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Posted: 1/11/2016 5:22:05 PM EDT
| Hello guys. I am working on a build and have a barrel lining question. As I understand it, milspec calls for a chrome lined barrel so they can run thousands of rounds and a non-lined barrel may have about a 3000 round life. How does a chrome moly or a stainless steel barrel which I assume are unlined compare to the chrome lined? I also understand that anodized, phosphate, nitride, and melonite are just exterior coatings. Thanks in advance. |
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Quoted: Hello guys. I am working on a build and have a barrel lining question. As I understand it, milspec calls for a chrome lined barrel so they can run thousands of rounds and a non-lined barrel may have about a 3000 round life. How does a chrome moly or a stainless steel barrel which I assume are unlined compare to the chrome lined? I also understand that anodized, phosphate, nitride, and melonite are just exterior coatings. Thanks in advance. Where are you getting this number? I'm just curious. Here are some threads for you to read on the subject: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_2_130/158390_My_18_month__15K_rounds_SS_barrel_range_report_.html |
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I've got two DPMS S/S barrels. One on my dad's rifle is about to pass 5000 rounds and is still capable of "cleans" on the MR-31. My second one with 4660 rounds was pulled off for an experiment, but was still cleaning the MR-31, and is waiting on a new host. However, I have seen a Krieger barrel that apparently burned out after 5000, but it probably had a healthy dose of max pressure ammo. |
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Quoted: Thanks. Looks like stainless is good to go. My concern is that they would reflect like a mirror in the sun. The 3000 number for unlined barrels came from something I have read on the web and could have come from a match shooter. Many times you will hear of stainless barrels being "shot out" after 4-5000 rounds from high power shooters who have noticed their groups are starting to open up at 600 yards and beyond. These are exceptional shooters, and the barrel they note is shot out will likely still shoot sub 2MOA out to 200-300 yards, and serve us average Joe shooters for quite some time. I'm not saying that's always the case, as some of those high power guys are shooting some HOT loads. Generally, a SS barrel can last a LONG time for an average shooter. Even if you're doing mag dumps on occasion. |
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Quoted: Thanks. Looks like stainless is good to go. My concern is that they would reflect like a mirror in the sun. The 3000 number for unlined barrels came from something I have read on the web and could have come from a match shooter. Oh no, a 100/100-5X instead of 100/100-8x! My barrel is toast!   If concerned about being too shiny, bead blast or coat it. |
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Quoted: My concern is that they would reflect like a mirror in the sun. The only way it's going to reflect like a mirror is if you high polish the barrel. You can bead blast it to dull it down, or paint/coat it with a multitude of products on the market. You can also get stainless barrels that are chemically coated to be blackened. |
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Meloniting / Nitrated / QPQ barrels are not just an exterior coating. They are a surface hardening that is throughout the entire barrel inside and out. Since it is a surface hardening treatment it can not flake like chrome, and is almost as hard as chrome so it should last about as long. And the benefits of it are it doesn't have a coating like chrome so the bore is more even, therefore usually more accurate on average. And also since it is throughout the whole barrel, that makes the outside just as protected as the inside from corrosion. I prefer them over a chrome bore anymore.
But as far as round counts and barrel life, there are so many variables at play. The main ones being how fast you shoot your barrel and therefore how hot it gets. And of course how hot your ammo is, but lets assume you just shoot regular factory ammo. If you do a lot of mag dumps and get your barrel smoking and very hot each time you shoot it, then chances are it will only last half as long as a barrel under normal firing conditions. Same goes for if you shoot it very slowly and don't ever get it warm, it should last a little longer then an average barrel. But you will still eventually have other issues due to the wear caused in the chamber by each round fired, and the damage done to the gas port as it erodes with each round. After a barrel has shot many rounds it is usually wise to have an adjustable gas block on it if you intend to keep firing it because it will be getting a lot more gas then it did from the factory. As for what round count to expect, the numbers are all over the place. It is hard to say for sure what to really expect but in my mind the numbers are around 8-10k for an unlined SS or regular chrome moly barrel. And around 12-15k for a chrome lined or Melonited/Nitrated barrel. Of course every one will have different standards, but I figure that is fairly close if you fire your rifle at normal firing rates and don't get it too hot. And for decent acceptable accuracy. If you didn't care about anything but it being able to shoot a man sized target at 100 yards, you would probably be fine until it started to keyhole which I would imagine would be many many thousands or rounds after this. Just my opinions. |
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As for what round count to expect, the numbers are all over the place. It is hard to say for sure what to really expect but in my mind the numbers are around 8-10k for an unlined SS or regular chrome moly barrel. And around 12-15k for a chrome lined or Melonited/Nitrated barrel. Numbers are subjective and alot of variables have to be considered but those numbers are way under estimated even for a stainless steel barrel under hard semi auto use. |
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Meloniting / Nitrated / QPQ barrels are not just an exterior coating. They are a surface hardening that is throughout the entire barrel inside and out. Since it is a surface hardening treatment it can not flake like chrome, and is almost as hard as chrome so it should last about as long. And the benefits of it are it doesn't have a coating like chrome so the bore is more even, therefore usually more accurate on average. And also since it is throughout the whole barrel, that makes the outside just as protected as the inside from corrosion. I prefer them over a chrome bore anymore. But as far as round counts and barrel life, there are so many variables at play. The main ones being how fast you shoot your barrel and therefore how hot it gets. And of course how hot your ammo is, but lets assume you just shoot regular factory ammo. If you do a lot of mag dumps and get your barrel smoking and very hot each time you shoot it, then chances are it will only last half as long as a barrel under normal firing conditions. Same goes for if you shoot it very slowly and don't ever get it warm, it should last a little longer then an average barrel. But you will still eventually have other issues due to the wear caused in the chamber by each round fired, and the damage done to the gas port as it erodes with each round. After a barrel has shot many rounds it is usually wise to have an adjustable gas block on it if you intend to keep firing it because it will be getting a lot more gas then it did from the factory. As for what round count to expect, the numbers are all over the place. It is hard to say for sure what to really expect but in my mind the numbers are around 8-10k for an unlined SS or regular chrome moly barrel. And around 12-15k for a chrome lined or Melonited/Nitrated barrel. Of course every one will have different standards, but I figure that is fairly close if you fire your rifle at normal firing rates and don't get it too hot. And for decent acceptable accuracy. If you didn't care about anything but it being able to shoot a man sized target at 100 yards, you would probably be fine until it started to keyhole which I would imagine would be many many thousands or rounds after this. Just my opinions. We approve this message as a manufacturer. |
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We approve this message as a manufacturer. Quoted:
Quoted:
Meloniting / Nitrated / QPQ barrels are not just an exterior coating. They are a surface hardening that is throughout the entire barrel inside and out. Since it is a surface hardening treatment it can not flake like chrome, and is almost as hard as chrome so it should last about as long. And the benefits of it are it doesn't have a coating like chrome so the bore is more even, therefore usually more accurate on average. And also since it is throughout the whole barrel, that makes the outside just as protected as the inside from corrosion. I prefer them over a chrome bore anymore. But as far as round counts and barrel life, there are so many variables at play. The main ones being how fast you shoot your barrel and therefore how hot it gets. And of course how hot your ammo is, but lets assume you just shoot regular factory ammo. If you do a lot of mag dumps and get your barrel smoking and very hot each time you shoot it, then chances are it will only last half as long as a barrel under normal firing conditions. Same goes for if you shoot it very slowly and don't ever get it warm, it should last a little longer then an average barrel. But you will still eventually have other issues due to the wear caused in the chamber by each round fired, and the damage done to the gas port as it erodes with each round. After a barrel has shot many rounds it is usually wise to have an adjustable gas block on it if you intend to keep firing it because it will be getting a lot more gas then it did from the factory. As for what round count to expect, the numbers are all over the place. It is hard to say for sure what to really expect but in my mind the numbers are around 8-10k for an unlined SS or regular chrome moly barrel. And around 12-15k for a chrome lined or Melonited/Nitrated barrel. Of course every one will have different standards, but I figure that is fairly close if you fire your rifle at normal firing rates and don't get it too hot. And for decent acceptable accuracy. If you didn't care about anything but it being able to shoot a man sized target at 100 yards, you would probably be fine until it started to keyhole which I would imagine would be many many thousands or rounds after this. Just my opinions. We approve this message as a manufacturer. so as a manufacturer youre agreeing that the life span of a melonited barrel is only 12-15k rounds? If that is the case then why get a melonited barrel when there is enough data that proves that a chromelined barrel will last 2-3 times that? |
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so as a manufacturer youre agreeing that the life span of a melonited barrel is only 12-15k rounds? If that is the case then why get a melonited barrel when there is enough data that proves that a chromelined barrel will last 2-3 times that? Quoted:
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Meloniting / Nitrated / QPQ barrels are not just an exterior coating. They are a surface hardening that is throughout the entire barrel inside and out. Since it is a surface hardening treatment it can not flake like chrome, and is almost as hard as chrome so it should last about as long. And the benefits of it are it doesn't have a coating like chrome so the bore is more even, therefore usually more accurate on average. And also since it is throughout the whole barrel, that makes the outside just as protected as the inside from corrosion. I prefer them over a chrome bore anymore. But as far as round counts and barrel life, there are so many variables at play. The main ones being how fast you shoot your barrel and therefore how hot it gets. And of course how hot your ammo is, but lets assume you just shoot regular factory ammo. If you do a lot of mag dumps and get your barrel smoking and very hot each time you shoot it, then chances are it will only last half as long as a barrel under normal firing conditions. Same goes for if you shoot it very slowly and don't ever get it warm, it should last a little longer then an average barrel. But you will still eventually have other issues due to the wear caused in the chamber by each round fired, and the damage done to the gas port as it erodes with each round. After a barrel has shot many rounds it is usually wise to have an adjustable gas block on it if you intend to keep firing it because it will be getting a lot more gas then it did from the factory. As for what round count to expect, the numbers are all over the place. It is hard to say for sure what to really expect but in my mind the numbers are around 8-10k for an unlined SS or regular chrome moly barrel. And around 12-15k for a chrome lined or Melonited/Nitrated barrel. Of course every one will have different standards, but I figure that is fairly close if you fire your rifle at normal firing rates and don't get it too hot. And for decent acceptable accuracy. If you didn't care about anything but it being able to shoot a man sized target at 100 yards, you would probably be fine until it started to keyhole which I would imagine would be many many thousands or rounds after this. Just my opinions. We approve this message as a manufacturer. so as a manufacturer youre agreeing that the life span of a melonited barrel is only 12-15k rounds? If that is the case then why get a melonited barrel when there is enough data that proves that a chromelined barrel will last 2-3 times that? 2-3 times that? Hellz naw dude. One of my CL BCM barrels shot out before it even hit 10K 
The only barrel I've ever even heard of getting that kind of round count without keyholing is KAC. |
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2-3 times that? Hellz naw dude. One of my CL BCM barrels shot out before it even hit 10K
The only barrel I've ever even heard of getting that kind of round count without keyholing is KAC. Quoted:
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Meloniting / Nitrated / QPQ barrels are not just an exterior coating. They are a surface hardening that is throughout the entire barrel inside and out. Since it is a surface hardening treatment it can not flake like chrome, and is almost as hard as chrome so it should last about as long. And the benefits of it are it doesn't have a coating like chrome so the bore is more even, therefore usually more accurate on average. And also since it is throughout the whole barrel, that makes the outside just as protected as the inside from corrosion. I prefer them over a chrome bore anymore. But as far as round counts and barrel life, there are so many variables at play. The main ones being how fast you shoot your barrel and therefore how hot it gets. And of course how hot your ammo is, but lets assume you just shoot regular factory ammo. If you do a lot of mag dumps and get your barrel smoking and very hot each time you shoot it, then chances are it will only last half as long as a barrel under normal firing conditions. Same goes for if you shoot it very slowly and don't ever get it warm, it should last a little longer then an average barrel. But you will still eventually have other issues due to the wear caused in the chamber by each round fired, and the damage done to the gas port as it erodes with each round. After a barrel has shot many rounds it is usually wise to have an adjustable gas block on it if you intend to keep firing it because it will be getting a lot more gas then it did from the factory. As for what round count to expect, the numbers are all over the place. It is hard to say for sure what to really expect but in my mind the numbers are around 8-10k for an unlined SS or regular chrome moly barrel. And around 12-15k for a chrome lined or Melonited/Nitrated barrel. Of course every one will have different standards, but I figure that is fairly close if you fire your rifle at normal firing rates and don't get it too hot. And for decent acceptable accuracy. If you didn't care about anything but it being able to shoot a man sized target at 100 yards, you would probably be fine until it started to keyhole which I would imagine would be many many thousands or rounds after this. Just my opinions. We approve this message as a manufacturer. so as a manufacturer youre agreeing that the life span of a melonited barrel is only 12-15k rounds? If that is the case then why get a melonited barrel when there is enough data that proves that a chromelined barrel will last 2-3 times that? 2-3 times that? Hellz naw dude. One of my CL BCM barrels shot out before it even hit 10K
The only barrel I've ever even heard of getting that kind of round count without keyholing is KAC. and that kac is a chrome lined barrel. eta: were you key holing after 10k? at what distance? |
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Quoted: 2-3 times that? Hellz naw dude. One of my CL BCM barrels shot out before it even hit 10K The only barrel I've ever even heard of getting that kind of round count without keyholing is KAC. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Meloniting / Nitrated / QPQ barrels are not just an exterior coating. They are a surface hardening that is throughout the entire barrel inside and out. Since it is a surface hardening treatment it can not flake like chrome, and is almost as hard as chrome so it should last about as long. And the benefits of it are it doesn't have a coating like chrome so the bore is more even, therefore usually more accurate on average. And also since it is throughout the whole barrel, that makes the outside just as protected as the inside from corrosion. I prefer them over a chrome bore anymore. But as far as round counts and barrel life, there are so many variables at play. The main ones being how fast you shoot your barrel and therefore how hot it gets. And of course how hot your ammo is, but lets assume you just shoot regular factory ammo. If you do a lot of mag dumps and get your barrel smoking and very hot each time you shoot it, then chances are it will only last half as long as a barrel under normal firing conditions. Same goes for if you shoot it very slowly and don't ever get it warm, it should last a little longer then an average barrel. But you will still eventually have other issues due to the wear caused in the chamber by each round fired, and the damage done to the gas port as it erodes with each round. After a barrel has shot many rounds it is usually wise to have an adjustable gas block on it if you intend to keep firing it because it will be getting a lot more gas then it did from the factory. As for what round count to expect, the numbers are all over the place. It is hard to say for sure what to really expect but in my mind the numbers are around 8-10k for an unlined SS or regular chrome moly barrel. And around 12-15k for a chrome lined or Melonited/Nitrated barrel. Of course every one will have different standards, but I figure that is fairly close if you fire your rifle at normal firing rates and don't get it too hot. And for decent acceptable accuracy. If you didn't care about anything but it being able to shoot a man sized target at 100 yards, you would probably be fine until it started to keyhole which I would imagine would be many many thousands or rounds after this. Just my opinions. We approve this message as a manufacturer. so as a manufacturer youre agreeing that the life span of a melonited barrel is only 12-15k rounds? If that is the case then why get a melonited barrel when there is enough data that proves that a chromelined barrel will last 2-3 times that? 2-3 times that? Hellz naw dude. One of my CL BCM barrels shot out before it even hit 10K The only barrel I've ever even heard of getting that kind of round count without keyholing is KAC. |
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so as a manufacturer youre agreeing that the life span of a melonited barrel is only 12-15k rounds? If that is the case then why get a melonited barrel when there is enough data that proves that a chromelined barrel will last 2-3 times that? No. The poster equated chrome to QPQ/Melonite saying they lasted the same, which is true to our evidence in AR15s put through normal duty cycles. As the posted clearly said, barrel life is highly correlated to how a barrel is treated and it's duty cycle. Further, when a barrel is shot out is highly subjective. Some shooter are OK with doubling or more of the base accuracy. Other consider a barrel shot out when the base accuracy degrades. |
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and that kac is a chrome lined barrel. eta: were you key holing after 10k? at what distance? Quoted:
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Meloniting / Nitrated / QPQ barrels are not just an exterior coating. They are a surface hardening that is throughout the entire barrel inside and out. Since it is a surface hardening treatment it can not flake like chrome, and is almost as hard as chrome so it should last about as long. And the benefits of it are it doesn't have a coating like chrome so the bore is more even, therefore usually more accurate on average. And also since it is throughout the whole barrel, that makes the outside just as protected as the inside from corrosion. I prefer them over a chrome bore anymore. But as far as round counts and barrel life, there are so many variables at play. The main ones being how fast you shoot your barrel and therefore how hot it gets. And of course how hot your ammo is, but lets assume you just shoot regular factory ammo. If you do a lot of mag dumps and get your barrel smoking and very hot each time you shoot it, then chances are it will only last half as long as a barrel under normal firing conditions. Same goes for if you shoot it very slowly and don't ever get it warm, it should last a little longer then an average barrel. But you will still eventually have other issues due to the wear caused in the chamber by each round fired, and the damage done to the gas port as it erodes with each round. After a barrel has shot many rounds it is usually wise to have an adjustable gas block on it if you intend to keep firing it because it will be getting a lot more gas then it did from the factory. As for what round count to expect, the numbers are all over the place. It is hard to say for sure what to really expect but in my mind the numbers are around 8-10k for an unlined SS or regular chrome moly barrel. And around 12-15k for a chrome lined or Melonited/Nitrated barrel. Of course every one will have different standards, but I figure that is fairly close if you fire your rifle at normal firing rates and don't get it too hot. And for decent acceptable accuracy. If you didn't care about anything but it being able to shoot a man sized target at 100 yards, you would probably be fine until it started to keyhole which I would imagine would be many many thousands or rounds after this. Just my opinions. We approve this message as a manufacturer. so as a manufacturer youre agreeing that the life span of a melonited barrel is only 12-15k rounds? If that is the case then why get a melonited barrel when there is enough data that proves that a chromelined barrel will last 2-3 times that? 2-3 times that? Hellz naw dude. One of my CL BCM barrels shot out before it even hit 10K
The only barrel I've ever even heard of getting that kind of round count without keyholing is KAC. and that kac is a chrome lined barrel. eta: were you key holing after 10k? at what distance? According to my rough but not completely precise count it was around 9300 rounds that it started keyholing on target at 25 meters. That was between two owners though, but the guy gave me his exact round count on it when I got it, which I believe was 1700 rounds. |
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A barrel costs 500 rounds of blaster ammo. So who cares if it lasts 10k or 20k rounds? A good nitride barrel will outlast most rifle ownership for most shooters. While not an absolute statement, the nitride barrel has the potential to be more accurate because the rifling remains pristine and unaltered, while the plating on chrome lined barrels may be unevenly applied. You will never see a chrome lined barrel on a benchrest rifle. You will see nitrided stainless barrels in top level benchrest national competition to extend barrel life. |
| Looks like I've learned a few things here on barrels. I can see that stainless, nitride, melonite, chrome lined, and even phosphate coated steel barrels would fit my needs as I don't blast through a great amount of ammo on a regular basis. Now I can properly evaluate the price differences. My next projects are to get 80% jigs starting with 308. I had just settled on the tactical machining jigs in the dpms lr308 style with sr25 mags when I looked around and am not seeing very good prices for matching uppers. I like PSA products for the ar15 but they seem to have their own style and don't guarantee their uppers will fit dpms style lowers. Thanks again. |
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The 3,000 round number comes from the USAMU policy of changing barrels on their stainless steel competition rifles at that juncture. It has nothing to do with being worn out, it is a policy based on their intention to win the All Services Championships and Camp Perry EIC. They intend to leave nothing to chance.
Those pulled barrels could soldier on for another 7,000 competitive rounds, especially if used on 100 or 200 yard reduced courses and still win matches. All 5.56mm barrels last a very long time unless they are run full-auto or used for magazine dumps as fast as you can pull the trigger. High heat destroys barrels. In that case 3,000 rounds any barrel may be shot to hell, even chrome-lined. I buy stainless steel match grade barrels and have them bead blasted to a matte finish. Every one of them are hammers with match grade bullets. |
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It seems like no matter what you say, even if you clearly state it is only your opinion, people still have to try to knock you down. And I think I worded my post about as clearly as I possibly could. I in no way said that a barrel would start to keyhole after 12-15k rounds. I wouldn't be surprised if it would take 30-40k on most lined barrels. But before you hit that 30-40k it is going to drop off in accuracy to the point where most would want to replace it. That is why I figure 12-15k from about everything I have experienced and read online from the numerous people who shoot a lot. But if you don't care about getting the most out of your barrel and just want to plink at targets at closer ranges then by all means shoot it until it keyholes. Again just my opinions.
And to the OP, like you mentioned any barrel will serve you well for a long time. But at the prices of barrels today, I highly recommend going with a Nitrated or Chrome lined barrel since the costs aren't very much more. And it isn't only about longevity , they can also add to your reliability under harsh conditions. When your rifle gets very dirty, it is much easier for a lined chamber to extract the rounds instead of a non lined one. If you keep your rifle fairly clean and don't intend on using it in combat you are probably fine. But that extra little bit of reliability doesn't hurt since it is only a few dollars to pay, plus you get an extended barrel life out of it as well, and a barrel that is easier to clean and wipe away carbon then one that isn't lined. Nitrated/QPQ barrels are my favorite and I don't see that changing, they are one of the most abundant rifle barrels on the market now and are generally cheaper then a chrome lined one from the same manufacturer. Like I mentioned earlier, check out Ballistic Advantage, and Faxon for an affordable good quality barrel. BA has some very good deals at times, and are offered by a few different sources. They have free shipping and 10% off from them, and their is also a guy on the EE that sells their barrels for a highly reduced price. And AIM Surplus has them at times, as well as Schuyler Arms has a couple for less then $100. I am not a big fan of SS barrels, I can see why others are due to getting the most accuracy out oft their rifles. I am not biased, as I even have an SS AR15 barrel in one of my uppers but the accuracy difference isn't noticeable to most shooters, and even then it isn't guaranteed that an SS barrel will shoot better. But you sacrifice a little bit of barrel life by using one, and I have heard they don't handle the heat as well as a regular barrel does. I do not know how true the last statement is, I have read it in quite a few places but I don't know for sure. I have seen some SS barrels get pretty hot so I know they can handle it, but if I had to guess I would say they burn out faster when they are hot then a regular chrome moly barrel does. Others may have personal experience on this matter, but it is truly hard to know for sure since usually it would take many thousands of rounds, under different firing rates, and many years from multiple people. And then the data would have to be collected in a way that would be fair and equal to each other. On this topic, I think a sticky on the top of this forum section would be a good idea with all of those who have either A.) Put more then 8k rounds through their barrel and want to post their results over time, or B.) Have considered their barrel shot out, or 3.) Someone who wants to keep a log of what they find out on accuracy loss over time even before the 8k round count. And they must list their usual firing habits as well, meaning how fast they tend to shoot and how hot they get their barrels. And one last thing to the OP, you still seem like you may be slightly confused on the coatings so just in case - Meloniting/QPQ/Nitrated is a surface hardening that we have been talking about, Chrome Lining is of course self explanatory, anodizing isn't something you get on a barrel - it is for aluminum parts like the upper and lower receivers so you won't see it on a barrel. And Phosphate is just a parkerized finish that goes on the outside of the barrel and has no effect on the bore itself. It does a fairly good job at holding lube and protecting the outside from rust if you keep it clean - similar to bluing. Parkerizing is generally found on regular chrome moly barrels. But a Melonited/Nitrated barrel will have a lot better protection on the outside since it is just as resistant to corrosion as the bore is, requiring less maintenance. |
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And one last thing to the OP, you still seem like you may be slightly confused on the coatings so just in case - Meloniting/QPQ/Nitrated is a surface hardening that we have been talking about, Chrome Lining is of course self explanatory, anodizing isn't something you get on a barrel - it is for aluminum parts like the upper and lower receivers so you won't see it on a barrel. And Phosphate is just a parkerized finish that goes on the outside of the barrel and has no effect on the bore itself. It does a fairly good job at holding lube and protecting the outside from rust if you keep it clean - similar to bluing. Parkerizing is generally found on regular chrome moly barrels. But a Melonited/Nitrated barrel will have a lot better protection on the outside since it is just as resistant to corrosion as the bore is, requiring less maintenance. OK. That clears up the confusion especially in your summary in the last paragraph. I'm thinking that the anodizing is an electrochemical process and parkerizing is a chemical process. I see that the hardened melonite, hardened nitride, chrome moly, and stainless barrels don't really cost that much more. That begs the question, what about bolt carriers and does nitride help them that much? Thanks. |
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OK. That clears up the confusion especially in your summary in the last paragraph. I'm thinking that the anodizing is an electrochemical process and parkerizing is a chemical process. I see that the hardened melonite, hardened nitride, chrome moly, and stainless barrels don't really cost that much more. That begs the question, what about bolt carriers and does nitride help them that much? Thanks. Quoted:
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And one last thing to the OP, you still seem like you may be slightly confused on the coatings so just in case - Meloniting/QPQ/Nitrated is a surface hardening that we have been talking about, Chrome Lining is of course self explanatory, anodizing isn't something you get on a barrel - it is for aluminum parts like the upper and lower receivers so you won't see it on a barrel. And Phosphate is just a parkerized finish that goes on the outside of the barrel and has no effect on the bore itself. It does a fairly good job at holding lube and protecting the outside from rust if you keep it clean - similar to bluing. Parkerizing is generally found on regular chrome moly barrels. But a Melonited/Nitrated barrel will have a lot better protection on the outside since it is just as resistant to corrosion as the bore is, requiring less maintenance. OK. That clears up the confusion especially in your summary in the last paragraph. I'm thinking that the anodizing is an electrochemical process and parkerizing is a chemical process. I see that the hardened melonite, hardened nitride, chrome moly, and stainless barrels don't really cost that much more. That begs the question, what about bolt carriers and does nitride help them that much? Thanks. Defining "that much" can be somewhat debatable on how much melonite treatment helps wear, performance, and cleanliness on a BCG, but there's little to no debate that it helps noticeably. I have phosphate, NiB, and melonite treated BCG's. While the NiB coated components display a slicker feel and a tad better ease of cleaning, the melonite versions are well ahead of the phosphate versions in this regard. "Wear"?...that's a longer term element to nail down, but I notice even the high quality phosphate units show wear and break-in markings much quicker than the melonite treated components. This just about has to result in better long term wear. There's a definite "slickness" quality that the melonite BCG's appear to have over the traditional phosphate, and that "slickness" seems very hard and durable...not quickly marred or nicked. |
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No. The poster equated chrome to QPQ/Melonite saying they lasted the same, which is true to our evidence in AR15s put through normal duty cycles. As the posted clearly said, barrel life is highly correlated to how a barrel is treated and it's duty cycle. Further, when a barrel is shot out is highly subjective. Some shooter are OK with doubling or more of the base accuracy. Other consider a barrel shot out when the base accuracy degrades. Quoted:
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so as a manufacturer youre agreeing that the life span of a melonited barrel is only 12-15k rounds? If that is the case then why get a melonited barrel when there is enough data that proves that a chromelined barrel will last 2-3 times that? No. The poster equated chrome to QPQ/Melonite saying they lasted the same, which is true to our evidence in AR15s put through normal duty cycles. As the posted clearly said, barrel life is highly correlated to how a barrel is treated and it's duty cycle. Further, when a barrel is shot out is highly subjective. Some shooter are OK with doubling or more of the base accuracy. Other consider a barrel shot out when the base accuracy degrades. It does NOT matter what kind of barrel, what kind of coating/plating/treatment or the rifling method, any barrel that is abused will wear out faster than one that isn't abused. At this point in time, I don't know if there is any hard empirical data on how nitrided AR barrels compare to lined and unlined barrels in either the "very conservative" firing schedule or the "very abusive" firing schedule, which might be helpful to some people. For me, if I plan to abuse a barrel with mag dumps and extended, rapid fire sessions (in high ambient temperatures to boot), I'm going to be thoughtful about how much I spend on the barrel, more than I'm going to worry much about the technology involved in the barrel. And of course what I consider "shot out" is going to be dependent on what the rifle is used for and what you expect from it. An M4 that starts life capable of MOA with great ammo but can still keep those rounds within a 4" radius at 100 yards isn't "shot out" to me, while a precision barrel that is capable of .25 MOA with hand-crafted loads lovingly produced in a time consuming and laborious process is "shot out" when it can't keep within .50 MOA with those same rounds... Bottom lines: "it depends" on a LOT of things, with the important ones being what you expect out of a barrel and how you treat it. |
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My emphasis points out what I think the key issues are. If you blast away and get the barrel really hot - and keep it hot for many rounds - it will wear faster than one that you shoot more conservatively. It does NOT matter what kind of barrel, what kind of coating/plating/treatment or the rifling method, any barrel that is abused will wear out faster than one that isn't abused. At this point in time, I don't know if there is any hard empirical data on how nitrided AR barrels compare to lined and unlined barrels in either the "very conservative" firing schedule or the "very abusive" firing schedule, which might be helpful to some people. For me, if I plan to abuse a barrel with mag dumps and extended, rapid fire sessions (in high ambient temperatures to boot), I'm going to be thoughtful about how much I spend on the barrel, more than I'm going to worry much about the technology involved in the barrel. And of course what I consider "shot out" is going to be dependent on what the rifle is used for and what you expect from it. An M4 that starts life capable of MOA with great ammo but can still keep those rounds within a 4" radius at 100 yards isn't "shot out" to me, while a precision barrel that is capable of .25 MOA with hand-crafted loads lovingly produced in a time consuming and laborious process is "shot out" when it can't keep within .50 MOA with those same rounds... Bottom lines: "it depends" on a LOT of things, with the important ones being what you expect out of a barrel and how you treat it. Quoted:
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so as a manufacturer youre agreeing that the life span of a melonited barrel is only 12-15k rounds? If that is the case then why get a melonited barrel when there is enough data that proves that a chromelined barrel will last 2-3 times that? No. The poster equated chrome to QPQ/Melonite saying they lasted the same, which is true to our evidence in AR15s put through normal duty cycles. As the posted clearly said, barrel life is highly correlated to how a barrel is treated and it's duty cycle. Further, when a barrel is shot out is highly subjective. Some shooter are OK with doubling or more of the base accuracy. Other consider a barrel shot out when the base accuracy degrades. It does NOT matter what kind of barrel, what kind of coating/plating/treatment or the rifling method, any barrel that is abused will wear out faster than one that isn't abused. At this point in time, I don't know if there is any hard empirical data on how nitrided AR barrels compare to lined and unlined barrels in either the "very conservative" firing schedule or the "very abusive" firing schedule, which might be helpful to some people. For me, if I plan to abuse a barrel with mag dumps and extended, rapid fire sessions (in high ambient temperatures to boot), I'm going to be thoughtful about how much I spend on the barrel, more than I'm going to worry much about the technology involved in the barrel. And of course what I consider "shot out" is going to be dependent on what the rifle is used for and what you expect from it. An M4 that starts life capable of MOA with great ammo but can still keep those rounds within a 4" radius at 100 yards isn't "shot out" to me, while a precision barrel that is capable of .25 MOA with hand-crafted loads lovingly produced in a time consuming and laborious process is "shot out" when it can't keep within .50 MOA with those same rounds... Bottom lines: "it depends" on a LOT of things, with the important ones being what you expect out of a barrel and how you treat it. We heart you and agree completely. |
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Quoted: An unlined barrel can easily out live 300 rounds. I bought a used Cetme kit with a plain steel barrel, shot 4000 rounds of milsurp through it, sometimes bump firing a stack of mags at a time. It still shot fine up until I accidentally parkerized the inside of it. I buy nitrided barrels now because they don't rust. Not for longevity. |
| I guess this brings up another question on barrels. I primarily want my modern sporting rifles to use for shooting cans, other varmits, and game such as deer. I am not worried about the Geneva convention and have a progressive loader and am fast with a classic Lee loader during waiting times at the range or in front of the tv. I am more interested in using jacketed soft points or using all lead dum dum style bullets. Just wondering how the use of a part lead or all lead bullets will affect the various types of barrels? I am.sure lead would wear out unlined std steel faster than copper jackets. I would like to try those new polymer bullets too. I also shoot black powder pistols so I don't have a problem with regular cleaning. Thanks. |
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Quoted: I guess this brings up another question on barrels. I primarily want my modern sporting rifles to use for shooting cans, other varmits, and game such as deer. I am not worried about the Geneva convention and have a progressive loader and am fast with a classic Lee loader during waiting times at the range or in front of the tv. I am more interested in using jacketed soft points or using all lead dum dum style bullets. Just wondering how the use of a part lead or all lead bullets will affect the various types of barrels? I am.sure lead would wear out unlined std steel faster than copper jackets. I would like to try those new polymer bullets too. I also shoot black powder pistols so I don't have a problem with regular cleaning. Thanks. The Hague Conventions dealt with arms. Civies aren't bound by it, and .mil is issued factory loaded ammo.  Lead is softer than copper. Combined with the low pressure that should be used to launch them, a barrel would last quite a long time. Some precision smallbore rifles have up to ~100,000 rounds through them: http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2015/05/using-barrel-with-100000-rounds-joe-sets-new-ara-record/ Copper jacket thickness should have some effect on barrel wear, but I currently don't have a source to prove that. Bearing length does. One of the older guys in my circle wrote an article about boattailed bullets allowing a longer precision life than flatbased bullets; I need to see if I may share that sometime. |
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I guess this brings up another question on barrels. I primarily want my modern sporting rifles to use for shooting cans, other varmits, and game such as deer. I am not worried about the Geneva convention and have a progressive loader and am fast with a classic Lee loader during waiting times at the range or in front of the tv. I am more interested in using jacketed soft points or using all lead dum dum style bullets. Just wondering how the use of a part lead or all lead bullets will affect the various types of barrels? I am.sure lead would wear out unlined std steel faster than copper jackets. I would like to try those new polymer bullets too. I also shoot black powder pistols so I don't have a problem with regular cleaning. Thanks. There is no discernible wear difference between lead cast and copper jacketed rounds. |
| I did some research and there is not a good lead cast bullet readily available that would out perform a jacketed bullet. Start flattening the nose and you start having feed problems. To keep the velocity and force the same you have to increase the hardness to the point that it won't impact like a pistol bullet would. There are guys making and reloading lead cast to save a little cash but then they have to mess with gas checks and dacron fill if they reduce the powder which probably isn't worth the effort to me. |
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