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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - MIM Parts (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 11/14/2015 3:04:24 AM EDT
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I've been noticing some companies that are known for quality and precision machine work are now using MIM to make parts. I remeber people talking down about Colt using MIM to make 1911 parts saying durability was not on par with conventionaly forged / machined parts. Has there been new advancments made in the MIM process that yealds better quality parts now? Or are they just cutting corners? Was there every any issues to begin with?
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| MIM parts are a part of life for a modern firearm enthusiast. I don't believe it to be a real issue. All of my firearm problems have been from incorrect assembly or manufacturing work by the machinist, not part breakage due to mim processes. It's pretty much inescapable if you want to own any guns made recently. |
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I've been noticing some companies that are known for quality and precision machine work are now using MIM to make parts. I remeber people talking down about Colt using MIM to make 1911 parts saying durability was not on par with conventionaly forged / machined parts. Has there been new advancments made in the MIM process that yealds better quality parts now, or are they just cutting corners? MIM is good to go. |
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There is an interesting comment found in the March/April 2009 issue of American Handgunner.
On page 65 there is a picture associated with the article "S&W's Performance Center." The article was written by Roy Huntington. The caption for the pic reads "Forged Performance Center (PC) parts on the left, MIM factory parts on the right. Is there a difference? The PC thinks so and spares no expense." For those of you who know who Ron Power of Power Custom is, he made this statement to me.... "MIM is the single worst thing to happen to the firearms industry, there is only reason for it. TO CUT COSTS" |
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There is an interesting comment found in the March/April 2009 issue of American Handgunner. On page 65 there is a picture associated with the article "S&W's Performance Center." The article was written by Roy Huntington. The caption for the pic reads "Forged Performance Center (PC) parts on the left, MIM factory parts on the right. Is there a difference? The PC thinks so and spares no expense." For those of you who know who Ron Power of Power Custom is, he made this statement to me.... "MIM is the single worst thing to happen to the firearms industry, there is only reason for it. TO CUT COSTS" Thats kind of like a guy trying to sell you a Ford saying Chevy sucks. Modern MIM is just as good as forged or billet when used in the proper parts. MIM has a sordid history due to issues with poor manufacturing processes. |
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Thats kind of like a guy trying to sell you a Ford saying Chevy sucks. Modern MIM is just as good as forged or billet when used in the proper parts. MIM has a sordid history due to issues with poor manufacturing processes. Quoted:
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There is an interesting comment found in the March/April 2009 issue of American Handgunner. On page 65 there is a picture associated with the article "S&W's Performance Center." The article was written by Roy Huntington. The caption for the pic reads "Forged Performance Center (PC) parts on the left, MIM factory parts on the right. Is there a difference? The PC thinks so and spares no expense." For those of you who know who Ron Power of Power Custom is, he made this statement to me.... "MIM is the single worst thing to happen to the firearms industry, there is only reason for it. TO CUT COSTS" Thats kind of like a guy trying to sell you a Ford saying Chevy sucks. Modern MIM is just as good as forged or billet when used in the proper parts. MIM has a sordid history due to issues with poor manufacturing processes. BULLSHIT! |
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BULLSHIT! Quoted:
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There is an interesting comment found in the March/April 2009 issue of American Handgunner. On page 65 there is a picture associated with the article "S&W's Performance Center." The article was written by Roy Huntington. The caption for the pic reads "Forged Performance Center (PC) parts on the left, MIM factory parts on the right. Is there a difference? The PC thinks so and spares no expense." For those of you who know who Ron Power of Power Custom is, he made this statement to me.... "MIM is the single worst thing to happen to the firearms industry, there is only reason for it. TO CUT COSTS" Thats kind of like a guy trying to sell you a Ford saying Chevy sucks. Modern MIM is just as good as forged or billet when used in the proper parts. MIM has a sordid history due to issues with poor manufacturing processes. BULLSHIT! Ughhh in the right applications... Something doesn't need to be able to withstand enormous forces if it's never subjected to them. Just because there is more better, doesn't mean it actually matters. "Billet" is the wrong application for numerous things. Forged can be the wrong application for others. They are interchangeable when it doesn't matter. |
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BULLSHIT! Quoted:
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Modern MIM is just as good as forged or billet when used in the proper parts. MIM has a sordid history due to issues with poor manufacturing processes. BULLSHIT! Do either of you have some technical source to back-up either claim? |
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First hand knowledge...
New Smith & Wesson 1911, belonged to a friend of mine who worked for me. He was dry firing it when the hammer broke in half. Kimber a friend of mine was shooting in an IDPA Match, the thumb safety broke off, Kimber quickly replaced it, two week later he was practicing with it and the replacement safety broke off. He now is running an older Colt safety. Being that several of my weapons "go into harms way", I WILL NOT run MIM. In addition, considering that Smith & Wesson's Performance Center REFUSES to use MIM I think that says volumes. |
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There is an interesting comment found in the March/April 2009 issue of American Handgunner. On page 65 there is a picture associated with the article "S&W's Performance Center." The article was written by Roy Huntington. The caption for the pic reads "Forged Performance Center (PC) parts on the left, MIM factory parts on the right. Is there a difference? The PC thinks so and spares no expense." For those of you who know who Ron Power of Power Custom is, he made this statement to me.... "MIM is the single worst thing to happen to the firearms industry, there is only reason for it. TO CUT COSTS" And Ron is an idiot 
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Our bolt catches are either billet (ABC/R) or machined from forgings (ABC/R-F) 
Bolt catches are a pain in the butt to machine, even from forgings that already have the rough shape of the bolt catch. 
To my knowledge, War Sport (who makes our ABC/R-F for us) and Forward Controls are the only two companies to offer forged bolt catches (we share and use the same forgings.) |
| I have had hammer and trigger failures that I have never seen in 30 years. I did not even know what MIM was at the time. They were LPK'S that I found during the crunch. Felt lucky to find them. If you look at the ground edge of a trigger under a glass, it will be jagged. It will not hold an edge like a cast piece. The process is now being used in the automotive engine parts area. Valve seats are now being made this way. Intake seats are falling out of cylinder heads like crazy. You never saw this 5-7 years ago. I could go on and on as far as other parts as well. It may work fine in some applications, but not in high stress or impact. If you look at how the process is done, it is very easy for metal bonding issues that are inside the part and easily hidden. The process has the potential for a high percentage of failure. I see it almost daily guys, not just in Guns. At some point maybe it will be refined. In a year or 2(maybe now) you will be able to buy a 3D printer that does metal. Craig |
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Our bolt catches are either billet (ABC/R) or machined from forgings (ABC/R-F)
<a href="http://s75.photobucket.com/user/Duffypoo/media/abcrf_zpswqodlk5f.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i314/Duffypoo/abcrf_zpswqodlk5f.jpg</a> <a href="http://s75.photobucket.com/user/Duffypoo/media/mega_zps2zamqtnq.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i314/Duffypoo/mega_zps2zamqtnq.jpg</a> Bolt catches are a pain in the butt to machine, even from forgings that already have the rough shape of the bolt catch. <a href="http://s75.photobucket.com/user/Duffypoo/media/F_zpsw0x3rgru.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i314/Duffypoo/F_zpsw0x3rgru.jpg</a> To my knowledge, War Sport (who makes our ABC/R-F for us) and Forward Controls are the only two companies to offer forged bolt catches (we share and use the same forgings.) And THAT is why I'm running your bolt catch. 
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And Ron is an idiot Quoted:
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There is an interesting comment found in the March/April 2009 issue of American Handgunner. On page 65 there is a picture associated with the article "S&W's Performance Center." The article was written by Roy Huntington. The caption for the pic reads "Forged Performance Center (PC) parts on the left, MIM factory parts on the right. Is there a difference? The PC thinks so and spares no expense." For those of you who know who Ron Power of Power Custom is, he made this statement to me.... "MIM is the single worst thing to happen to the firearms industry, there is only reason for it. TO CUT COSTS" And Ron is an idiot Your statement has proved who the IDIOT is!!! Ron Power Charter Member American Pistolsmiths Guild 1986 Pistolsmith of the Year Award Life Memberships: N.R.A 1991 Received the N.R.A Professional Public Service Award Outstanding American Handgunner 1992 Top-10 Outstanding American Handgunner Award 1996 Top-6 Outstanding American Handgunner Award 1998 Top-4 Outstanding American Handgunner Award 1999 Top-3 Outstanding American Handgunner Award Missouri Sport Shooting Association Kansas Rifle & Pistol Association Member: Handgun Hunter International American Trap Association Safari Club American Hangunners Club 100 Police Marksman Association Varmint Hunters Association Back in the early eighties I wanted a Power Custom PPC S&W, the wait was 18 months. To this day, if you are building a S&W custom revolver most of the tools and parts are Power Custom |
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First hand knowledge... New Smith & Wesson 1911, belonged to a friend of mine who worked for me. He was dry firing it when the hammer broke in half. Kimber a friend of mine was shooting in an IDPA Match, the thumb safety broke off, Kimber quickly replaced it, two week later he was practicing with it and the replacement safety broke off. He now is running an older Colt safety. Being that several of my weapons "go into harms way", I WILL NOT run MIM. In addition, considering that Smith & Wesson's Performance Center REFUSES to use MIM I think that says volumes. Okay, anecdotal data....I have had a 1970s vintage S&W hammer break. |
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MIM is good to go. Quoted:
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I've been noticing some companies that are known for quality and precision machine work are now using MIM to make parts. I remeber people talking down about Colt using MIM to make 1911 parts saying durability was not on par with conventionaly forged / machined parts. Has there been new advancments made in the MIM process that yealds better quality parts now, or are they just cutting corners? MIM is good to go. This. |
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And THAT is why I'm running your bolt catch.
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Our bolt catches are either billet (ABC/R) or machined from forgings (ABC/R-F)
<a href="http://s75.photobucket.com/user/Duffypoo/media/abcrf_zpswqodlk5f.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i314/Duffypoo/abcrf_zpswqodlk5f.jpg</a> <a href="http://s75.photobucket.com/user/Duffypoo/media/mega_zps2zamqtnq.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i314/Duffypoo/mega_zps2zamqtnq.jpg</a> Bolt catches are a pain in the butt to machine, even from forgings that already have the rough shape of the bolt catch. <a href="http://s75.photobucket.com/user/Duffypoo/media/F_zpsw0x3rgru.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i314/Duffypoo/F_zpsw0x3rgru.jpg</a> To my knowledge, War Sport (who makes our ABC/R-F for us) and Forward Controls are the only two companies to offer forged bolt catches (we share and use the same forgings.) And THAT is why I'm running your bolt catch.
Over 30 years of shooting ARs, over 20 years of shooting 3-Gun, over many many many thousands of rounds fired, I never broken a bolt catch. ETA: I've never seen or known of anyone breaking one either, I am thrilled that you are safe with yours. |
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This will be ignored and the MiM hate will continue. MiM when used in places it was meant for in the AR is fine. Quoted:
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The original bolt catches are a cast part. This will be ignored and the MiM hate will continue. MiM when used in places it was meant for in the AR is fine. Get your FACTS straight! MIM is NOT allowed in the TDP! MIM was never used in the original M-16 or AR-15, castings were used. Cast is NOT MIM, MIM stands for metal injected molding. They inject powdered metal with a plastic binder into a mold and heat it. Casting is where molten metal is poured into a mold. |
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Get your FACTS straight! MIM is NOT allowed in the TDP! MIM was never used in the original M-16 or AR-15, castings were used. Cast is NOT MIM, MIM stands for metal injected molding. They inject powdered metal with a plastic binder into a mold and heat it. Casting is where molten metal is poured into a mold. Well, forged or billet bolt catches aren't allowed in the TDP either.... |
| In my opinion, MIM is a process that was developed because too many bean counters are running companies now, based on the bottom line. They have no or little knowledge of the industry. I have watched them destroy great companies like TRW, Federal Mogul and Sealed Power. It is a way to cut expenses and yet have an acceptable failure rate that allows for a better return. I have some MIM flash hiders. Non have failed. There are areas it can be used, and some it should not. The problem is, it is so cost effective, it gets blanket coverage. A selector maybe ok, but a hammer, trigger or bolt catch, not for me. Craig |
| I watched the video. I think it makes my point. Almost all the small parts shown, absolutely would be benefited by MIM. He makes the point that instead of only hundreds of parts being made, now you can get thousands of parts at a lower cost. If you increase productivity 5 or 10 fold, lower cost and only a 10 percent increase(maybe higher in some cases) failure rate, you hit a home run.Great if it is only your Shark vacuum cleaner that failed. Not so great if you are in hot Pursuit. |
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Over 30 years of shooting ARs, over 20 years of shooting 3-Gun, over many many many thousands of rounds fired, I never broken a bolt catch. ETA: I've never seen or known of anyone breaking one either, I am thrilled that you are safe with yours. Quoted:
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Our bolt catches are either billet (ABC/R) or machined from forgings (ABC/R-F)
<a href="http://s75.photobucket.com/user/Duffypoo/media/abcrf_zpswqodlk5f.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i314/Duffypoo/abcrf_zpswqodlk5f.jpg</a> <a href="http://s75.photobucket.com/user/Duffypoo/media/mega_zps2zamqtnq.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i314/Duffypoo/mega_zps2zamqtnq.jpg</a> Bolt catches are a pain in the butt to machine, even from forgings that already have the rough shape of the bolt catch. <a href="http://s75.photobucket.com/user/Duffypoo/media/F_zpsw0x3rgru.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i314/Duffypoo/F_zpsw0x3rgru.jpg</a> To my knowledge, War Sport (who makes our ABC/R-F for us) and Forward Controls are the only two companies to offer forged bolt catches (we share and use the same forgings.) And THAT is why I'm running your bolt catch.
Over 30 years of shooting ARs, over 20 years of shooting 3-Gun, over many many many thousands of rounds fired, I never broken a bolt catch. ETA: I've never seen or known of anyone breaking one either, I am thrilled that you are safe with yours. I have seen several broken on the Civilian side and the .mil. Forged will render a stronger part. |
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ABC/R (billet) or ABC/R-F (forged) were designed to work with ambidextrous mag catches that make the bolt catch's lower paddle difficult to access. The user can easily discern the ABC/R's control surface from others without a visual. The prominent notch between its upper and lower paddle serves to give the user tactile feedback re: his finger's location on the bolt catch, also without diverting a glance to it, it's an advantage in low light or no light environment, with or without gloves.
ABC/R is machined from a solid block. ABC/R-F is machined from forgings. MIM would have saved quite a bit of cost, forging dies weren't cheap, and we still have to machine the forgings into ABC/R-F's final shape. Investment wise, it would have been better to go MIM, as per unit price is much lower. But lining our pocket with more profit isn't our way, this was designed and made for users. The moment a company treats profit as more important than its customers, I'd say it's lost its way. This is not to say that companies that make MIM parts are greedy, they have their reasons to do it, we have ours not to. Now this doesn't go into whether MIM is inferior to billet or forged, but MIM does carry its share of stigma which we're happy to do without. Thus all of our products are either billet or forged. |
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This video is an excellent, technically appropriate explanation of how MIM works. It is a good choice for replacing cast parts that are hard to keep consistent, and it is a good choice for parts that are cast and then require substantial machining and clean up. That quality, replacing cast parts, is the important point. Yes, the original M16 bolt catch was a cast part (mold line and everything), but bolt catches aren't the most complex part of the rifle, and they aren't required to put up with really challenging loads. Cast and machined bolt catches WILL fail from time to time - ask anyone who's done much shooting with a 9mm AR. So a MIM bolt catch is no big deal. A MIM extractor? No thanks. A MIM bolt key? Maybe... It all depends on the specific application AND how well the MIM designer fits the part to the application. |
| I called a buddy of mine who does investment casting. I wanted his opinion. I did not know it but He is also now doing MIM as well. He said that for ultimate strength, investment casting(lost wax) with ceramic molds will be a little stronger than MIM. This is assuming both are done properly. Ceramic molds are heated to a temperature slightly higher than the molten metal. This allows the cavity to be filled with out premature cooling and voids. As it cools. the ceramic mold insulates the part and controls the cooling rate. Also you can get more complex with the design because the ceramic breaks away from the part. MIM is injected into the mold cold. It is taken out and then heated to a temperature that melts out the binding agent, and heats the powdered metal just enough to fuse or bind together(sintering) . He said that what can happen is that there are voids from the binder gassing off and if the temp cycle is not done properly, those voids will not bind together as the part shrinks. Erik said the reason MIM gets a bad rap is because there are really good expensive metal powders and there are really cheap powders. I f you do not use the correct powder for the application,and do not get the heat cycles right, you can end up with a compromised part. He loves MIM. It has made life easier for 80 percent of what he does. Parts that require absolute highest strength, he uses cast.Craig |
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In addition, considering that Smith & Wesson's Performance Center REFUSES to use MIM I think that says volumes. S&W PC doesn't use MIM more likely because folks who say "MIM IS SHIT" wouldn't pay the inflated prices. Now, I'm not saying MIM is perfect for everything, but I'm not going to reject a gun (or anything else) just because it may have some MIM parts in it. |
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Over 30 years of shooting ARs, over 20 years of shooting 3-Gun, over many many many thousands of rounds fired, I never broken a bolt catch. ETA: I've never seen or known of anyone breaking one either, I am thrilled that you are safe with yours. Quoted:
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Our bolt catches are either billet (ABC/R) or machined from forgings (ABC/R-F)
<a href="http://s75.photobucket.com/user/Duffypoo/media/abcrf_zpswqodlk5f.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i314/Duffypoo/abcrf_zpswqodlk5f.jpg</a> <a href="http://s75.photobucket.com/user/Duffypoo/media/mega_zps2zamqtnq.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i314/Duffypoo/mega_zps2zamqtnq.jpg</a> Bolt catches are a pain in the butt to machine, even from forgings that already have the rough shape of the bolt catch. <a href="http://s75.photobucket.com/user/Duffypoo/media/F_zpsw0x3rgru.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i314/Duffypoo/F_zpsw0x3rgru.jpg</a> To my knowledge, War Sport (who makes our ABC/R-F for us) and Forward Controls are the only two companies to offer forged bolt catches (we share and use the same forgings.) And THAT is why I'm running your bolt catch.
Over 30 years of shooting ARs, over 20 years of shooting 3-Gun, over many many many thousands of rounds fired, I never broken a bolt catch. ETA: I've never seen or known of anyone breaking one either, I am thrilled that you are safe with yours. i've personally had a broken bolt catch before. it was from LMT too. |
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S&W PC doesn't use MIM more likely because folks who say "MIM IS SHIT" wouldn't pay the inflated prices. Now, I'm not saying MIM is perfect for everything, but I'm not going to reject a gun (or anything else) just because it may have some MIM parts in it. Quoted:
In addition, considering that Smith & Wesson's Performance Center REFUSES to use MIM I think that says volumes. S&W PC doesn't use MIM more likely because folks who say "MIM IS SHIT" wouldn't pay the inflated prices. Now, I'm not saying MIM is perfect for everything, but I'm not going to reject a gun (or anything else) just because it may have some MIM parts in it. I can't believe a premium product would use premium components. Next thing we'll hear is BMW uses better leather than GM. 
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Your statement has proved who the IDIOT is!!! Ron Power Charter Member American Pistolsmiths Guild 1986 Pistolsmith of the Year Award Life Memberships: N.R.A 1991 Received the N.R.A Professional Public Service Award Outstanding American Handgunner 1992 Top-10 Outstanding American Handgunner Award 1996 Top-6 Outstanding American Handgunner Award 1998 Top-4 Outstanding American Handgunner Award 1999 Top-3 Outstanding American Handgunner Award Missouri Sport Shooting Association Kansas Rifle & Pistol Association Member: Handgun Hunter International American Trap Association Safari Club American Hangunners Club 100 Police Marksman Association Varmint Hunters Association Back in the early eighties I wanted a Power Custom PPC S&W, the wait was 18 months. To this day, if you are building a S&W custom revolver most of the tools and parts are Power Custom Quoted:
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There is an interesting comment found in the March/April 2009 issue of American Handgunner. On page 65 there is a picture associated with the article "S&W's Performance Center." The article was written by Roy Huntington. The caption for the pic reads "Forged Performance Center (PC) parts on the left, MIM factory parts on the right. Is there a difference? The PC thinks so and spares no expense." For those of you who know who Ron Power of Power Custom is, he made this statement to me.... "MIM is the single worst thing to happen to the firearms industry, there is only reason for it. TO CUT COSTS" And Ron is an idiot Your statement has proved who the IDIOT is!!! Ron Power Charter Member American Pistolsmiths Guild 1986 Pistolsmith of the Year Award Life Memberships: N.R.A 1991 Received the N.R.A Professional Public Service Award Outstanding American Handgunner 1992 Top-10 Outstanding American Handgunner Award 1996 Top-6 Outstanding American Handgunner Award 1998 Top-4 Outstanding American Handgunner Award 1999 Top-3 Outstanding American Handgunner Award Missouri Sport Shooting Association Kansas Rifle & Pistol Association Member: Handgun Hunter International American Trap Association Safari Club American Hangunners Club 100 Police Marksman Association Varmint Hunters Association Back in the early eighties I wanted a Power Custom PPC S&W, the wait was 18 months. To this day, if you are building a S&W custom revolver most of the tools and parts are Power Custom I could care less. I can guarantee you I know more about manufacturing than he does...and he is still wrong. |
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Get your FACTS straight! MIM is NOT allowed in the TDP! MIM was never used in the original M-16 or AR-15, castings were used. Cast is NOT MIM, MIM stands for metal injected molding. They inject powdered metal with a plastic binder into a mold and heat it. Casting is where molten metal is poured into a mold. Quoted:
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The original bolt catches are a cast part. This will be ignored and the MiM hate will continue. MiM when used in places it was meant for in the AR is fine. Get your FACTS straight! MIM is NOT allowed in the TDP! MIM was never used in the original M-16 or AR-15, castings were used. Cast is NOT MIM, MIM stands for metal injected molding. They inject powdered metal with a plastic binder into a mold and heat it. Casting is where molten metal is poured into a mold. Are you a DCMA QAS? Do you have the TDP? Do you work for TACOM? |
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ABC/R (billet) or ABC/R-F (forged) were designed to work with ambidextrous mag catches that make the bolt catch's lower paddle difficult to access. The user can easily discern the ABC/R's control surface from others without a visual. The prominent notch between its upper and lower paddle serves to give the user tactile feedback re: his finger's location on the bolt catch, also without diverting a glance to it, it's an advantage in low light or no light environment, with or without gloves. ABC/R is machined from a solid block. ABC/R-F is machined from forgings. MIM would have saved quite a bit of cost, forging dies weren't cheap, and we still have to machine the forgings into ABC/R-F's final shape. Investment wise, it would have been better to go MIM, as per unit price is much lower. But lining our pocket with more profit isn't our way, this was designed and made for users. The moment a company treats profit as more important than its customers, I'd say it's lost its way. This is not to say that companies that make MIM parts are greedy, they have their reasons to do it, we have ours not to. Now this doesn't go into whether MIM is inferior to billet or forged, but MIM does carry its share of stigma which we're happy to do without. Thus all of our products are either billet or forged. Your parts look real nice. |
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i've personally had a broken bolt catch before. it was from LMT too. Quoted:
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Our bolt catches are either billet (ABC/R) or machined from forgings (ABC/R-F)
<a href="http://s75.photobucket.com/user/Duffypoo/media/abcrf_zpswqodlk5f.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i314/Duffypoo/abcrf_zpswqodlk5f.jpg</a> <a href="http://s75.photobucket.com/user/Duffypoo/media/mega_zps2zamqtnq.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i314/Duffypoo/mega_zps2zamqtnq.jpg</a> Bolt catches are a pain in the butt to machine, even from forgings that already have the rough shape of the bolt catch. <a href="http://s75.photobucket.com/user/Duffypoo/media/F_zpsw0x3rgru.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i314/Duffypoo/F_zpsw0x3rgru.jpg</a> To my knowledge, War Sport (who makes our ABC/R-F for us) and Forward Controls are the only two companies to offer forged bolt catches (we share and use the same forgings.) And THAT is why I'm running your bolt catch.
Over 30 years of shooting ARs, over 20 years of shooting 3-Gun, over many many many thousands of rounds fired, I never broken a bolt catch. ETA: I've never seen or known of anyone breaking one either, I am thrilled that you are safe with yours. i've personally had a broken bolt catch before. it was from LMT too. Sorry to hear that, I'd be surprised LMT was using MIM. I had a LMT before, it appeared cast. Regardless, what I posted is what I posted. |
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Sorry to hear that, I'd be surprised LMT was using MIM. I had a LMT before, it appeared cast. Regardless, what I posted is what I posted. Quoted:
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Our bolt catches are either billet (ABC/R) or machined from forgings (ABC/R-F)
<a href="http://s75.photobucket.com/user/Duffypoo/media/abcrf_zpswqodlk5f.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i314/Duffypoo/abcrf_zpswqodlk5f.jpg</a> <a href="http://s75.photobucket.com/user/Duffypoo/media/mega_zps2zamqtnq.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i314/Duffypoo/mega_zps2zamqtnq.jpg</a> Bolt catches are a pain in the butt to machine, even from forgings that already have the rough shape of the bolt catch. <a href="http://s75.photobucket.com/user/Duffypoo/media/F_zpsw0x3rgru.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i314/Duffypoo/F_zpsw0x3rgru.jpg</a> To my knowledge, War Sport (who makes our ABC/R-F for us) and Forward Controls are the only two companies to offer forged bolt catches (we share and use the same forgings.) And THAT is why I'm running your bolt catch.
Over 30 years of shooting ARs, over 20 years of shooting 3-Gun, over many many many thousands of rounds fired, I never broken a bolt catch. ETA: I've never seen or known of anyone breaking one either, I am thrilled that you are safe with yours. i've personally had a broken bolt catch before. it was from LMT too. Sorry to hear that, I'd be surprised LMT was using MIM. I had a LMT before, it appeared cast. Regardless, what I posted is what I posted. I have seen it with cast parts too. |
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Sorry to hear that, I'd be surprised LMT was using MIM. I had a LMT before, it appeared cast. Regardless, what I posted is what I posted. Quoted:
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Our bolt catches are either billet (ABC/R) or machined from forgings (ABC/R-F)
<a href="http://s75.photobucket.com/user/Duffypoo/media/abcrf_zpswqodlk5f.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i314/Duffypoo/abcrf_zpswqodlk5f.jpg</a> <a href="http://s75.photobucket.com/user/Duffypoo/media/mega_zps2zamqtnq.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i314/Duffypoo/mega_zps2zamqtnq.jpg</a> Bolt catches are a pain in the butt to machine, even from forgings that already have the rough shape of the bolt catch. <a href="http://s75.photobucket.com/user/Duffypoo/media/F_zpsw0x3rgru.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i314/Duffypoo/F_zpsw0x3rgru.jpg</a> To my knowledge, War Sport (who makes our ABC/R-F for us) and Forward Controls are the only two companies to offer forged bolt catches (we share and use the same forgings.) And THAT is why I'm running your bolt catch.
Over 30 years of shooting ARs, over 20 years of shooting 3-Gun, over many many many thousands of rounds fired, I never broken a bolt catch. ETA: I've never seen or known of anyone breaking one either, I am thrilled that you are safe with yours. i've personally had a broken bolt catch before. it was from LMT too. Sorry to hear that, I'd be surprised LMT was using MIM. I had a LMT before, it appeared cast. Regardless, what I posted is what I posted. Awhile back LMT was using MIM carrier keys. There were several reports of cracking where they were staked. |
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I could care less. I can guarantee you I know more about manufacturing than he does...and he is still wrong. Quoted:
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There is an interesting comment found in the March/April 2009 issue of American Handgunner. On page 65 there is a picture associated with the article "S&W's Performance Center." The article was written by Roy Huntington. The caption for the pic reads "Forged Performance Center (PC) parts on the left, MIM factory parts on the right. Is there a difference? The PC thinks so and spares no expense." For those of you who know who Ron Power of Power Custom is, he made this statement to me.... "MIM is the single worst thing to happen to the firearms industry, there is only reason for it. TO CUT COSTS" And Ron is an idiot Your statement has proved who the IDIOT is!!! Ron Power Charter Member American Pistolsmiths Guild 1986 Pistolsmith of the Year Award Life Memberships: N.R.A 1991 Received the N.R.A Professional Public Service Award Outstanding American Handgunner 1992 Top-10 Outstanding American Handgunner Award 1996 Top-6 Outstanding American Handgunner Award 1998 Top-4 Outstanding American Handgunner Award 1999 Top-3 Outstanding American Handgunner Award Missouri Sport Shooting Association Kansas Rifle & Pistol Association Member: Handgun Hunter International American Trap Association Safari Club American Hangunners Club 100 Police Marksman Association Varmint Hunters Association Back in the early eighties I wanted a Power Custom PPC S&W, the wait was 18 months. To this day, if you are building a S&W custom revolver most of the tools and parts are Power Custom I could care less. I can guarantee you I know more about manufacturing than he does...and he is still wrong. I agree that memberships and marksmanship aren't appropriate credentials for deciding how and of what a gun part is made. It's important for everyone to keep in mind that "operators" should have a say in how a weapon fits them, and how it operates. Manufacturing processes are not something the "operator" should have anything to do with. It's an engineering specialty that has nothing to do with running a weapon and everything to do with making sure parts are robust and interoperate properly. Too many people equate "operator" with "fighter pilot" and assume that since fighter pilots know a lot about the innards of their aircraft that "operators" should likewise know a lot about the detailed internals of their weapons. That's not true; fighter pilots tend to have degrees in aerospace engineering (you gotta have a degree to be a fighter pilot, not so with "operators"). Further, the design of that aircraft is one thing - what materials it's made of and how they're manufactured is completely separate. A fighter pilot may be able to assemble important parts of his aircraft, but he's not going to walk into a shop and fabricate any of those parts - and neither is an "operator" going to fabricate a critical operational part of his weapon. |
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I agree that memberships and marksmanship aren't appropriate credentials for deciding how and of what a gun part is made. It's important for everyone to keep in mind that "operators" should have a say in how a weapon fits them, and how it operates. Manufacturing processes are not something the "operator" should have anything to do with. It's an engineering specialty that has nothing to do with running a weapon and everything to do with making sure parts are robust and interoperate properly. Too many people equate "operator" with "fighter pilot" and assume that since fighter pilots know a lot about the innards of their aircraft that "operators" should likewise know a lot about the detailed internals of their weapons. That's not true; fighter pilots tend to have degrees in aerospace engineering (you gotta have a degree to be a fighter pilot, not so with "operators"). Further, the design of that aircraft is one thing - what materials it's made of and how they're manufactured is completely separate. A fighter pilot may be able to assemble important parts of his aircraft, but he's not going to walk into a shop and fabricate any of those parts - and neither is an "operator" going to fabricate a critical operational part of his weapon. You would surprised at how little fighter pilots know about building and maintaining airplanes, and even aerodynamics (other than basic theory, at any rate).... Most all the pilots I knew did not even have a technical degree, most were BAs... That's why the Operators manual for a fighter is a thousand page book with the important pages marked on the edges and a checklist that fit on your knee-board. |
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Awhile back LMT was using MIM carrier keys. There were several reports of cracking where they were staked. You used to see LMT bolt catches broken on here quite a bit. I have no idea if they are MIM or not. Also, LMT gas keys are still MIM with a nitrided finish. I have 4 LMT Enhanced carriers, 2 of which I just received a week ago. All 4 of them had staking that was cracked and all 4 of them had stripped or nearly stripped out screw heads. I have replaced all of the MIM gas keys on my LMT carriers. |
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A casual search yields broken AR bolt catches around the pivot pin area, it is the weakest area of the bolt catch.
Not all the manufacturers adhere to specs and tolerances, and accidents on the part of the user (let fly the hammer resulting in hammer strike on the bolt catch), these are but two variables in the bolt catch's life span. The pivot pin hole area on the ABC/R and ABC/R-F is significantly reinforced. As long as we were redesigning the bolt catch, we wanted to mitigate its weak point too 
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Quoted: You used to see LMT bolt catches broken on here quite a bit. I have no idea if they are MIM or not. Also, LMT gas keys are still MIM with a nitrided finish. I have 4 LMT Enhanced carriers, 2 of which I just received a week ago. All 4 of them had staking that was cracked and all 4 of them had stripped or nearly stripped out screw heads. I have replaced all of the MIM gas keys on my LMT carriers. Quoted: Quoted: Awhile back LMT was using MIM carrier keys. There were several reports of cracking where they were staked. You used to see LMT bolt catches broken on here quite a bit. I have no idea if they are MIM or not. Also, LMT gas keys are still MIM with a nitrided finish. I have 4 LMT Enhanced carriers, 2 of which I just received a week ago. All 4 of them had staking that was cracked and all 4 of them had stripped or nearly stripped out screw heads. I have replaced all of the MIM gas keys on my LMT carriers. AFAIK LMT redesigned their bolt catch quite a while back. The new ones are a lot beefier than normal BCs. No idea if they are/were MIM though. The slight "cracking" on the carrier keys was supposedly superficial, and I still have never seen one that actually broke or otherwise caused a problem. |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - MIM Parts (Page 1 of 2)
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