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Help me find out just how accurate "accurate" can be ... (Page 3 of 3)
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I know we are in the realm of AR10s and 7.62. I'll throw this in. It was not the best group o the day; it was the ONLY group.
.223/5.56 77gr BH Blue Box. Krieger barrel, YNM BCG, LT Upper/Lower, Geissele trigger. The other "unfair" aspect of this is that it was shot at 200 yards. I find that at 200, groups are usually not twice as big as at 100. 
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These were shooting for the wrong cut ... 
Kidding aside, cutting rejects in half is a great way to keep them apart from the good ones. 
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God Bless Our Troops ... Especially Our Snipers.
Makers of all things LaRue - the Stealth Uppers, the OBR in 5.56 and 7.62, the PredatAR in both 5.56 and 7.62, the best QD mounts known to mankind ... and so on.
Makers of all things LaRue - the Stealth Uppers, the OBR in 5.56 and 7.62, the PredatAR in both 5.56 and 7.62, the best QD mounts known to mankind ... and so on.
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the baseline is 175/168 fed match, its considered the standard when comparing accuracy across platforms
Agreed. My Ruger MkII Varmint (w/ 32x benchrest scope) easily holds <1/2MOA using handloads. With a 5-shot string of 168gr factory match ammo, I almost always have 4 bullets touching, with one flyer ~1/2" out. With good handloads, everything goes through the same hole. That's my thing - I find multiple holes very irritating. Typical match ammo should be <1MOA, factory hunting ammo and blasting ammo (like Remington green box or UMC yellow) is remarkably bad - generally in the 2-3MOA range. |
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Originally Posted By JayC:
Agreed. My Ruger MkII Varmint (w/ 32x benchrest scope) easily holds <1/2MOA using handloads. With a 5-shot string of 168gr factory match ammo, I almost always have 4 bullets touching, with one flyer ~1/2" out. With good handloads, everything goes through the same hole. That's my thing - I find multiple holes very irritating. Typical match ammo should be <1MOA, factory hunting ammo and blasting ammo (like Remington green box or UMC yellow) is remarkably bad - generally in the 2-3MOA range. Originally Posted By JayC:
the baseline is 175/168 fed match, its considered the standard when comparing accuracy across platforms
Agreed. My Ruger MkII Varmint (w/ 32x benchrest scope) easily holds <1/2MOA using handloads. With a 5-shot string of 168gr factory match ammo, I almost always have 4 bullets touching, with one flyer ~1/2" out. With good handloads, everything goes through the same hole. That's my thing - I find multiple holes very irritating. Typical match ammo should be <1MOA, factory hunting ammo and blasting ammo (like Remington green box or UMC yellow) is remarkably bad - generally in the 2-3MOA range. What is your theory on the cause of that ? |
God Bless Our Troops ... Especially Our Snipers.
Makers of all things LaRue - the Stealth Uppers, the OBR in 5.56 and 7.62, the PredatAR in both 5.56 and 7.62, the best QD mounts known to mankind ... and so on.
Makers of all things LaRue - the Stealth Uppers, the OBR in 5.56 and 7.62, the PredatAR in both 5.56 and 7.62, the best QD mounts known to mankind ... and so on.
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Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical: What is your theory on the cause of that ? Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical: Originally Posted By JayC: the baseline is 175/168 fed match, its considered the standard when comparing accuracy across platforms Agreed. My Ruger MkII Varmint (w/ 32x benchrest scope) easily holds <1/2MOA using handloads. With a 5-shot string of 168gr factory match ammo, I almost always have 4 bullets touching, with one flyer ~1/2" out. With good handloads, everything goes through the same hole. That's my thing - I find multiple holes very irritating. Typical match ammo should be <1MOA, factory hunting ammo and blasting ammo (like Remington green box or UMC yellow) is remarkably bad - generally in the 2-3MOA range. What is your theory on the cause of that ? There is no theory, that is just the way it shoots. I dont mean to be a geek or harping on it, but without understanding the statistics on shooting groups, you will never under stand precision shooting. |
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Originally Posted By JeffinVAB:
There is no theory, that is just the way it shoots. I dont mean to be a geek or harping on it, but without understanding the statistics on shooting groups, you will never under stand precision shooting. Originally Posted By JeffinVAB:
Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical:
Originally Posted By JayC:
the baseline is 175/168 fed match, its considered the standard when comparing accuracy across platforms
Agreed. My Ruger MkII Varmint (w/ 32x benchrest scope) easily holds <1/2MOA using handloads. With a 5-shot string of 168gr factory match ammo, I almost always have 4 bullets touching, with one flyer ~1/2" out. With good handloads, everything goes through the same hole. That's my thing - I find multiple holes very irritating. Typical match ammo should be <1MOA, factory hunting ammo and blasting ammo (like Remington green box or UMC yellow) is remarkably bad - generally in the 2-3MOA range. What is your theory on the cause of that ? There is no theory, that is just the way it shoots. I dont mean to be a geek or harping on it, but without understanding the statistics on shooting groups, you will never under stand precision shooting. Okay I'll bite, "statistics on shooting groups" ? |
God Bless Our Troops ... Especially Our Snipers.
Makers of all things LaRue - the Stealth Uppers, the OBR in 5.56 and 7.62, the PredatAR in both 5.56 and 7.62, the best QD mounts known to mankind ... and so on.
Makers of all things LaRue - the Stealth Uppers, the OBR in 5.56 and 7.62, the PredatAR in both 5.56 and 7.62, the best QD mounts known to mankind ... and so on.
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Mark question on procedure you are using.
How do you load your rounds to fire these strings. What I mean is do you load up a 20 round mag and fire the 4 5 shot groups or do you load 5 shots for each one and have a open bolt at the end of the string? |
If you are gonna be stupid you had better be tough.
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Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical: Okay I'll bite, "statistics on shooting groups" ? Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical: Originally Posted By JeffinVAB: Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical: Originally Posted By JayC: the baseline is 175/168 fed match, its considered the standard when comparing accuracy across platforms Agreed. My Ruger MkII Varmint (w/ 32x benchrest scope) easily holds <1/2MOA using handloads. With a 5-shot string of 168gr factory match ammo, I almost always have 4 bullets touching, with one flyer ~1/2" out. With good handloads, everything goes through the same hole. That's my thing - I find multiple holes very irritating. Typical match ammo should be <1MOA, factory hunting ammo and blasting ammo (like Remington green box or UMC yellow) is remarkably bad - generally in the 2-3MOA range. What is your theory on the cause of that ? There is no theory, that is just the way it shoots. I dont mean to be a geek or harping on it, but without understanding the statistics on shooting groups, you will never under stand precision shooting. Okay I'll bite, "statistics on shooting groups" ? This guy has a basic primer: http://www.the-long-family.com/group_size_analysis.htm Start reading here: Gaussian Distribution – A Simple Model of How Shots are Dispersed
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^ ^^^ ^
But that doesn't address why you yourself see factory ammo slinging 20% of the rounds a half inch out when handloading the same bullets doesn't. |
God Bless Our Troops ... Especially Our Snipers.
Makers of all things LaRue - the Stealth Uppers, the OBR in 5.56 and 7.62, the PredatAR in both 5.56 and 7.62, the best QD mounts known to mankind ... and so on.
Makers of all things LaRue - the Stealth Uppers, the OBR in 5.56 and 7.62, the PredatAR in both 5.56 and 7.62, the best QD mounts known to mankind ... and so on.
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Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical:
Oh go frack yourself ... nobody is looking or talking about fanbois LaRue rifle accuracy - but you truly do your gawddamndest to cancel out anyone that likes anything made by me or my team. How long has your attacking all-things-LaRue been going on ? ... 10 straight years of your anti-LaRue rants day after day, month after month - year after year ...  Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical:
Originally Posted By TaylorWSO:
Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical:
Are you insinuating that no one on ARFcom can shoot as well as the Snipershiders ? Oh go frack yourself ... nobody is looking or talking about fanbois LaRue rifle accuracy - but you truly do your gawddamndest to cancel out anyone that likes anything made by me or my team. How long has your attacking all-things-LaRue been going on ? ... 10 straight years of your anti-LaRue rants day after day, month after month - year after year ... Don't feel bad, he does the same exact shit to me and ST products. He thinks he knows it all, I would love to see the rifles that he produces. |
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Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical:
^ ^^^ ^ But that doesn't address why you yourself see factory ammo slinging 20% of the rounds a half inch out when handloading the same bullets doesn't. It could be me pulling 1 in 5 shots, but I think that it's more than likely just a random distribution in the ammo. Factory ammo just isn't loaded to precision specs. Chrongraph data is the most telling. Match ammo is much more precise than the run of the mill blasting or hunting ammo, but no brand can compete with even a fair hand load, in my experience. It makes me question the validity of those 1500yd sniper shots you hear about. Unless those guys are hand-loading their rounds with a trickler and tuning the bullet weight with a file, those shots have to be 95% luck. As for capacity - I sometimes single-load my target rifle, but more often than not put 5 in the mag. Even with my ARs, if I'm trying to hit what I'm aiming at, I rarely if ever put more than 5 rounds in a mag. I DO still require the 30rd ones though, just cuz... |
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Originally Posted By JayC:
<snip> As for capacity - I sometimes single-load my target rifle, but more often than not put 5 in the mag. Even with my ARs, if I'm trying to hit what I'm aiming at, I rarely if ever put more than 5 rounds in a mag. I DO still require the 30rd ones though, just cuz... Are you talking about 5.56 ? |
God Bless Our Troops ... Especially Our Snipers.
Makers of all things LaRue - the Stealth Uppers, the OBR in 5.56 and 7.62, the PredatAR in both 5.56 and 7.62, the best QD mounts known to mankind ... and so on.
Makers of all things LaRue - the Stealth Uppers, the OBR in 5.56 and 7.62, the PredatAR in both 5.56 and 7.62, the best QD mounts known to mankind ... and so on.
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I have an older Rem 700 Police, circa 1995, that can shoot a hair under .5 MOA at 100 with handloads but I haven't tried Federal Gold match yet. If I get out this weekend I will bring her and see what she can do. I don't have much Federal ammo, maybe 3-4 targets worth.
Craig |
http://www.cato.org/raidmap/
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My post from the Jef Fowler thread ... The late Jef Fowler, my mentor/neighbor when I was a kid still owns the LV100 World Record .1500". 6mmBR 
I grew up 400 yards or so down the road from Jef Fowler. As a kid, I first met Jef when he came over to see how I was bouncing 22 bullets off my pond into his yard. 
I pulled targets at a couple of Super Shoots for him in the early 70s. Anyhow, gives some insight into my obsession for obsession. 
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I have been asked to point out that I am LaRue Tactical's owner.
My work has been used by tens of thousands of US Military personnel,
and tens of thousands of civilian shooters - ML
My work has been used by tens of thousands of US Military personnel,
and tens of thousands of civilian shooters - ML
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Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical:
^ ^^^ ^ But that doesn't address why you yourself see factory ammo slinging 20% of the rounds a half inch out when handloading the same bullets doesn't. In my opinion, this has to do with barrel harmonics - the vibration of the barrel is not 2 dimensional, but 3 dimensional as the shockwave goes down the steel tube. If you find a load that has an impulse that vibrates at a null when the bullet leaves the barrel (not a peak or trough of the harmonic shock wave) consistently, you have an accurate load. The load that throws out was not at the null because the consistency for that tube was not right. To load for accuracy, I do a round robin that I learned here on the Internetz that distributes the heat over the course of multiple loads. For example if I have 5 loads that I am testing that are .3 grains apart from each other, I shoot one shot from each load in sequence instead of the first load all at once, then the second all at once, then the third all at once, etc. This distributes the heat over all the groups and will typically show an expansion and contraction in the groups amongst the tiered loads. The accuracy node is usually where that harmonic point is a the null when the bullet leaves the barrel. FYI, I have tried numerous match loads and handloads, and in .308 FGMM 168 is the most consistent load I have found across multiple rifles. Yes, some do shoot other loads better, but FGMM is doing it right and my tailored handloads typically don't exceed the accuracy of FGMM by much. Another factor to consider is how precise your reticle is relative to how accurate your rifle is. If you have a true half MOA capable rifle/load combo, but your scope reticle covers 3/4 MOA of the target (as many mil-dot scopes do this), you are leaving some accuracy on the table. |
Help me find out just how accurate "accurate" can be ... (Page 3 of 3)
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