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Help me find out just how accurate "accurate" can be ... (Page 2 of 3)
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Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical:
Whatever. Fact is I don't care what data I get, I will sort through the cluttter (and so will everybody else not shooting their mouth off here) and get what I (they) need ... the fact the data is so sparse shows me a lot in and of itself and that's that damn little evidence of the topic is published. And mods, you see why I rarely darken the doors of this particular pit. Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical:
Originally Posted By RUTGERS95:
Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical:
Originally Posted By TaylorWSO:
Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical:
Thanks, just trying to find where the accuracy bar is truly set ... and yes, so I can attempt to get near as possible to it with stuff I make Speaking of Fanboy ... "Oh, oh, Mark, Mark, only Snipershide knows what's what."  You look like an ass here. What he said is spot on. You won't have unbiased data and the fact you even ask what the bar is is kinda suspect. I find it hard to believe you have no idea what that is but I do commend you on the cheap marketing ploy Whatever. Fact is I don't care what data I get, I will sort through the cluttter (and so will everybody else not shooting their mouth off here) and get what I (they) need ... the fact the data is so sparse shows me a lot in and of itself and that's that damn little evidence of the topic is published. And mods, you see why I rarely darken the doors of this particular pit. hold on a second, you start this $hitshow by attacking a member and cry to the mods for some defense? Your view is wrong on the data. The problem is as was described earlier in this thread where people take a cold barrel, fire 3 shots and proclaim the rifles' accuracy. They also post the best one of the bunch. It's the data sets you will get which is why the way you are going about this is all wrong......again, said earlier |
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Originally Posted By RUTGERS95:
hold on a second, you start this $hitshow by attacking a member and cry to the mods for some defense? Your view is wrong on the data. The problem is as was described earlier in this thread where people take a cold barrel, fire 3 shots and proclaim the rifles' accuracy. They also post the best one of the bunch. It's the data sets you will get which is why the way you are going about this is all wrong......again, said earlier
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God Bless Our Troops ... Especially Our Snipers.
Makers of all things LaRue - the Stealth Uppers, the OBR in 5.56 and 7.62, the PredatAR in both 5.56 and 7.62, the best QD mounts known to mankind ... and so on.
Makers of all things LaRue - the Stealth Uppers, the OBR in 5.56 and 7.62, the PredatAR in both 5.56 and 7.62, the best QD mounts known to mankind ... and so on.
Mark, you may find this post helpful. 
Being Honest About a Rifle's Accuracy and a Shooter's Ability |
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My experience with FGGM out of precision guns tend to be 1 MOA plus or minus for the type of test you are describing. The group I shot with that dpms in the "1 MOA all day thread" was with Handloading and equal to less than MOA, which I find to be about par for the course. That is why I prefer handloads to take away all of the variables I can. |
1 MOA All Day member.
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Originally Posted By Old_Painless:
Mark, you may find this post helpful.
Being Honest About a Rifle's Accuracy and a Shooter's Ability Yep, he gets it.
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God Bless Our Troops ... Especially Our Snipers.
Makers of all things LaRue - the Stealth Uppers, the OBR in 5.56 and 7.62, the PredatAR in both 5.56 and 7.62, the best QD mounts known to mankind ... and so on.
Makers of all things LaRue - the Stealth Uppers, the OBR in 5.56 and 7.62, the PredatAR in both 5.56 and 7.62, the best QD mounts known to mankind ... and so on.
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Originally Posted By RUTGERS95: I agree which is why I say 5-5shot groups at the end of the session. Your barrel won't be cool, any heat induced opening will be present and on your last 2 groups, you should have the measure of what the barrel will MOST LIKELY do with that ammo. Originally Posted By RUTGERS95: Originally Posted By pavlovwolf: My thoughts, right or wrong, is that with the degree of precision of any of the top level rifles, and some cheaper ones as well, you ideally need to use not only the same ammo, but also shoot the various rifles on the same day, at the same location, under the same conditions, and, using the same firing cadence and with the same shooter. Also, a 5 shot group isn't going to cut it, you need 10 shots, and you need 10 groups of them to have any statistical merit. The last thing, is that these rifles will be so close, that it will probably be a wash at 100 yards. This should be done at 300 yards at best, and 200 yards only if you have to. At those ranges the differences will be more pronounced, but then wind will also affect the groups, so that is why I also said same day, same location. Everything needs to be as controlled as possible, with the only variation being the rifle. My .02¢, or well, maybe in this case , my .25¢. I agree which is why I say 5-5shot groups at the end of the session. Your barrel won't be cool, any heat induced opening will be present and on your last 2 groups, you should have the measure of what the barrel will MOST LIKELY do with that ammo. I also agree with the 5, 5-shot groups. More than 5 rounds in a single group makes the statistical analysis math a little harder. Here is a good primer site on precision and accuracy: http://www.the-long-family.com/group_size_analysis.htm Every precision shooter should read this as a starting point to seeing how their precision rifle is doing. I do agree that shooting 5, 5-shot groups, adding the total and dividing by 5 for an average is valid and would actually be just a tad conservative on what a much larger grouping would show. As far as shooting at ranges longer than 100 yds, that puts too many new variables into the evaluation. Im lucky to have a 100 to 300 yd benchrest range. In shooting both 100 and 300 on the same day with same loads and rifle, I have seen consistently that while the group size is larger at 300 yds than 100 yds, it is not always 3 times as large. Sometimes the actual MOA is smaller at 300 than at 100 yds. Since most people cant shoot 300 yds anyway, I think we should stick with 100 yds as a standard, with the understanding that the longer distance performance may be better, worse or equal. You would have to shoot longer range tests independantly. I do understand your point that group sizes can be so small at 100 yds that it is difficult to separate shooter and equipment inconsistentcy from ammo precision. |
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Originally Posted By Skg_Mre_Lght:
My experience with FGGM out of precision guns tend to be 1 MOA plus or minus for the type of test you are describing. The group I shot with that dpms in the "1 MOA all day thread" was with Handloading and equal to less than MOA, which I find to be about par for the course. That is why I prefer handloads to take away all of the variables I can. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1518887__The_New_ARFCOM_1_MOA_ALL_DAY_LONG__Challenge__Post_all_new_entries_here.html |
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Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical: Okay, before nit-picking the livin' sh*t out of this - I want to know what rifles "shot by humans" can do with Federal Gold Medal Match ... or any factory match ammo for that matter. I don't give a rat's rear how you shoot it, as long as it is you shooting it. Shot off hand, shoot from sitting, shoot off a bench, bipod, bag in the back ... whatever. Like the guy in the other thread said - not trying to write a white paper for the Small Arms Symposium, just trying to see what the best in grouping looks like. Although Federal GMM 168 is the gold standard of factory match ammo, there are some rifles which just dont like it at all, I have one that shoots it at 1.2 MOA while other match ammo shoots in that rifle at 0.75 MOA. I have another rifle that does like Fed GMM 168. The point being, I just dont see any way to generalize which factory match ammos are the best. The only way to get real info would be from scientific method; measuring velocity consistency, and observed groups with as little shooter induced error as possible. If you dont give a rats rear how the ammo is shot, you are into evaluating equipment rather than ammo. Shooting a (accurate) light rifle offhand or sitting will likely yield better results than using a 25lb heavy match rifle in the same positions. |
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Just trying to figure out how accurate a variety of rifles, rifles considered by their owners as "accurate" ... how these rifles, whatever they are make, model, type, can shoot FGMM, or any good branded match ammo.
It will give me a good handle as to when I can quit crawling around with a magnifying glass in hand, looking a lot like Sherlock Holmes, belly-crawling across the rifling grooves, grapple-hooking my way up over the lands. I've pulled my shoulder out and twisted my ankle. 
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God Bless Our Troops ... Especially Our Snipers.
Makers of all things LaRue - the Stealth Uppers, the OBR in 5.56 and 7.62, the PredatAR in both 5.56 and 7.62, the best QD mounts known to mankind ... and so on.
Makers of all things LaRue - the Stealth Uppers, the OBR in 5.56 and 7.62, the PredatAR in both 5.56 and 7.62, the best QD mounts known to mankind ... and so on.
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HOLY CRAP, things blew up while I was away... Little behind the times, but in refferacne to my earlier post.
Accuracy is hitting what you want, precision is how close your holes are !!!even if you miss!!! Explained An accurate rifle will hit center mass(could be a 5 inch 5 shot group at 100) while a precise rifle would put a sub 1 inch group the target high and to the right by 12 inches. A mosin nagant is an imprecise but accurate rifle, it will hit your target(SOMEWHERE in the chestish area). A larue OBR with badly adjusted sights is very precise, but inaccurate (hits same spot, just not bullseye, say 5 rounds into the right shoulder, simply adjust the sights/optic and you have a MUCH better rifle)  .
Same principal holds true for ammo, or sights/optics(super thin front sights, smaller rear sights decrease potential spread,finer cross hairs, more magnification, ect). This is a pet peeve of mine due to my lab background. 
For the record I have ONCE shot 3 rounds of handloaded .30-06 from my bolt gun and had them all coverable by a quarter(I was afraid to shoot 2 more and screw it up  ), and it was dead center of the bullseye. BUT I HAVE FUN TRYING!!!
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^ ^^^ ^
Thanks and good examples. Guys that are going to shoot for this thread, don't worry about having it sighted in, and don't move the turrets whilst you be shootin'. ETA -- I had a guy give me a pro-tidbit ... he intentionally sticks his groups way out in space on a clear sheet of paper - says it keeps him from subconsciously "helping" the rifle shoot better. Let's not go that far, a grid is a big help. |
God Bless Our Troops ... Especially Our Snipers.
Makers of all things LaRue - the Stealth Uppers, the OBR in 5.56 and 7.62, the PredatAR in both 5.56 and 7.62, the best QD mounts known to mankind ... and so on.
Makers of all things LaRue - the Stealth Uppers, the OBR in 5.56 and 7.62, the PredatAR in both 5.56 and 7.62, the best QD mounts known to mankind ... and so on.
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Here's an example I just posted in the other thread ...
Note the .65" group is the first ... but lo, we shan't call it a .65 moa rifle. ML Okay, I went to the barrel shop and grabbed a target ... this is a 16" LaRue-made barrel in a PredatOBR, shooting 175 gr. FGMM at 100 yards out back in the Worm Hole. ETA - If we knock out the worst group and average the other seven 5-shot groups = .901" Not bad, and there's a .65" and a .69" in there. 
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God Bless Our Troops ... Especially Our Snipers.
Makers of all things LaRue - the Stealth Uppers, the OBR in 5.56 and 7.62, the PredatAR in both 5.56 and 7.62, the best QD mounts known to mankind ... and so on.
Makers of all things LaRue - the Stealth Uppers, the OBR in 5.56 and 7.62, the PredatAR in both 5.56 and 7.62, the best QD mounts known to mankind ... and so on.
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So that .9 moa PredatOBR is shooting .25 moa bigger than the 25 lb. sled gun ...
If the zero was dead nuts in the dead middle, out at 1,000 yards, on average, that would mean the tOBR could hit (in a perfect world) on a 4.5" radius = 1.25" wider or higher or lower than the 25 lb. rifle. Yeah, yeah, note the "perfect world" caveat in parentheses. ETA - if my beer math is right. 
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God Bless Our Troops ... Especially Our Snipers.
Makers of all things LaRue - the Stealth Uppers, the OBR in 5.56 and 7.62, the PredatAR in both 5.56 and 7.62, the best QD mounts known to mankind ... and so on.
Makers of all things LaRue - the Stealth Uppers, the OBR in 5.56 and 7.62, the PredatAR in both 5.56 and 7.62, the best QD mounts known to mankind ... and so on.
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Originally Posted By bjwar10: What range? Originally Posted By bjwar10: Originally Posted By 3O8junkie: Im by no means a sniper but heres a target from a couple years ago. Center is 168gr FGMM top center is 175gr FGMM the rest are random of either 168 or 175gr FGMM 5 shot groups. Center bottom was a 10 shot group ETA. This was through a Noveske N6 with a 40$ 3-9 Wal mart scope. <a href="http://s187.photobucket.com/user/Smokeyjojackson/media/IMG_0165.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x119/Smokeyjojackson/IMG_0165.jpg</a> What range? |
| Mark, I think it would be helpful/interesting to know what you currently do as a measure of accuracy. |
Please, call me Joe
There is definitely something perverse about two men who carry guns 24/7 being so happy that others are giving theirs up. -happycynic
Jack Ryan 2016
There is definitely something perverse about two men who carry guns 24/7 being so happy that others are giving theirs up. -happycynic
Jack Ryan 2016
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I have achieved my best groupings by using the cross hairs in the scope to line up on the corner of a box on the grid. I don't shoot for the center of the target ever. Get the cross hairs lined up top to bottom on the corner of a box, and side to side on the same corner of the same box, pull trigger. It has netted me much better results doing it this way.
I have an M1A that would work great for this thread, but it currently isn't wearing any optics. Let me dig around in the parts bin, and see if I can find the old mount, I am interested in this now also. |
I cut it twice, and it's still short.
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Originally Posted By TCBA_Joe:
Mark, I think it would be helpful/interesting to know what you currently do as a measure of accuracy. 
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God Bless Our Troops ... Especially Our Snipers.
Makers of all things LaRue - the Stealth Uppers, the OBR in 5.56 and 7.62, the PredatAR in both 5.56 and 7.62, the best QD mounts known to mankind ... and so on.
Makers of all things LaRue - the Stealth Uppers, the OBR in 5.56 and 7.62, the PredatAR in both 5.56 and 7.62, the best QD mounts known to mankind ... and so on.
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Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical:
Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical:
Originally Posted By TCBA_Joe:
Mark, I think it would be helpful/interesting to know what you currently do as a measure of accuracy. I think they want to know exact process after selecting a test candidate. Shots fired, time between shots, total shots on rifle, break in rounds on said test gun... Thats my guess. |
I cut it twice, and it's still short.
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Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical:
Here's an example I just posted in the other thread ... Note the .65" group is the first ... but lo, we shan't call it a .65 moa rifle. ML Okay, I went to the barrel shop and grabbed a target ... this is a 16" LaRue-made barrel in a PredatOBR, shooting 175 gr. FGMM at 100 yards out back in the Worm Hole. ETA - If we knock out the worst group and average the other seven 5-shot groups = .901" Not bad, and there's a .65" and a .69" in there. http://i1300.photobucket.com/albums/ag88/MarkLaRue/d67eb6ee-4086-41a5-bd12-e2f20ccda655_zps68f97070.jpg that's very good I'd now use 168 fed gold match and one other load in that same barrel. I'd also replicate it with 3 other barrels chose at random with the same parameters. nice shooting |
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Originally Posted By RUTGERS95:
that's very good I'd now use 168 fed gold match and one other load in that same barrel. I'd also replicate it with 3 other barrels chose at random with the same parameters. nice shooting Originally Posted By RUTGERS95:
Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical:
Here's an example I just posted in the other thread ... Note the .65" group is the first ... but lo, we shan't call it a .65 moa rifle. ML Okay, I went to the barrel shop and grabbed a target ... this is a 16" LaRue-made barrel in a PredatOBR, shooting 175 gr. FGMM at 100 yards out back in the Worm Hole. ETA - If we knock out the worst group and average the other seven 5-shot groups = .901" Not bad, and there's a .65" and a .69" in there. http://i1300.photobucket.com/albums/ag88/MarkLaRue/d67eb6ee-4086-41a5-bd12-e2f20ccda655_zps68f97070.jpg that's very good I'd now use 168 fed gold match and one other load in that same barrel. I'd also replicate it with 3 other barrels chose at random with the same parameters. nice shooting We're in a state of production, so we gotta leave the tweakin' to the new owner ... he can tailor a load, find the bullet the barrel loves best, measure every charge, and spin the loaded if he's got the stuff for it. |
God Bless Our Troops ... Especially Our Snipers.
Makers of all things LaRue - the Stealth Uppers, the OBR in 5.56 and 7.62, the PredatAR in both 5.56 and 7.62, the best QD mounts known to mankind ... and so on.
Makers of all things LaRue - the Stealth Uppers, the OBR in 5.56 and 7.62, the PredatAR in both 5.56 and 7.62, the best QD mounts known to mankind ... and so on.
| There will always be variables. Change in weather, temperature, human error, etc. And not all rifles like the same ammo, some shoot FGGm or m118lr like crap, etc etc. You'll never get an all around "perfect" round manufactured. It just won't happen. That's why I reload, so I can find what works for MY rifles and what works for ME, not everyone else. |
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What i learned in this thread: Non conformists who like to bash companies who have made it big every chance they get no matter the topic at hand. This thread could have been a simple question and answer like a typical tech discussion thread but no. Idk about you guys but if i dont like a company or a person in general, i dont talk to them. Then again, peoples internet balls are bigger than their real ones.
That being said i have nothing to contribute to this tech discussion, so if mods wanna delete this then ok. Enjoy your pissing matches. Maybe one day i'll click on a tech thread and actually read something informative without bitching a moaning between grown men, and maybe one day buy a Larue Rifle. I think the latter would come first though. |
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Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical:
We're in a state of production, so we gotta leave the tweakin' to the new owner ... he can tailor a load, find the bullet the barrel loves best, measure every charge, and spin the loaded if he's got the stuff for it. Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical:
Originally Posted By RUTGERS95:
Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical:
Here's an example I just posted in the other thread ... Note the .65" group is the first ... but lo, we shan't call it a .65 moa rifle. ML Okay, I went to the barrel shop and grabbed a target ... this is a 16" LaRue-made barrel in a PredatOBR, shooting 175 gr. FGMM at 100 yards out back in the Worm Hole. ETA - If we knock out the worst group and average the other seven 5-shot groups = .901" Not bad, and there's a .65" and a .69" in there. http://i1300.photobucket.com/albums/ag88/MarkLaRue/d67eb6ee-4086-41a5-bd12-e2f20ccda655_zps68f97070.jpg that's very good I'd now use 168 fed gold match and one other load in that same barrel. I'd also replicate it with 3 other barrels chose at random with the same parameters. nice shooting We're in a state of production, so we gotta leave the tweakin' to the new owner ... he can tailor a load, find the bullet the barrel loves best, measure every charge, and spin the loaded if he's got the stuff for it. no doubt but if you are looking for a picture of accuracy, you need to do that with a few barrels with the varying loads mentioned. That will give you a nice picture of where you are really starting out at.. Worst part about of this is picking up the brass.. 
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175gr FGMM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8NefmCyvy8 168gr FGMM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikSpFe1Ropk ontarget images at the end.
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Originally Posted By RUTGERS95:
no doubt but if you are looking for a picture of accuracy, you need to do that with a few barrels with the varying loads mentioned. That will give you a nice picture of where you are really starting out at.. Worst part about of this is picking up the brass.. Originally Posted By RUTGERS95:
Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical:
Originally Posted By RUTGERS95:
Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical:
Here's an example I just posted in the other thread ... Note the .65" group is the first ... but lo, we shan't call it a .65 moa rifle. ML Okay, I went to the barrel shop and grabbed a target ... this is a 16" LaRue-made barrel in a PredatOBR, shooting 175 gr. FGMM at 100 yards out back in the Worm Hole. ETA - If we knock out the worst group and average the other seven 5-shot groups = .901" Not bad, and there's a .65" and a .69" in there. http://i1300.photobucket.com/albums/ag88/MarkLaRue/d67eb6ee-4086-41a5-bd12-e2f20ccda655_zps68f97070.jpg that's very good I'd now use 168 fed gold match and one other load in that same barrel. I'd also replicate it with 3 other barrels chose at random with the same parameters. nice shooting We're in a state of production, so we gotta leave the tweakin' to the new owner ... he can tailor a load, find the bullet the barrel loves best, measure every charge, and spin the loaded if he's got the stuff for it. no doubt but if you are looking for a picture of accuracy, you need to do that with a few barrels with the varying loads mentioned. That will give you a nice picture of where you are really starting out at.. Worst part about of this is picking up the brass.. I am most interested in seeing a variety, a virtual plethora of known-to-be-accurate rifles shot by their owners for eight 5-shot groups using factory match ammo. Not handloads. Federal GMM is what we use here ... but I'm open to any match 308 ammo. Just want to see what rifles that guys consider accurate will do. Just let me know if it's a bolt gun or gas gun and what ammo used. Thanks, ML |
God Bless Our Troops ... Especially Our Snipers.
Makers of all things LaRue - the Stealth Uppers, the OBR in 5.56 and 7.62, the PredatAR in both 5.56 and 7.62, the best QD mounts known to mankind ... and so on.
Makers of all things LaRue - the Stealth Uppers, the OBR in 5.56 and 7.62, the PredatAR in both 5.56 and 7.62, the best QD mounts known to mankind ... and so on.
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If anyone is making silly comments here and hasn't shot the moa all day challenge I wouldn't even bother with them.
This is the internet. Everyone has super model girlfriends and no ones truck ever breaks down. I think lots of folks on here actually believe the crap they have built up in their own minds. There have been smart folks around for ages like molon and old painless and other nameless people no one even thinks about who have known and even said over and over if it isn't repeatable it isn't real. I still see lots of folks talking about great groups with 3 rounds that were cherry picked...Its just not real. Mark your guns seem to be on point. I don't have a gas gun that shoots 308. I would love to have one but for now my bolt guns and ar15s will have to do. I don't know what you want to compare them up against. I think you have put out some amazing stuff and it is a hard choice between your guns and a GAP 10. I don't really understand why you need to find the answer to this question. Just tell what your guns can do with what ammo factory. Some companies like GAP show with another company that loads for them like copper creak or something. If you wanted to show factory ammo and how nicely it shoots then show what another 25 rounds or something from a load that likes the gun a while lot and shoots much better. You would just be able to show the range. That multipurpose rounds that are one sized fits all works good in the gun and rounds specifically tailored to the gun can shoot even better. I think this would be helpful because most follks who want to shoot at that level of accuracy and precision are going to end up either finding a round that shoots well in that gun or start loading the rounds that shoot well themselves. I would say folks like to bitch about anything. All you have to do is put out the facts about what your gun does. Don't exaggerate don't puff out your chest and push it all over the forums just say what it can do and be sure it can always be backed up. |
If you are gonna be stupid you had better be tough.
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Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical:
I am most interested in seeing a variety, a virtual plethora of known-to-be-accurate rifles shot by their owners for eight 5-shot groups using factory match ammo. Not handloads. Federal GMM is what we use here ... but I'm open to any match 308 ammo. Just want to see what rifles that guys consider accurate will do. Just let me know if it's a bolt gun or gas gun and what ammo used. Thanks, ML Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical:
Originally Posted By RUTGERS95:
Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical:
Originally Posted By RUTGERS95:
Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical:
Here's an example I just posted in the other thread ... Note the .65" group is the first ... but lo, we shan't call it a .65 moa rifle. ML Okay, I went to the barrel shop and grabbed a target ... this is a 16" LaRue-made barrel in a PredatOBR, shooting 175 gr. FGMM at 100 yards out back in the Worm Hole. ETA - If we knock out the worst group and average the other seven 5-shot groups = .901" Not bad, and there's a .65" and a .69" in there. http://i1300.photobucket.com/albums/ag88/MarkLaRue/d67eb6ee-4086-41a5-bd12-e2f20ccda655_zps68f97070.jpg that's very good I'd now use 168 fed gold match and one other load in that same barrel. I'd also replicate it with 3 other barrels chose at random with the same parameters. nice shooting We're in a state of production, so we gotta leave the tweakin' to the new owner ... he can tailor a load, find the bullet the barrel loves best, measure every charge, and spin the loaded if he's got the stuff for it. no doubt but if you are looking for a picture of accuracy, you need to do that with a few barrels with the varying loads mentioned. That will give you a nice picture of where you are really starting out at.. Worst part about of this is picking up the brass.. I am most interested in seeing a variety, a virtual plethora of known-to-be-accurate rifles shot by their owners for eight 5-shot groups using factory match ammo. Not handloads. Federal GMM is what we use here ... but I'm open to any match 308 ammo. Just want to see what rifles that guys consider accurate will do. Just let me know if it's a bolt gun or gas gun and what ammo used. Thanks, ML Mark I am also curious why you decided to go with 8 5 shot groups over the 5 we were doing over the moa challenge? I know I am not going to lay down with my bolt gun and shoot 40 rounds to prove accuracy. 25 was actually a bit of a stretch. The difference between the first five 5 shot groups and the over all 8 was nothing. It was like .944 for 5 groups and .945 for 8. You are just as likely to have a shooter begin rushing shots or throwing away concentration or fundamentals at that longer string. I figured the idea you were going for was to show what the rifle was capable of in terms of accuracy not what it was capable with the right shooter over an endurance shoot. |
If you are gonna be stupid you had better be tough.
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Nick,
Take a look at my target we use ... there's eight spots to shoot at. Nothing planned, we just shoot eight groups a bunch and want the same to compare to. ML |
God Bless Our Troops ... Especially Our Snipers.
Makers of all things LaRue - the Stealth Uppers, the OBR in 5.56 and 7.62, the PredatAR in both 5.56 and 7.62, the best QD mounts known to mankind ... and so on.
Makers of all things LaRue - the Stealth Uppers, the OBR in 5.56 and 7.62, the PredatAR in both 5.56 and 7.62, the best QD mounts known to mankind ... and so on.
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consistency = accuracy. any "precision shooter" knows that. If you have a consistent shooting load/ rifle you are shooting precision. I don’t know why people don’t get that.
On a side note, I do happen to like Larue's line of products, I just don’t like their price points. Maybe if they weren’t so damn prow of their stuff more people would buy it and try it out and report back. |
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Originally Posted By OutlawZ06:
consistency = accuracy. any "precision shooter" knows that. If you have a consistent shooting load/ rifle you are shooting precision. I don’t know why people don’t get that. On a side note, I do happen to like Larue's line of products, I just don’t like their price points. Maybe if they weren’t so damn prow of their stuff more people would buy it and try it out and report back. Can you point out another company that puts out a product at the same level of quality at a price point that is substantially lower? I am not some super fan of the larue line I honestly only have a few mounts and a hand stop pack from larue but I am having a hard time thinking of an alternative that would be comparable. I mentioned the GA precision line but Im afraid they too are elitist price gouging jerks. |
If you are gonna be stupid you had better be tough.
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Originally Posted By nickforney:
Can you point out another company that puts out a product at the same level of quality at a price point that is substantially lower? I am not some super fan of the larue line I honestly only have a few mounts and a hand stop pack from larue but I am having a hard time thinking of an alternative that would be comparable. I mentioned the GA precision line but Im afraid they too are elitist price gouging jerks. Originally Posted By nickforney:
Originally Posted By OutlawZ06:
consistency = accuracy. any "precision shooter" knows that. If you have a consistent shooting load/ rifle you are shooting precision. I don’t know why people don’t get that. On a side note, I do happen to like Larue's line of products, I just don’t like their price points. Maybe if they weren’t so damn prow of their stuff more people would buy it and try it out and report back. Can you point out another company that puts out a product at the same level of quality at a price point that is substantially lower? I am not some super fan of the larue line I honestly only have a few mounts and a hand stop pack from larue but I am having a hard time thinking of an alternative that would be comparable. I mentioned the GA precision line but Im afraid they too are elitist price gouging jerks. You can compare the splash made by our competition's stuff when it hits the pond out back to the splash our stuff makes when thrown in the same end of the pond .... but alas, that's where the similarity ends. We ain't price gouging ... we charge what the market will bear and hope we have more money at year's end than we started with. ML |
God Bless Our Troops ... Especially Our Snipers.
Makers of all things LaRue - the Stealth Uppers, the OBR in 5.56 and 7.62, the PredatAR in both 5.56 and 7.62, the best QD mounts known to mankind ... and so on.
Makers of all things LaRue - the Stealth Uppers, the OBR in 5.56 and 7.62, the PredatAR in both 5.56 and 7.62, the best QD mounts known to mankind ... and so on.
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Originally Posted By nickforney:
Can you point out another company that puts out a product at the same level of quality at a price point that is substantially lower? I am not some super fan of the larue line I honestly only have a few mounts and a hand stop pack from larue but I am having a hard time thinking of an alternative that would be comparable. I mentioned the GA precision line but Im afraid they too are elitist price gouging jerks. Originally Posted By nickforney:
Originally Posted By OutlawZ06:
consistency = accuracy. any "precision shooter" knows that. If you have a consistent shooting load/ rifle you are shooting precision. I don’t know why people don’t get that. On a side note, I do happen to like Larue's line of products, I just don’t like their price points. Maybe if they weren’t so damn prow of their stuff more people would buy it and try it out and report back. Can you point out another company that puts out a product at the same level of quality at a price point that is substantially lower? I am not some super fan of the larue line I honestly only have a few mounts and a hand stop pack from larue but I am having a hard time thinking of an alternative that would be comparable. I mentioned the GA precision line but Im afraid they too are elitist price gouging jerks. you do have a point, and while I am not going to compile a list, because I dont realy have any data atm, I can say that their are others that have top of the line quality that seam to have more distributers than Larue. That being said, when there are more distrubuters you get a chance on clearance items, site wide sales, bla bla. Also It would help if Larue would offer more of their product line. I could go for a lower, a BCG and a barrel from them, but alas, I havnt been able to find them on their site. One can only be patient. |
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Originally Posted By nickforney:
That was sarcasm. I often times forget Im on the internet. LOL, my son was just saying that I missed some of his obvious nuances ... son 1 - dad 0.
ETA - Back to shooting ... for anonymity, post it with "My friend sent this to me 'cause he doesn't know how to post pics ..."
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God Bless Our Troops ... Especially Our Snipers.
Makers of all things LaRue - the Stealth Uppers, the OBR in 5.56 and 7.62, the PredatAR in both 5.56 and 7.62, the best QD mounts known to mankind ... and so on.
Makers of all things LaRue - the Stealth Uppers, the OBR in 5.56 and 7.62, the PredatAR in both 5.56 and 7.62, the best QD mounts known to mankind ... and so on.
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Originally Posted By ZEROTHOMAS:
What i learned in this thread: Non conformists who like to bash companies who have made it big every chance they get no matter the topic at hand. This thread could have been a simple question and answer like a typical tech discussion thread but no. Idk about you guys but if i dont like a company or a person in general, i dont talk to them. Then again, peoples internet balls are bigger than their real ones. That being said i have nothing to contribute to this tech discussion, so if mods wanna delete this then ok. Enjoy your pissing matches. Maybe one day i'll click on a tech thread and actually read something informative without bitching a moaning between grown men, and maybe one day buy a Larue Rifle. I think the latter would come first though. This thread was a simple question and answer ... And to get the information I need to help push our product improvement envelope, it's worth the risk and slight hassle of having to slap a few interweb dumbsh*ts around. 
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God Bless Our Troops ... Especially Our Snipers.
Makers of all things LaRue - the Stealth Uppers, the OBR in 5.56 and 7.62, the PredatAR in both 5.56 and 7.62, the best QD mounts known to mankind ... and so on.
Makers of all things LaRue - the Stealth Uppers, the OBR in 5.56 and 7.62, the PredatAR in both 5.56 and 7.62, the best QD mounts known to mankind ... and so on.
| Working on getting glass on my M1A, and I will shoot it for ya... It should be a good test, as I have never shot this gun. It would be the same as me picking up an OBR for the first time, and seeing what I can do. I have known through much internet legend, and gun show hype that the M1A is considered an accurate auto loader. |
I cut it twice, and it's still short.
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Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical: Here's an example I just posted in the other thread ... Note the .65" group is the first ... but lo, we shan't call it a .65 moa rifle. ML Okay, I went to the barrel shop and grabbed a target ... this is a 16" LaRue-made barrel in a PredatOBR, shooting 175 gr. FGMM at 100 yards out back in the Worm Hole. ETA - If we knock out the worst group and average the other seven 5-shot groups = .901" Not bad, and there's a .65" and a .69" in there. http://i1300.photobucket.com/albums/ag88/MarkLaRue/d67eb6ee-4086-41a5-bd12-e2f20ccda655_zps68f97070.jpg Did you take your time on these or go somewhat fast?
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Originally Posted By jukeboxx13:
Nice shooting. Did you take your time on these or go somewhat fast? Originally Posted By jukeboxx13:
Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical:
Here's an example I just posted in the other thread ... Note the .65" group is the first ... but lo, we shan't call it a .65 moa rifle. ML Okay, I went to the barrel shop and grabbed a target ... this is a 16" LaRue-made barrel in a PredatOBR, shooting 175 gr. FGMM at 100 yards out back in the Worm Hole. ETA - If we knock out the worst group and average the other seven 5-shot groups = .901" Not bad, and there's a .65" and a .69" in there. http://i1300.photobucket.com/albums/ag88/MarkLaRue/d67eb6ee-4086-41a5-bd12-e2f20ccda655_zps68f97070.jpg Did you take your time on these or go somewhat fast? Somewhat fast ... |
God Bless Our Troops ... Especially Our Snipers.
Makers of all things LaRue - the Stealth Uppers, the OBR in 5.56 and 7.62, the PredatAR in both 5.56 and 7.62, the best QD mounts known to mankind ... and so on.
Makers of all things LaRue - the Stealth Uppers, the OBR in 5.56 and 7.62, the PredatAR in both 5.56 and 7.62, the best QD mounts known to mankind ... and so on.
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Originally Posted By ZEROTHOMAS: What i learned in this thread: Non conformists who like to bash companies who have made it big every chance they get no matter the topic at hand. This thread could have been a simple question and answer like a typical tech discussion thread but no. Idk about you guys but if i dont like a company or a person in general, i dont talk to them. Then again, peoples internet balls are bigger than their real ones. That being said i have nothing to contribute to this tech discussion, so if mods wanna delete this then ok. Enjoy your pissing matches. Maybe one day i'll click on a tech thread and actually read something informative without bitching a moaning between grown men, and maybe one day buy a Larue Rifle. I think the latter would come first though. Don't you? |
The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil,
but because of the people who don't do anything about it.
Rise And Rise Again Until Lambs Become Lions.
but because of the people who don't do anything about it.
Rise And Rise Again Until Lambs Become Lions.
Standing by for steady influx of targets with bullets piled atop one another.
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God Bless Our Troops ... Especially Our Snipers.
Makers of all things LaRue - the Stealth Uppers, the OBR in 5.56 and 7.62, the PredatAR in both 5.56 and 7.62, the best QD mounts known to mankind ... and so on.
Makers of all things LaRue - the Stealth Uppers, the OBR in 5.56 and 7.62, the PredatAR in both 5.56 and 7.62, the best QD mounts known to mankind ... and so on.
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Originally Posted By akethan:
LOL <a href="http://smg.photobucket.com/user/akethan/media/MOAchallenge_zps01509b16.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v625/akethan/MOAchallenge_zps01509b16.jpg</a> Originally Posted By akethan:
Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical:
Standing by for steady influx of targets with bullets piled atop one another. LOL <a href="http://smg.photobucket.com/user/akethan/media/MOAchallenge_zps01509b16.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v625/akethan/MOAchallenge_zps01509b16.jpg</a> I just put up a " five-barrel " fresh post. 
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God Bless Our Troops ... Especially Our Snipers.
Makers of all things LaRue - the Stealth Uppers, the OBR in 5.56 and 7.62, the PredatAR in both 5.56 and 7.62, the best QD mounts known to mankind ... and so on.
Makers of all things LaRue - the Stealth Uppers, the OBR in 5.56 and 7.62, the PredatAR in both 5.56 and 7.62, the best QD mounts known to mankind ... and so on.
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Standing by for the sniping wizards from ...
Uh, n/m.
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God Bless Our Troops ... Especially Our Snipers.
Makers of all things LaRue - the Stealth Uppers, the OBR in 5.56 and 7.62, the PredatAR in both 5.56 and 7.62, the best QD mounts known to mankind ... and so on.
Makers of all things LaRue - the Stealth Uppers, the OBR in 5.56 and 7.62, the PredatAR in both 5.56 and 7.62, the best QD mounts known to mankind ... and so on.
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Five LaRue-made barrels all shot yesterday.
Cell-phone pic ... four 5-shot groups on top ... four 3-shot groups on the bottom of each. My guy wrote in red the averages of top and bottom ... the "- worst" means dropping the worst group of the four ... I put together a yellow sheet of paper at the bottom disregarding his numbers. There is a math mistake ... the .803" number at the bottom should be .792" = .754 moa.
Barrel # 1 
Barrel # 2 
Barrel # 3 
Barrel # 4 
Barrel # 5 
Aggregate 
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God Bless Our Troops ... Especially Our Snipers.
Makers of all things LaRue - the Stealth Uppers, the OBR in 5.56 and 7.62, the PredatAR in both 5.56 and 7.62, the best QD mounts known to mankind ... and so on.
Makers of all things LaRue - the Stealth Uppers, the OBR in 5.56 and 7.62, the PredatAR in both 5.56 and 7.62, the best QD mounts known to mankind ... and so on.
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Mr. Larue: All the LaRue groups look entirely typical for a gas operated semi-auto and above what the average AR-10 platform gun will do. I think those are all well above average, good shooting guns. I have been shooting the AR platform for about 25 years and have shot match grade ARs at paper, recording the results, for about 3 years. The only other precision 308 gas (piston) gun I currently have is a FN-FNAR. Those groups are better than the FNAR and it is marketed as a precision rifle. The groups you are likely to see on this thread are from the more serious shooters. Those groups are likely to have involved some work and understanding of the guns and should be better than what the typical shooter will do. The shooters who have "tack drivers" and "shoot lights out" (what does that even mean?) dont seem to measure or save their targets. It would be interesting to shoot another factory match grade ammo through all five of your barrels/guns and see how it turns out. Preferably one that your customers can readily purchase. The AB ammo was pretty good, but impossible to purchase. I see those groups were with 175 GMM, thats cool you used a common high end ammo. A different ammo is sure to shoot a little worse or a little better. A little better on those already great groups would be very impressive. |
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Originally Posted By JeffinVAB:
Mr. Larue: All the LaRue groups look entirely typical for a gas operated semi-auto and above what the average AR-10 platform gun will do. I think those are all well above average, good shooting guns. I have been shooting the AR platform for about 25 years and have shot match grade ARs at paper, recording the results, for about 3 years. The only other precision 308 gas (piston) gun I currently have is a FN-FNAR. Those groups are better than the FNAR and it is marketed as a precision rifle. The groups you are likely to see on this thread are from the more serious shooters. Those groups are likely to have involved some work and understanding of the guns and should be better than what the typical shooter will do. The shooters who have "tack drivers" and "shoot lights out" (what does that even mean?) dont seem to measure or save their targets. It would be interesting to shoot another factory match grade ammo through all five of your barrels/guns and see how it turns out. Preferably one that your customers can readily purchase. The AB ammo was pretty good, but impossible to purchase. I see those groups were with 175 GMM, thats cool you used a common high end ammo. A different ammo is sure to shoot a little worse or a little better. A little better on those already great groups would be very impressive. JeffinVAB, Note those were the very first bullets fired through each of those barrels ... you can kinda see them "breaking-in".
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God Bless Our Troops ... Especially Our Snipers.
Makers of all things LaRue - the Stealth Uppers, the OBR in 5.56 and 7.62, the PredatAR in both 5.56 and 7.62, the best QD mounts known to mankind ... and so on.
Makers of all things LaRue - the Stealth Uppers, the OBR in 5.56 and 7.62, the PredatAR in both 5.56 and 7.62, the best QD mounts known to mankind ... and so on.
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This is an interesting thread and it's always informative to see what other shooters are capable of. But I must be pretty obtuse, because I'm not sure what's being measured or what we can conclude from the data. There are too many variables for this information to be really meaningful. If we had one rifle, shot off a bench rest, on same day, in same location, using same ammo, by 20 different shooters, we would be able to reach some conclusions who among us are great bench rest shooters and who are prone to the occasional exaggeration when posting their results.
Similarly, if we took the best shooter of this group, and had him shoot 20 rifles that are supposedly tack drivers, and compared the results for each rifle, we'd have some idea of which rifles are the real tack drivers. (Although even here, you have the variable of some rifles shooting some kinds of ammo better than others. But where you have 20 different shooter, shooting 20 different rifles, with different brands of ammo (some of which may be mil surp. and some of which may be handloads carefully matched to the rifle), in 20 different locations, some of which may be hot, some cold, some windy, etc. you can't draw any conclusions about anything. You get a whole lot of data, but no way to really draw any conclusions from it - except maybe to be able to say that when someone posts that his rifle is a "tack driver" this is what he means. But I'm not sure crunching all this data is the best way to reach even this limited conclusion. However, I do think some of the side discussions about what do we mean by the term tack driver are interesting. Is it a gun that shoots great 3 shot groups, from a cold barrel, where you throw out the occasional flier? Is it a gun that consistently shoots good 5, or 10, or 20 shot groups, with a variety of ammo out of both a stone cold and a blazing hot barrel? Of course, maybe I'm missing the whole point of this thread.
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Quick additional comment. If the point of this thread is whether the results being posted by LaRue Tactical for this particular gun qualify it to be characterized as a tack driver - I vote yes. Any gun that truly can consistently shoot .80 MOA is a tack driver in my book.
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Help me find out just how accurate "accurate" can be ... (Page 2 of 3)
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