AR Sponsor
Posted: 4/24/2015 6:23:33 PM EDT
|
What's considered good, bad or average?
Here's what I'm using: * A DPMS oracle, 16" pencil barrel, it has 180 rds through it, I followed the recommended barrel breakin procedures 100%. * I did a run of the mill trigger job on it - bent a couple springs, polished the surfaces, ground off part of hammer so it moves faster, lubed - I like the trigger. * A cheap $30 NCStar 2-6x28 scope, on 6x when bench shooting. * Ammo: Freedom reloads 55g. * A good two heavy sandbag setup that seems to hold the rifle very stable. If those crosshairs were wandering around, I wouldn't be asking about my results. I know, I know - this is not exactly a National Match setup, but I was hoping for better than what I got today (good weather conditions, little wind). Six 5 shot groups: 2.2-3.3",avg=2.7" My thinking right now is that my damned earmuffs were screwing up my cheek weld and my glasses, but I would appreciate some thoughts and perspective. Thanks |
|
Quoted: What's considered good, bad or average? Here's what I'm using: * A DPMS oracle, 16" pencil barrel, it has 180 rds through it, I followed the recommended barrel breakin procedures 100%. * I did a run of the mill trigger job on it - bent a couple springs, polished the surfaces, ground off part of hammer so it moves faster, lubed - I like the trigger. * A cheap $30 NCStar 2-6x28 scope, on 6x when bench shooting. * Ammo: Freedom reloads 55g. * A good two heavy sandbag setup that seems to hold the rifle very stable. If those crosshairs were wandering around, I wouldn't be asking about my results. I know, I know - this is not exactly a National Match setup, but I was hoping for better than what I got today (good weather conditions, little wind). Six 5 shot groups: 2.2-3.3",avg=2.7" My thinking right now is that my damned earmuffs were screwing up my cheek weld and my glasses, but I would appreciate some thoughts and perspective. Thanks A couple of things to consider regarding the Oracle (I use one as my "test bed" for things I want to try out): The Oracle does not have free floated hand guards out of the box. The sandbags are good ... but with a pencil barrel the weight you apply to keep the front of the rifle steady will vary, the variation will affect the POI to a significant degree and will contribute to the spread of the rounds. The use of foam earplugs will give you as good of hearing protection and will eliminate the stock/earmuff/glasses issue. The best I have been able to wring out of my Oracle was an average of 1.5" with .223 reloads ... but that was before I put a free float quad rail on it this winter so I may be able to tighten that up some once I get a chance to go out and spend a day shooting. |
|
I doubt free floating will help enough to justify the cost, especially with what a DPMS Oracle is. A basic carbine, not a precision weapon. Free floating doesn't help basic carbines much if at all. Just sort of cool and fun to do, and trending.
For that rifle and that optic, I'd say you're fine or better. Hopefully the optic setup holds a zero well, though you'll probably string shots to a degree as the barrel heats up. Depends on different things though, like the quality of the barrel. But it's DPMS, so I can assume not the highest. Again, you should be fine or better. |
|
I think most people over estimate their own and/or their rifles accuracy. They expect an honest 1 MOA from an mass produced AR with mass produced ammo and when you're in the real world, shooting from something other than a 200lb concrete block, sub-3" groups at 100 yards are pretty damn good.
But, then again, this is the internet and we're all 7 yard snipers who get sub-MOA groups at any distance. 
|
|
Quoted:
I think most people over estimate their own and/or their rifles accuracy. They expect an honest 1 MOA from an mass produced AR with mass produced ammo and when you're in the real world, shooting from something other than a 200lb concrete block, sub-3" groups at 100 yards are pretty damn good. But, then again, this is the internet and we're all 7 yard snipers who get sub-MOA groups at any distance. Come join us. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
I think most people over estimate their own and/or their rifles accuracy. They expect an honest 1 MOA from an mass produced AR with mass produced ammo and when you're in the real world, shooting from something other than a 200lb concrete block, sub-3" groups at 100 yards are pretty damn good. But, then again, this is the internet and we're all 7 yard snipers who get sub-MOA groups at any distance. Come join us. And? The point I'm making is that out of the millions of people on the net, you have maybe 100 in that thread who have proved it via a set of guidelines. Everyone else just "talks the talk" because it's apparently a gold standard. |
|
Quoted:
I doubt free floating will help enough to justify the cost, especially with what a DPMS Oracle is. A basic carbine, not a precision weapon. Free floating doesn't help basic carbines much if at all. Just sort of cool and fun to do, and trending. For that rifle and that optic, I'd say you're fine or better. Hopefully the optic setup holds a zero well, though you'll probably string shots to a degree as the barrel heats up. Depends on different things though, like the quality of the barrel. But it's DPMS, so I can assume not the highest. Again, you should be fine or better. Free floating helps a basic carbine as much as anything. It just depends on how you use it. I can tell a huge difference because I shoot from different positions a lot. OP really needs to buy a new FCG since he butchered the shit out of his and will be going full auto at some point. Sounds like he is doing about as good as can be expected with his setup. But the chopped up trigger really needs to go. |
|
>OP really needs to buy a new FCG since he butchered the shit out of his and will be going full auto at some point<
I didn't "butcher it. How does bending the springs to reduce the pressure or reducing the hammer tail make it go full auto? I didn't alter the disconnect and I didn't reduce the hammer-trigger notch. Do you have any examples of AR's going full auto from what I did to the trigger group? |
|
Quoted:
>OP really needs to buy a new FCG since he butchered the shit out of his and will be going full auto at some point< I didn't "butcher it. How does bending the springs to reduce the pressure or reducing the hammer tail make it go full auto? I didn't alter the disconnect and I didn't reduce the hammer-trigger notch. Do you have any examples of AR's going full auto from what I did to the trigger group? He's referring to the grind and polishing you did. And he is more than likely correct. Good shooting by the way. |
|
while this is nothing to brag about, it's indicative of the importance of the bullet (the projectile). it's at 100 yards, the top target is M-193's ($100 per 1000, 10c ea.), the bottom is Nosler 55 gr. 39526 Ballistic Tip Varmint ($26ish per 100, 26c each). literally no other difference, i pulled the m193's out and plugged in the Noslers, same bullet weight (55gr.s) same powder, cases, primers, rifle,shooter, day , scope, same. shot the top target, changed mags shot the bottom. (ea ring's, an inch)  i'm just illustrating the bullet difference here, other changes were effective as well, but to build you gotta have a good foundation. |
|
Grouping is highly subjective to many variables. First you have to weigh what the shooter is capable off vs what the gun is capable of vs the ammo used. You can take a match grade gun with match grade reloads but be limited by the trigger puller. 1 to 1.5 moa with any combination is considered pretty good if you can duplicate routinely.
Probably the no 1 variable would be barrel/ammo combination. If the barrel and or ammo together will only get you 2 moa then no matter what other factors are involved, including the trigger puller, you simply cannot improve. Most mass produced barrels tend to limit accuracy somewhat with most factory ammo. There are the occasional "shooters" however. Reloads tailored to specific barrels "can" help. Occasionally you find a crappy barrel likes a specific ammo. Also if shooting for tight groups remember your sight picture. How much area do the cross hairs cover at 100 yards? Remember the code....Aim small, miss small! |
|
Quoted:
>He's referring to the grind and polishing you did. And he is more than likely correct. < Well, I was an M60 gunner when I was in the Marine Corps, so maybe it'll be like being 20 again. ;-) >Good shooting by the way.< Thanks maybe you can talk to Olofson while you're both in prison. I wasn't going to comment on the trigger work, but since everyone else did - what were you thinking? If you want a nice trigger buy one. |
|
>maybe you can talk to Olofson while you're both in prison.
I wasn't going to comment on the trigger work, but since everyone else did - what were you thinking? If you want a nice trigger buy one.< I don't think so. Olofson intentionally created a full auto AR, then loaned it out, for the purpose of selling it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Olofson xxxx added later OK, now my obsessive nature is starting to kick in, and I keep trying to analyze this trigger thing w/ a little caution light blinking in my head. 
I've done trigger work on a Beretta 92 and a CZ. All it amounted to was installing lower compression pounds hammer springs, reducing friction between where the trigger and hammer surfaces interact, polishing surfaces, and applying some KG10 dry lube. 1) On this AR, I reduced the hammer spring by bending it's legs somewhat, similarly reducing the compression. As far as I can see, that could result in light strikes, and failure to fire, not a runaway gun. And, 2) I polished the trigger and hammer surfaces where they interact, WITHOUT changing the surface angles, or removing material past smoothing rough machining marks. And, 3) I reduced the hammer tail which speeds it up travel a little, but also changes its mechanical momentum, which again should only create possible light strikes and failure to fire, but not a runaway gun. I always stay away from messing with trigger springs and parts because the possibility of unintended consequences in what's usually complex mechanisms. But my caution light is blinking, and if I'm missing something here in my thinking, I'd be happy to know what it is. Thanks all. |
| Disclaimer I do own an AR yet, but I do have plenty of experience with factory and Precision bolts. I have had three different rifles that were extremely picky with ammo. One of them, I had for 20 years and tried no less than 30 different types of ammo (if you include all the different reloads) before it finally shot decent. The best I ever did was 1.5 MOA and usually closer to 2. That was with a $500 scope. I basically gave up on it and made it my wife's deer hunting rifle. One time, shortly before deer season, I realized I just about ran out of ammo. I found a new bullet out for it and since I hadn't found anything that is really good before then, I decided to give the new bullet a try. For the first time ever, it grouped slightly below an inch. I had that gun 20 years before I saw the sub MOA group. Point is I would try several different ammos first. If that doesn't work, I would try a scope that has a proven track record before I would write off this gun. |
| Even free floated, my BCM pencil upper never shoots better than 2 MOA with M193 from prone with a sling, and I am very happy with it. For a basic non-free floated carbine with cheap ammo, 2.7 MOA is not bad at all. What targets do you need to be able to hit with it that are smaller than 2.7 MOA? That is more than good enough for the vast majority of 2A/HD/hunting scenarios. A more important question is how good are you without the bench and bags? |
|
Quoted:
Even free floated, my BCM pencil upper never shoots better than 2 MOA with M193 from prone with a sling, and I am very happy with it. For a basic non-free floated carbine with cheap ammo, 2.7 MOA is not bad at all. What targets do you need to be able to hit with it that are smaller than 2.7 MOA? That is more than good enough for the vast majority of 2A/HD/hunting scenarios. A more important question is how good are you without the bench and bags? M193 is not known for it's accuracy! 
|
AR Sponsor