated think that is the best there is the military uses it there is no better. I was in the boat years ago and I just recently learned about melonite or whatever name you want to call it. After my research into melonte barrels and finding that they are usually cheaper because the process is cheaper and just as reliable durable and accurate or more accurate than CL barrels is why I have decided to go to melonte. If FN and Colt decided to start doing melonte over CL and the mil did the same thing CL would be looked down on as crap Not following... Are you saying I'm choosing melonite because of marketing? I've done plenty of research, I own both chrome lined and melonite barrels. I shoot a lot, and I still prefer chrome. It has nothing to do with what the military uses
|
|
Quoted:
I think calling someone uneducated because they prefer chrome over melonite, and then claiming melonite is better in pretty much every way is a little unfair, because that's not true. If you do believe that's true, maybe you have fell for marketing. I've done plenty of research, I own both chrome lined and melonite barrels. I shoot a lot, and I still prefer chrome. It has nothing to do with what the military uses Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The main reason people still buy CL is because of marketing. when BCM or Colt or who ever markets their "mil spec" AR15 the un educated think that is the best there is the military uses it there is no better. I was in the boat years ago and I just recently learned about melonite or whatever name you want to call it. After my research into melonte barrels and finding that they are usually cheaper because the process is cheaper and just as reliable durable and accurate or more accurate than CL barrels is why I have decided to go to melonte. If FN and Colt decided to start doing melonte over CL and the mil did the same thing CL would be looked down on as crap Not following... Are you saying I'm choosing melonite because of marketing? I didn't state it melonite was better I said it was just as good in terms of durability and accuracy if not better in the accuracy which I know is debatable but in theory yes and is usually cheaper. The OP said it was better in every way. Uneducated people as in those who just want it because it's marketed as mil spec and that's what the military uses. Which I admit I was part of that crowd. If you make an informed decision to choose one or the other good job but those just getting into ARs going I want this because it's mil spec may not know there are other options that is what I mean by uneducated Chrome line barrels may be better for high rate of fire full auto stuff but for most people who aren't shooting full auto I believe melonite is the better choice. It is at least equal to cl and it's usually cheaper |
|
Quoted:
My newest barrel is neither chrome lined nor melonited  just parkerizedit seems as if a lot of barrel offerings are parkerized chrome moly [and not chrome lined] these days, I have been looking for a chrome lined 7.62x39 barrel for a bit, green mountain lists one, but its m4 profile and I was hoping for an hbar or simply govt profile [ trying to imitate a Colt 6830 so no need for a m203 notch ;-) ] I have been steered towards a melonited barrel with an "enhanced" barrel extension, seems like a plus for feed reliability with the x39 round so im gonna give it a try. doug |
| What is the difference between nitride and melonite? I know I read about it before, in fact I think I started a thread about it a long time ago, but I see a few people in this thread using the terms interchangeably. Today I noticed PSA has 2 almost identical uppers, one says melonite, the other says nitride, what's the difference? |
|
Quoted:
What is the difference between nitride and melonite? I know I read about it before, in fact I think I started a thread about it a long time ago, but I see a few people in this thread using the terms interchangeably. Today I noticed PSA has 2 almost identical uppers, one says melonite, the other says nitride, what's the difference? Melonite is a trademarked term used for one particular branding of a type of nitride treatment. There are several different ways to "nitride' steel. The general type most frequently discussed for firearms, is called QPQ SN nitride (quench, polish, quench, salt bath nitride). Beyond this general statement, the chemistry and techniques get pretty technically deep. It can be done in ways other than hot salt bath immersion. Other trade names are Tennifer (used by Glock). CMMG used the term WASP for a while. S&W used the term Melonite under license, but began doing the process themselves and now no longer desires to pay the license fees and uses a more generic name. A rose by any other name is still a rose, I believe Shakespeare said. But, in this case there are different processes, different lengths of immersion, different heat ranges, different quenching processes with different results.. While they all surface harden steel at the molecular level, the degree of penetration and the resulting surface hardness can and does vary considerably. |
|
Quoted:
I didn't state it melonite was better I said it was just as good in terms of durability and accuracy if not better in the accuracy which I know is debatable but in theory yes and is usually cheaper. The OP said it was better in every way. Uneducated people as in those who just want it because it's marketed as mil spec and that's what the military uses. Which I admit I was part of that crowd. If you make an informed decision to choose one or the other good job but those just getting into ARs going I want this because it's mil spec may not know there are other options that is what I mean by uneducated Chrome line barrels may be better for high rate of fire full auto stuff but for most people who aren't shooting full auto I believe melonite is the better choice. It is at least equal to cl and it's usually cheaper Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The main reason people still buy CL is because of marketing. when BCM or Colt or who ever markets their "mil spec" AR15 the un educated think that is the best there is the military uses it there is no better. I was in the boat years ago and I just recently learned about melonite or whatever name you want to call it. After my research into melonte barrels and finding that they are usually cheaper because the process is cheaper and just as reliable durable and accurate or more accurate than CL barrels is why I have decided to go to melonte. If FN and Colt decided to start doing melonte over CL and the mil did the same thing CL would be looked down on as crap Not following... Are you saying I'm choosing melonite because of marketing? I didn't state it melonite was better I said it was just as good in terms of durability and accuracy if not better in the accuracy which I know is debatable but in theory yes and is usually cheaper. The OP said it was better in every way. Uneducated people as in those who just want it because it's marketed as mil spec and that's what the military uses. Which I admit I was part of that crowd. If you make an informed decision to choose one or the other good job but those just getting into ARs going I want this because it's mil spec may not know there are other options that is what I mean by uneducated Chrome line barrels may be better for high rate of fire full auto stuff but for most people who aren't shooting full auto I believe melonite is the better choice. It is at least equal to cl and it's usually cheaper What about those of us that ARE educated, and choose chromed barrels because it has worked very well for some seventy plus years now? Does that make us blind followers of marketing? (Proven history be damned and all that I guess.) Just because I, and many others, choose one over the other doesn't mean we're ignorant. We just know what works. Does "something else" work, such a nitrideing? Sure. But that doesn't render everything else as sub-standard. Just because you obviously prefer one over the other don't mean you're somehow smarter or better informed than us "uneducated". We are aware of nitride treated barrels, we just prefer to stick with what has performed well since long before most of us were born. It does still work. And it works very well. |
|
You are just trying to twist words now. . I never said chrome lining was sub standard, never said I was smarter or more informed
The whole purpose of the this forum is to ask these questions and for people to get informed. What about those of us that ARE educated, and choose chromed barrels because it has worked very well for some seventy plus years now? then my post obviously shouldn't apply to you All my Ars prior to the two i own now were all Chrome lined because thats all I knew the first AR I built my self was a BCM because i wanted as close to mil spec as I could. Then later I started seeing some melonite barrels but I always thought they were something less than what chrome is. When I started to build my latest rifle I did more research into melonite barrels and realized what the befits were even these very forums helped me decided on what to go with based on input from "educated" people who new more than I did |
|
Quoted:
You are just trying to twist words now. . I never said chrome lining was sub standard, never said I was smarter or more informed The whole purpose of the this forum is to ask these questions and for people to get informed. What about those of us that ARE educated, and choose chromed barrels because it has worked very well for some seventy plus years now? then my post obviously shouldn't apply to you All my Ars prior to the two i own now were all Chrome lined because thats all I knew the first AR I built my self was a BCM because i wanted as close to mil spec as I could. Then later I started seeing some melonite barrels but I always thought they were something less than what chrome is. When I started to build my latest rifle I did more research into melonite barrels and realized what the befits were even these very forums helped me decided on what to go with based on input from "educated" people who new more than I did just admit you made an error in judgement and call it a day. I'm pretty educated, very well versed on the AR platform and I prefer chrome but each, chrome, nitride, and unlined all have a purpose |
AR Sponsor