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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - New, High-End, Complete AR Options (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 6/20/2015 10:21:05 PM EDT
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I want to buy a really nice AR that I would use for several purposes including three-gun, hunting (white tail deer), and plinking. Because this will be my first AR, I am weary of building it myself. I just don't have any experience in that area. I also don't want to buy a low-end AR that I will end up building-up/modifying over time. I want a high-end, complete AR from a reputable manufacture that is ready to run. I have read several treads on this forum that are similar to this and they compare some of the rifles I am interested in, but I would like to re-evaluate the issue in case some new information/models have become available.
My requirements: 1.) 16"-18" stainless steel or cold hammer forged, threaded barrel 2.) Ambidextrous controls (I am left-handed) 3.) Suppressor capable system (I understand a gas piston system may be preferable for this) *They are now legal in MN. 4.) Common caliber (5.56, 6.8spc, 7.62, 300aac) *5.56 seems to be the most practical for what I want to use the rifle for. 5.) Cerakote ceramic coating - Black 6.) Top and bottom 1913 rails 7.) Mil-Spec. *It would be nice to have a left ejecting rifle, but I am not making it a requirement. |
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The rifles that I am currently looking at, but not limiting myself to:
Barrett REC7 Gen II 16" Flyweight ($2835) and 18" DMR ($3159) Noveske GEN III Switchblock 16" ($2930) LaRue Tactical PredatOBR 16.1" ($2245) and 18" ($2245). Heckler and Koch MR556A1 ($3700 MSRP, but I have seen several for $2900) *Why are H&K guns so expensive? Overhead? Worth it? Daniel Defense M4 Carbine, V11 PRO ($1850) Stag Arms 3G-L ($1479) *It's ejects to the left* Knight Armaments SR-15 E3 MOD 2 ($2150) I will not be able to test fire any of these before buying, so I am trying to get as much information as I can before buying one. I'm sure they are all great guns and I will likely be satisfied with any of them, but I would like to know which of them would be best for what I want to use it for - 3-gun, white tail hunting, and plinking. Currently, I am leaning towards the Barrett and Noveske models, but am open to the others and I am a bit of an H&K fan, but I have not found anyone able to justify the high MSRP despite the fact that everyone who owns one seems to be happy with it. |
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Watch the video. The Barrett REC7 is a purpose made piston AR. That's what I would get. You are not just paying for the name, but precision technology and high quality IMHO. (15:55 minutes into the video)
NUTNFANCY SHOT 2012 Barrett: This Ain't No Deer Rifle |
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My vote goes to the KAC. It's the most thoroughly "refined" (for lack of a better word) of all the "high end" AR's out there and it fits your criteria (except for the Cerakote part, which I'm a little confused as to why you'd want that).
Some words of advice: - Don't worry about it being "sound suppressor capable" from the factory. There are tons of options available in the suppressor market now a days, and they all have their own specific muzzle devices (for the most part). Your best bet here is to figure out which can has the options you're looking for, then get the correct muzzle device to accompany it (some cans even come with the correct muzzle device included). - Piston rifles aren't a necessity and come with their own drawbacks. They're typically quite a bit heavier (and all this weight is towards the muzzle, the last place you want it) and they usually use proprietary parts that are sometimes hard to find. The DI system is plenty reliable enough to negate the need for a piston AR (at least IMO). Also, that Barrett doesn't have any features that I can see that would justify that price. Same with the H&K and Noveske. The SR15 Mod 2 is a downright bargain for what you're getting. |
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Sounds like the SR-15 is going to fit the bill nicely, given your criteria.
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*Why are H&K guns so expensive? Overhead? Worth it? Quoted:
*Why are H&K guns so expensive? Overhead? Worth it? Because they say HK on the side and they hate you. No, they aren't at all worth it IMHO. I also think Barrett and complete Noveske rifles are overpriced as well. Quoted:
Watch the video. The Barrett REC7 is a purpose made piston AR. That's what I would get. You are not just paying for the name, but precision technology and high quality IMHO. (15:55 minutes into the video) NUTNFANCY SHOT 2012 Barrett: This Ain't No Deer Rifle nutnfancy is the last place I would be taking advice from on spending this much money on an AR. That dude is absolutely clueless, and his ego makes it even worse. |
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Watch the video. The Barrett REC7 is a purpose made piston AR. That's what I would get. You are not just paying for the name, but precision technology and high quality IMHO. (15:55 minutes into the video) NUTNFANCY SHOT 2012 Barrett: This Ain't No Deer Rifle I am definitely not an expert on this subject, but consensus I have read are that the piston systems give up a little accuracy compared to DI. Will this shoot as good as the others mentioned (in terms of accuracy)? |
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Axts also has a nice ambi rifle. If you want a piston rifle look at LWRC.
http://axtsweapons.com/rifles/MI-T556-Carbine Id probably get the stag if I was a lefty and buying my first rifle. I would think the left eject would be a real benefit suppressed, but I don't personally have any experience with Stag products. |
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Sounds like the SR-15 is going to fit the bill nicely, given your criteria. ' Because they say HK on the side and they hate you. No, they aren't at all worth it IMHO. I also think Barrett and complete Noveske rifles are overpriced as well. nutnfancy is the last place I would be taking advice from on spending this much money on an AR. That dude is absolutely clueless, and his ego makes it even worse. Quoted:
Sounds like the SR-15 is going to fit the bill nicely, given your criteria. ' Quoted:
*Why are H&K guns so expensive? Overhead? Worth it? Because they say HK on the side and they hate you. No, they aren't at all worth it IMHO. I also think Barrett and complete Noveske rifles are overpriced as well. Quoted:
Watch the video. The Barrett REC7 is a purpose made piston AR. That's what I would get. You are not just paying for the name, but precision technology and high quality IMHO. (15:55 minutes into the video) NUTNFANCY SHOT 2012 Barrett: This Ain't No Deer Rifle nutnfancy is the last place I would be taking advice from on spending this much money on an AR. That dude is absolutely clueless, and his ego makes it even worse. Yeah, I'm pretty sure Nutnfancy was the one who couldn't install a gas block correctly on an AR and blamed the manufacturer. Last guy I'd be taking advice from on this subject. |
| If you are left handed check out Stag Arms. It wasn't Nutnfancy I was talking about, but Mr Barrett speaking about the REC7 at 15:55 minutes into the video. |
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I am definitely not an expert on this subject, but consensus I have read are that the piston systems give up a little accuracy compared to DI. Will this shoot as good as the others mentioned (in terms of accuracy)? Quoted:
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Watch the video. The Barrett REC7 is a purpose made piston AR. That's what I would get. You are not just paying for the name, but precision technology and high quality IMHO. (15:55 minutes into the video) NUTNFANCY SHOT 2012 Barrett: This Ain't No Deer Rifle I am definitely not an expert on this subject, but consensus I have read are that the piston systems give up a little accuracy compared to DI. Will this shoot as good as the others mentioned (in terms of accuracy)? Supposedly, due to the more direct connection with the op-rod between the receiver and GB as opposed to the less solid gas tube on a DI rifle. I haven't seen any definitive testing on the subject to decisively make that claim though. The main detractors (IMO) are the weight and added complexity of parts, with little to show (if anything) in the "positives" category. |
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Yeah, I'm pretty sure Nutnfancy was the one who couldn't install a gas block correctly on an AR and blamed the manufacturer. Last guy I'd be taking advice from on this subject. Quoted:
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Sounds like the SR-15 is going to fit the bill nicely, given your criteria. ' Quoted:
*Why are H&K guns so expensive? Overhead? Worth it? Because they say HK on the side and they hate you. No, they aren't at all worth it IMHO. I also think Barrett and complete Noveske rifles are overpriced as well. Quoted:
Watch the video. The Barrett REC7 is a purpose made piston AR. That's what I would get. You are not just paying for the name, but precision technology and high quality IMHO. (15:55 minutes into the video) NUTNFANCY SHOT 2012 Barrett: This Ain't No Deer Rifle nutnfancy is the last place I would be taking advice from on spending this much money on an AR. That dude is absolutely clueless, and his ego makes it even worse. Yeah, I'm pretty sure Nutnfancy was the one who couldn't install a gas block correctly on an AR and blamed the manufacturer. Last guy I'd be taking advice from on this subject. Yep. He buys a new LaRue upper, screws the gas block alignment up, blames LaRue, sends it to them to fix, then he screws it up AGAIN (because he just had to have that PRI block), and still blames LaRue. He doesn't know how ignorant he is. |
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Sounds like the SR-15 is going to fit the bill nicely, given your criteria. ' Because they say HK on the side and they hate you. No, they aren't at all worth it IMHO. I also think Barrett and complete Noveske rifles are overpriced as well. nutnfancy is the last place I would be taking advice from on spending this much money on an AR. That dude is absolutely clueless, and his ego makes it even worse. Quoted:
Sounds like the SR-15 is going to fit the bill nicely, given your criteria. ' Quoted:
*Why are H&K guns so expensive? Overhead? Worth it? Because they say HK on the side and they hate you. No, they aren't at all worth it IMHO. I also think Barrett and complete Noveske rifles are overpriced as well. Quoted:
Watch the video. The Barrett REC7 is a purpose made piston AR. That's what I would get. You are not just paying for the name, but precision technology and high quality IMHO. (15:55 minutes into the video) NUTNFANCY SHOT 2012 Barrett: This Ain't No Deer Rifle nutnfancy is the last place I would be taking advice from on spending this much money on an AR. That dude is absolutely clueless, and his ego makes it even worse. You hit the nail on the head |
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KAC for me. I've owned a few black rifles, and nothing comes close when you compare the features to the cost. Buy once, cry again when it's optic time. Realizing that a T-1 was a "cheap" optic is not a comfortable moment.  T1s are not cheap optics, if that's what you are implying. |
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Thanks for the responses. I looked at the LWRC IC-A5 16' ($2750) 18" DMR ($2800) and the AXTS MI-T556 Carbine 16" with brake ($2895, pre-order). Piston guns interest me because of the advantage with suppressors, which I want but do not need. Although Stag Arms having a left handed rifle is really nice, I am not particularly interested in them. I am leaning towards the Barrett REC7 Gen II 18" DMR, but I am still very interested in Noveske. If Noveske made a left handed version of the 16" Gen III Swithcblock, I would get that over the Barrett.
If you can, tell me more about why the piston system is like "putting more legs on a dog and calling it an octopus." It seems like most people would choose the Noveske over the Barrett. I would like to read more about why that is. |
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Thanks for the responses. I looked at the LWRC IC-A5 16' ($2750) 18" DMR ($2800) and the AXTS MI-T556 Carbine 16" with brake ($2895, pre-order). Piston guns interest me because of the advantage with suppressors, which I want but do not need. Although Stag Arms having a left handed rifle is really nice, I am not particularly interested in them. I am leaning towards the Barrett REC7 Gen II 18" DMR, but I am still very interested in Noveske. If Noveske made a left handed version of the 16" Gen III Swithcblock, I would get that over the Barrett. If you can, tell me more about why the piston system is like "putting more legs on a dog and calling it an octopus." It seems like most people would choose the Noveske over the Barrett. I would like to read more about why that is. My dislike of the piston AR is because they simply don't do anything a DI AR can't. They add complexity and weight to a system that should be simple and light, for little to no gain (sure your BCG will stay a little bit cleaner). We could better answer the question if you can tell us why you think a piston AR is better than DI. If it's because of the suppressor, it may eliminate some gas blowback, but not nearly all of it. Piston guns also tend to be louder in suppressed applications because they vent all their excess gas straight to the atmosphere. As to your questions about the Noveske (or really anything) over the Barrett, it's probably because not a lot of people own them. Due to that small sample size, it's really hard to say how it will perform, and that's a pretty big gamble to take for what they cost (that Noveske is still insanely priced for what you're getting as well). Personally, if I were getting a piston gun, it'd be an LWRC. I still vote KAC, you get quite a bit more for your money (especially with the innovation and engineering that has gone into the Mod 2). IMO, it excels over any other gun on your list in most categories. |
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I have a few SR15's in various lengths and various HK416 uppers in various lengths as well as a the MR556.
If you're only limiting yourself to one, I would buy the SR15. It will come with more features and be accurate enough for your uses. Micro sights, Ambidex fire controls, E3 bolt, soft shooting gas system, KAC rail, all make it a great value. This is not to say the MR556 is not a great rifle because it is. Those who say Piston guns are not as accurate have never shot an MR556. The HK gun is great, but it just doesn't come with the features that the KAC SR15. Also, the standard MR556 rail is shorter and really not suited for competitive use. It also has a match barrel profile so is a bit heavier. It's not heavier because of the piston system, the majority of the weight is the barrel. The MR556 is best used as a precision rifle the way it comes stock. Add an optic and you have a good gentleman's rifle, but not as suited as swinging around like an SR15. So yah, get an SR15 if you are only going to get one. |
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I am leaning towards the Barrett REC7 Gen II 18" DMR, but I am still very interested in Noveske. If Noveske made a left handed version of the 16" Gen III Swithcblock, I would get that over the Barrett. Again, both of those are overpriced for what you get. You could build a much more accurate rifle for about half as much as what they cost. I would never buy a complete rifle from either of those manufacturers at the prices they ask; they simply are not worth it. Given your criteria, I still think a KAC SR-15 is going to be your best choice. It fulfills all of your major requirements and is very fairly priced for what you get. Watch the EE, and you'll be able to find a used one for under $2k. I've seen them as low as $1500. |
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T1s are not cheap optics, if that's what you are implying. Quoted:
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KAC for me. I've owned a few black rifles, and nothing comes close when you compare the features to the cost. Buy once, cry again when it's optic time. Realizing that a T-1 was a "cheap" optic is not a comfortable moment. T1s are not cheap optics, if that's what you are implying. They are compared to a lot of other stuff out there, especially on the EE. |
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They are compared to a lot of other stuff out there, especially on the EE. Quoted:
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KAC for me. I've owned a few black rifles, and nothing comes close when you compare the features to the cost. Buy once, cry again when it's optic time. Realizing that a T-1 was a "cheap" optic is not a comfortable moment. T1s are not cheap optics, if that's what you are implying. They are compared to a lot of other stuff out there, especially on the EE. Compared to other similar red dots, they are not cheap. They're solid optics that are well-proven. It's all relative. An Escalade is cheap compared to a Ferrari, but that doesn't mean anything because they fulfill different purposes and are both great at what they do. |
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I believe LWRC has a promotion right now and you get a T 2 with purchase. Not sure of your laws but IMO 556 is not a great round for white tail hunting. Just not the right tool for the job! Isn't LWRC a piston gun? If it doesn't take standard AR parts it's called a variant. |
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Compared to other similar red dots, they are not cheap. They're solid optics that are well-proven. It's all relative. An Escalade is cheap compared to a Ferrari, but that doesn't mean anything because they fulfill different purposes and are both great at what they do. Quoted:
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KAC for me. I've owned a few black rifles, and nothing comes close when you compare the features to the cost. Buy once, cry again when it's optic time. Realizing that a T-1 was a "cheap" optic is not a comfortable moment. T1s are not cheap optics, if that's what you are implying. They are compared to a lot of other stuff out there, especially on the EE. Compared to other similar red dots, they are not cheap. They're solid optics that are well-proven. It's all relative. An Escalade is cheap compared to a Ferrari, but that doesn't mean anything because they fulfill different purposes and are both great at what they do. Oh, I get what you're saying, and by no means was I saying that it was cheap as in bad. I just meant that in the world of optics, $600 is a steal compared to some other options. Hell, even in the world of red dots, compared to the LCO and SRS, the T-1 is a bargain. |
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Oh, I get what you're saying, and by no means was I saying that it was cheap as in bad. I just meant that in the world of optics, $600 is a steal compared to some other options. Hell, even in the world of red dots, compared to the LCO and SRS, the T-1 is a bargain. Quoted:
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KAC for me. I've owned a few black rifles, and nothing comes close when you compare the features to the cost. Buy once, cry again when it's optic time. Realizing that a T-1 was a "cheap" optic is not a comfortable moment. T1s are not cheap optics, if that's what you are implying. They are compared to a lot of other stuff out there, especially on the EE. Compared to other similar red dots, they are not cheap. They're solid optics that are well-proven. It's all relative. An Escalade is cheap compared to a Ferrari, but that doesn't mean anything because they fulfill different purposes and are both great at what they do. Oh, I get what you're saying, and by no means was I saying that it was cheap as in bad. I just meant that in the world of optics, $600 is a steal compared to some other options. Hell, even in the world of red dots, compared to the LCO and SRS, the T-1 is a bargain. Ah, gotcha. 
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The KAC Argument is a good one. Thanks for the explanations. The E3 bolt is interesting to me and the price is better than the Noveske. I am willing to pay what it takes to get the best rifle for my application, but it is always nice to buy more ammo.
If I don't use this AR 15 for deer hunting, the 5.56 is the most practical caliber. Also, a light weight gun would be better than a heavy gun. So a DI gun will be fine as long as it will not have issues with the suppressor? Can I get a KAC SR-15 Lower (because I like the E3 BCG)? I really like the Noveske Swtichblock 16" upper ($1840) and the Noveske Raptor ambi charging handle ($90.00). I realize I began this post looking for a complete rifle, but this was inevitable. Each company is going to have strengths. Noveske makes great barrels. The KAC E3 BCG is a really good concept. What do you guys think? |
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The KAC Argument is a good one. Thanks for the explanations. The E3 bolt is interesting to me and the price is better than the Noveske. I am willing to pay what it takes to get the best rifle for my application, but it is always nice to buy more ammo. If I don't use this AR 15 for deer hunting, the 5.56 is the most practical caliber. Also, a light weight gun would be better than a heavy gun. So a DI gun will be fine as long as it will not have issues with the suppressor? Can I get a KAC SR-15 Lower (because I like the E3 BCG)? I really like the Noveske Swtichblock 16" upper ($1840) and the Noveske Raptor ambi charging handle ($90.00). I realize I began this post looking for a complete rifle, but this was inevitable. Each company is going to have strengths. Noveske makes great barrels. The KAC E3 BCG is a really good concept. What do you guys think? Well, you can get a KAC lower, but that won't include the E3 BCG. KAC does make a great lower-the ambi controls are awesome, as is the trigger-but of all the great parts in a KAC rifle, the bolt is arguably the most impressive, and definitely the most unique. I already stated my opinion above, but the two times that I've bought a boutique AR I went with a KAC, and I haven't looked back. |
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Thanks for the responses. I looked at the LWRC IC-A5 16' ($2750) 18" DMR ($2800) and the AXTS MI-T556 Carbine 16" with brake ($2895, pre-order). Piston guns interest me because of the advantage with suppressors, which I want but do not need. Although Stag Arms having a left handed rifle is really nice, I am not particularly interested in them. I am leaning towards the Barrett REC7 Gen II 18" DMR, but I am still very interested in Noveske. If Noveske made a left handed version of the 16" Gen III Swithcblock, I would get that over the Barrett. If you can, tell me more about why the piston system is like "putting more legs on a dog and calling it an octopus." It seems like most people would choose the Noveske over the Barrett. I would like to read more about why that is. i'm not going to get into a pissing contest about DI over piston as it's been done several times here before. i will tell you that i have an HK MR556A1, a KAC SR015, a Barrett REC7 in 6.8, Daniel Defesnse , in additional to several other rifles. i'm saying this because for ME when i go to grab a dependable rifle i grab the Barrett REC7 6.8. i run an Innovative Arms suppressor with it and have no issues. it's just what works best for me. i have several rifles including SBRs that i use for different purposes. Hunting i grab the REC7. if your interested in specs on the 6.8 SPC all i will say is go and visit 86forums.com and just see for yourself what works best. you will most likely get a bunch of different answers to your question however this is what works for me. if you would like to ask me any specific questions feel free to PM or message me. MB |
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Here is two others you might consider:
American defense uic mod 3 Hodge defense au mod 2 Both those have great systems to improve reliability and are ambi. Also axts has a rifle that's ambi with a match barrel and raptor charging handle for 3 grand. It's maybe overpriced but maybe up your alley. |
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Without getting into a pissing match, do some research on LaRue before you buy from them, there are some people who don't like the owner of the company for varying reasons.
I have a Noveske, and would highly recommend one. The fit and finish is superb, I would also vote for KAC, they are top notch as well. If you want a piston, I would personally go with LWRC. You can also do what I did, and buy a stripped lower, put in it what you want, and then buy a factory upper. To me, it's the best of both worlds because it wouldn't be cost-effective for me to change out all the parts on a factory rifle. Buy what you want...just do research on what you want before you buy it, and let that help your decision. Without a doubt though, IMO, Noveske and KAC should really be looked at heavily. |
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Those all come from reputable names. I think Barrett is WAY over priced and so is HK. Maybe you should look at Bud's. They have them for $2000-2200 which is not bad for a quality purpose built piston rifle. EDIT- You guys are right. DI rifles work just fine as long as you like spending your time cleaning them. Not for me. As far as extra parts. What, an extra spring in the BCG? No big deal to me. Peace! 
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If you want the best general purpose rifle, get a KAC SR15 Mod1 or Mod2.
If you want the most accurate rifle, get a Larue. If you want a piston system rifle, get a LWRC IC A5. I would recommend the SR15 for the criteria you mentioned. From my experience of 4 different SR15 Mod1, they are all capable of 1MOA using CBC 77gr OTM which is plenty accurate. The SR15 rifles are very reliable, I had never experienced any issues, even after 2500+ rounds with no additional maintenance and oil. |
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Honestly the best of everything for you is a rifle you build yourself to your needs. I can tell you are leaning this direction already. My first rifle I built from scratch. I built a noveske infidel but because I'm so picky I built it with stripped parts to add my upgrades with minimal lose from extra parts I didn't want. I'm still building it and I've learned so much from researching all the parts.
Good luck. |
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I've owned almost all of the brands you are considering and each has their own features that some will find more important than others. For me, I consider my KAC Sr15 my general purpose hard use rifle and it has treated me well over the last 17k rounds with only 4-5 total malfunctions that were ammo related. I've ran all my KAC rifles suppressed and never had a single issue. Most, if not all, of KAC's R&D testing is based off of suppressor use so, you can be rest assured that you should not have an issue with a can.
My Noveske's were definitely accurate but, I do not think they are worth the asking price when you can build or buy and upper for less and get the same results. I do however still support the company because I first started buying their products when they first started and John/Sheri were very good friends of the shop I work at and they have always supported us even after they became so popular. I still own a few and the switchblock for suppressor use is a nice feature. I used to own a Rec7 but, I got out of the 6.8 game and really have no complaints about the rifle. I also owned a couple of LWRC's and still own one but, over time, they did not do anything better than a quality DI and the weight difference up front ended up being the main reason I got rid of them. I first bought them because of the hype surrounding suppressor use but, they still got just as dirty cause of the blowback coming back down the barrel. These were 2007 examples and LWRC has really stepped up their game, so much so, I personally feel that they are one of the best piston AR's available. My Larue OBR shoot lights out and the quality of the machining is some of the best I've ever seen. It's like they hand fit all the parts like a 1911 compared to some of the other AR's I've owned. I just wish they offered their PST gas block on every rifle for suppressor use. I'll also throw out the LMT MRP series if that is of interest to you since you have different uses. They have a quick change barrel feature and you can buy a SS barrel for hunting, a CL for general purpose, and maybe a short one for an SBR./Suppressor combo. I have the 12" piston and it's a pretty badass rifle. ETA: I have shot plenty of DD rifles and have some of their barrels in a few builds. I consider them on par with BCM/Colt. Great company and build a solid rifle. Very affordable but, wouldn't consider them high end. Same with Stag. I've never owned an H&K AR but, have a good amount of trigger time behind a FA 416. H&K's are kind of like LWRC's to me personally and they run really well but, are just too front heavy for what they are. I am also left handed and never had an issue with running a standard AR suppressed. |
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I would take a look at the KAC SR-15 LPR which has a Kreiger 18" SS barrel. There are some decent deals on slightly used one if you want to save a few dollars.
The LWRC is not a bad deal now with the free Aimpoint promo if are planning on a red dot. I have a SR-15 Mod1 that has been very reliable for me. |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - New, High-End, Complete AR Options (Page 1 of 2)
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