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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Not free floating? (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 9/22/2013 12:03:52 AM EDT
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So, I have have been forum surfing for info so long I think I am losing eyesight. But I cannot find anything on the interwebs even suggesting its a good idea to own a non-free floated rifle. I am starting to wonder why they even sell non free floated rifles if it is such a horrible idea.
Can anyone make me feel better about not wanting to free float my barrel? I haven't shot the rifle yet, but I am certain I don't want to do a whole lot to it. and I happen to like the look of the standard guards. Will I ever hit anything? I can't count the amount of posts I have read stating said person was getting 4 moa till they free floated, now they get 1-sub moa, or said person saying if I change shooting positions my POI change 16 inches at 100 yards. I had a mini 14 and this rifle and didn't shoot either because I fell short for work and therefore money. I sold the mini 14, and now I'm wondering if I chose right? because it sounds like new mini at least consistently come in at around 2 moa and to my knowledge the best reason to get the AR over the mini was accuracy, but consistent 2 moa is sounding better than at best 4 moa, and possibly pulling the rifle of a torso at 100 yards. Not to mention I like "slinging up" and I cant find anything regarding that shooting method changing the characteristics of how a mini shoots. so between a "slung" mini, and a "slung" non free float ar, would you be better off with the mini? If anyone can shed some light on the benefits of sticky with the M4 plastic guards, or 2 pieces in general as opposed to free floats that would be great. Because it's kinda making the whole only getting to keep one of my new guns that I haven't even shot situation even sadder feeling like I made the wrong choice. Again, I don't want to free float, and am not asking if I should. Also, I don't need to hear that I shoot just go shoot it. I can't right now, and based on how things sound like they are most likely to go when I do go shoot. I may want to see the thing before I shoot it for the best chances of getting most my cash back. I want an accurate, simple, reliable rifle, for target shooting, varminting, home defense, SHTF, did I screw up? |
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There arent any real benefits staying non free floated.
I guess its cheaper. Woo hoo. But really, there's no mechanical benefit to have non-FF over FF. That said, 1moa is possible with a non-FF barrel - there are more important factors though. The guy who claimed to tighten up groups from 4moa to 1 moa just switching to a FF rail is full of shit, or there's more to his story (shooter error / inconsistency, he used better ammo after the fact etc). |
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If you don't want/need a FF, don't...there's nothing wrong with non-FF handguards/rails: unless you're out bench resting your rifle for groups, you'll never see the difference a FF makes.
The ammo is typically the weak link in the AR, so unless you're shooting match ammo, you won't see much difference no matter what you do. |
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My first build was a military style 5.56 rifle. Because I wanted low cost, I went with GI parts including delta ring and MOE rifle length handguards, see pic below. I soon found out my low cost build, including a $150 Green Mountain barrel, exhibited excellent accuracy, so I switched to a FF handguard. Now it routinely shoots 10 rounds into less than an inch at 100 yds. Had the initial accuracy been mediocre, the rifle would probably still be wearing Magpul MOE handguards, which I really like. - CW
[URL=[URL=http://s1012.photobucket.com/user/chasw44/media/AR15build/2011_0704AR-15build0003.jpg.html]  [/URL
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Quoted:
There arent any real benefits staying non free floated. I guess its cheaper. Woo hoo. But really, there's no mechanical benefit to have non-FF over FF. That said, 1moa is possible with a non-FF barrel - there are more important factors though. The guy who claimed to tighten up groups from 4moa to 1 moa just switching to a FF rail is full of shit, or there's more to his story (shooter error / inconsistency, he used better ammo after the fact etc). Just as, aside from precision shooting/competition (maybe), there's no mechanical benefit with a FF barrel. Ford or Chevy? Chocolate or vanilla? FF or non-FF? It's a choice with no 'bad' logic for either. |
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There arent any real benefits staying non free floated. I guess its cheaper. Woo hoo. But really, there's no mechanical benefit to have non-FF over FF. That said, 1moa is possible with a non-FF barrel - there are more important factors though. The guy who claimed to tighten up groups from 4moa to 1 moa just switching to a FF rail is full of shit, or there's more to his story (shooter error / inconsistency, he used better ammo after the fact etc). Come on, with new shoes kids run faster, so there has to be some merit to it 
evl.... |
| Standard hand guards work just fine. You can get pretty radical POI shifts if you are shooting with a sling, but from 0-300 meters you'd have to tweak the hell out of it to completely miss. I love the mini 14s, they are fun to shoot. But the standard AR will run circles around it. |
| I personally don't own any AR's with stanard handguards and FSB. I'm not against it, I just choose to FF my builds. As long as your rifle goes bang every time, I would have zero issues using it in a combat/SD situation. To gain the full benefits of a FF tube you would likely need a better barrel and match grade ammo. Shoot it and shoot it some more. My guess is you're not getting all of what it is capable of, yet. |
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Millions of GI's have killed millions of bad guys without a free float barrel. If you want to float it go ahead. But depending on the type of shooting you are doing, it may not make a bit of difference. Most guns, floated or not, are more accurate than the human holding them. |
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Millions of GI's have killed millions of bad guys without a free float barrel. If you want to float it go ahead. But depending on the type of shooting you are doing, it may not make a bit of difference. Most guns, floated or not, are more accurate than the human holding them. Boom |
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In my opinion, the only time you'll see a difference in accuracy between floated versus not floated is if you pony up the bucks to get an exceptionally good barrel first. If the barrel isn't built for higher precision work, then it won't get noticeably better if you float it, and it won't be worse if you don't float it.
At the moment, I'm saving my lunch money to buy an upper receiver to build my only free float; it'll have an Adams Arms piston system on it, and I'm going with a FF MI rail, not "because" it's a free float rail, but because I don't want to bother with putting a handguard cap on the barrel before I put the piston block on... And the MI rail looks like it'll be very handy as well. |
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Millions of GI's have killed millions of bad guys without a free float barrel. If you want to float it go ahead. But depending on the type of shooting you are doing, it may not make a bit of difference. Most guns, floated or not, are more accurate than the human holding them. This should be quoted every time a freefloat vs non free float thread starts. |
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In my opinion, the only time you'll see a difference in accuracy between floated versus not floated is if you pony up the bucks to get an exceptionally good barrel first. If the barrel isn't built for higher precision work, then it won't get noticeably better if you float it, and it won't be worse if you don't float it. At the moment, I'm saving my lunch money to buy an upper receiver to build my only free float; it'll have an Adams Arms piston system on it, and I'm going with a FF MI rail, not "because" it's a free float rail, but because I don't want to bother with putting a handguard cap on the barrel before I put the piston block on... And the MI rail looks like it'll be very handy as well. I have to agree. The first build I ever made was with a monolithic upper and a Noveske barrel. It really shoots better than any off the shelf upper I have. I also agree that the ammo is a weak link in the machine. To be honest, however, a FFB was kinda a short cut for me. Seemed easier to build at the time. |
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In my opinion, the only time you'll see a difference in accuracy between floated versus not floated is if you pony up the bucks to get an exceptionally good barrel first. If the barrel isn't built for higher precision work, then it won't get noticeably better if you float it, and it won't be worse if you don't float it. At the moment, I'm saving my lunch money to buy an upper receiver to build my only free float; it'll have an Adams Arms piston system on it, and I'm going with a FF MI rail, not "because" it's a free float rail, but because I don't want to bother with putting a handguard cap on the barrel before I put the piston block on... And the MI rail looks like it'll be very handy as well. +1 ..and yes, we do Rule. 
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This should be quoted every time a freefloat vs non free float thread starts. Quoted:
Quoted:
Millions of GI's have killed millions of bad guys without a free float barrel. If you want to float it go ahead. But depending on the type of shooting you are doing, it may not make a bit of difference. Most guns, floated or not, are more accurate than the human holding them. This should be quoted every time a freefloat vs non free float thread starts. they also expended something like 50K rounds for each of those also |
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It also depends on how you shoot -
I've found a mono-podded magazine to be about 90% as stable as a true bipod in real life conditions, if you zero with a mono-podded magazine and a receiver hold or a just a light forearm support for stability only and take your ranged shots where accuracy is most important the same way, you've effectively free floated your barrel without actually installing a FF tube. I've found this to be effective in engaging man-sized targets from a 14.5" barrel using M855 out to 600m with a 4x optic in circumstances where simply installing a FF tube is not a realistic option, nor is specialty ammunition. At closer ranges as long as you're not heavily pre-loading a bipod or applying heavy heavy sling pressure you're probably not going to notice much in the way of practical benefits from free floating. I use FF handguards and rails on "social guns" because they offer increased rail and grip space and usually superior cooling. That they free float the barrel is a happy consequence of that, and granted - there's little enough reason not to FF if you can, but IMHO, it's not, in and of itself reason enough to do it. Understand this is for more "general purpose" style weapons, as well, a precision rig should have a floated barrel if you're meaning to get the most potential out of it in that role, but there are a great deal of other things besides simply free-floating the barrel that should be done as well. ~Augee |
| So it would seem then that the only reason not to free float, is just to not free float. It would also seem that free floating can be forgone for strange and specific shooting techniques. So if my gun is not so great already, then free floating wont help it enough to matter, and if it is good already, it needs to be free floated to really shine. Not what I was hoping to hear, but more or less what I expected. Well heres to hoping I am not a good enough shot to notice, or its accuracy isn't that great already so I don't have to worry about it. |
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OP, what ammo were you using when trying to get groups? My purpose built precision AR can shoot 1/4 consistently with handloads that ive perfected over the last month, but if i switch to off the shelf XM193 or any other cheap factory ammo, it gets sloppy and i cannot get better than 2moa no matter how well i try to shoot.
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a option ( i personally dislike tubes and rails and have zero desire to attach every known appliance to my rifle ) is a Service Rifle Free Float Tube.
these are made by various manufacturers and are are designed to be used under a set of std. A2 handguards (i tried to get a set of A1's to go, but didn't have much success.) call them "stealth" free float if you will. 
they were made for Service Rifle competition where the rifle must appear "as issued" the downside is weight, it is very heavy. (it's a foot long tube of steel!) and no, you can't use a bipod in Service, it's baby steps for me.(it's gone now) |
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If you don't want/need a FF, don't...there's nothing wrong with non-FF handguards/rails: unless you're out bench resting your rifle for groups, you'll never see the difference a FF makes. The ammo is typically the weak link in the AR, so unless you're shooting match ammo, you won't see much difference no matter what you do. Only thing I disagree with in your statement is the you'll never see the difference, Depending on how tight your sling hold is, you can change your POI a little bit.. but not a heck of alot, I agree with them.. just go shoot it.. The rifles I shot in the army were non floated M4's.. still could consistently shoot 36-38/40 targets when qualifying. |
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My first build was a military style 5.56 rifle. Because I wanted low cost, I went with GI parts including delta ring and MOE rifle length handguards, see pic below. I soon found out my low cost build, including a $150 Green Mountain barrel, exhibited excellent accuracy, so I switched to a FF handguard. Now it routinely shoots 10 rounds into less than an inch at 100 yds. Had the initial accuracy been mediocre, the rifle would probably still be wearing Magpul MOE handguards, which I really like. - CW [URL=[URL=http://s1012.photobucket.com/user/chasw44/media/AR15build/2011_0704AR-15build0003.jpg.html]http://i1012.photobucket.com/albums/af242/chasw44/AR15build/2011_0704AR-15build0003.jpg[/URL Have a pic of 10 rds in a inch>? |
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Again I haven't shot it at all yet, and may not if I decide it would be better off being sold to buy a new mini 14, so you all know, the rifle is an m&p sport(the newer one with the 1:9 twist). I want a light, simple, accurate, and reliable rifle that will at most wear a flashlight, a plain 2 point sling, and a low power scope or red dot. I don't want to have to do anything to the rifle. My sport is already wearing a umbrella corp grip; I don't want to do anything more to it. Would accuracy be more predictable from a mini than a non free floated sport?
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Again I haven't shot it at all yet, and may not if I decide it would be better off being sold to buy a new mini 14, so you all know, the rifle is an m&p sport(the newer one with the 1:9 twist). I want a light, simple, accurate, and reliable rifle that will at most wear a flashlight, a plain 2 point sling, and a low power scope or red dot. I don't want to have to do anything to the rifle. My sport is already wearing a umbrella corp grip; I don't want to do anything more to it. Would accuracy be more predictable from a mini than a non free floated sport? calm down already..... the AR is the better platform...... you obviously just bought the thing without doing much homework..... why don't you just read some? |
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This sounds like a case of too much reading and not enough shooting. It's highly likely that once you actually get out and shoot the gun, you will see that it does everything you need it to do, and is probably more accurate than you are in stock trim.
Step 1 - SHOOT THE GUN Step 2 - Learn what deficiencies you'd like to remedy Step 3 - Upgrade appropriately (or not). |
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This sounds like a case of too much reading and not enough shooting. It's highly likely that once you actually get out and shoot the gun, you will see that it does everything you need it to do, and is probably more accurate than you are in stock trim. Step 1 - SHOOT THE GUN Step 2 - Learn what deficiencies you'd like to remedy Step 3 - Upgrade appropriately (or not). Step 4 - Profit
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| Well, I did homework, just not enough to find some of the things I have recently. I had both rifles (mini and sport) and had to sell one. All easy to find info said to go with the sport, but the info I am finding now regarding some of the downfalls of the ar for my personal use were a little less easy to find, and more or less I found on accident. It's not very commonly mentioned that to get the best out of an ar it needs to be free floated or its accuracy will be upset seemingly easy by external forces. If I shoot it I will not be able to sell it for what I could now. I had a hard time choosing which one to sell. I didn't get a chance to shoot either of the rifles, I wish I would have before selling one but I didn't. |
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Millions of GI's have killed millions of bad guys without a free float barrel. If you want to float it go ahead. But depending on the type of shooting you are doing, it may not make a bit of difference. Most guns, floated or not, are more accurate than the human holding them. +1 Lancelot has the definitive opinion here. Dang Man, you need to switch to decaf and quit worrying about this crap. Just pick the rifle you prefer and sell the other. Either will probably shoot better than you can right now, so don't obsess over every little iota of mechanical accuracy. |
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I have had mini's and ar's, the mini's are long gone, mini's are fine for burning up ammo, but tight group's forget about it.
I have one ff ar now and it shoots good ammo into 1 inch, and i have one 20" hbar non ff that will shoot good ammo into 1 inch also, no way i am going to make the starndard 20" a ff. The ammo you choose will make a huge difference in the ar's, in the mini you can't tell one brand of ammo from the next -truth. |
I read everything about mini-14's not being accurate so I decided to prove the world wrong and bought a ranch rifle with the new barrel profile. 608.00 brand new I then shot the rifle bone stock and about had a stroke it was horrible so I retorqued the gas block , added an accu-strut , houge stock glass bedded the action and a leupold 2x7 x33 scope ,I tried factory ammo and could not even get a 5 inch group at 100 yds with blackhills 68 grain match. hornady 75 grain match was a disaster , so to the reloading bench I went and finally found a 52 grain hornady amax load that would do 2.5 inch at 100 yds . I had 1100.00 dollares invested in a 10 pound average shooting rifle. lucky for me when the world turned upside down I sold it and actually made 100.00 to the good.
this is my smithand wesson m&p-15 chambered in 300 blackout with a cheap ass 3x9 simmons scope I took off another rifle. nothing special at all I have 850.00 dollars invested total and it weighs just a hair over 8 lbs with the optic. 
10 shots 100 yds with brass I made out of 223 cases and hornady v-max 110 grain bullets which are definatly not match grade bullets. plus I had the suppresor hanging off the end of the barrel . keep your smith it is the better gun. 
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Well, I did homework, just not enough to find some of the things I have recently. I had both rifles (mini and sport) and had to sell one. All easy to find info said to go with the sport, but the info I am finding now regarding some of the downfalls of the ar for my personal use were a little less easy to find, and more or less I found on accident. It's not very commonly mentioned that to get the best out of an ar it needs to be free floated or its accuracy will be upset seemingly easy by external forces. If I shoot it I will not be able to sell it for what I could now. I had a hard time choosing which one to sell. I didn't get a chance to shoot either of the rifles, I wish I would have before selling one but I didn't. So you think the mini14 is set up for max accuracy out of the box? Everyone I know who had a mini, except one has gotten rid of it and he has never shot the weapon. External force applied to any rifle’s barrel will change POI and accuracy. |
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I have been shooting without a FF barrel for a while now.
If you want to increase the accuracy of the gun sure... FF would be great. The question is can you take advantage of that increase in accuracy off the bench? If you are going to upgrade the weapon, start with a nice optic. The scope (or red dot) will do more for your capability to hit a target than the FF rail will. Remember your box stock gun can probably do 2MOA with quality ammunition. If the FF rail makes the rifle capable of 1.5 or 1 MOA is the investment worth it for your uses? Can you shoot to that level of accuracy? Can you see your target easily at 300 yards? 400? Will the FF rail help you at home defense distances? Get an optic, get an optic, get an optic. If you have a cheap ass optic then sell it and instead of FF get a better optic. Been there. Do not FF that rifle until you stick some good glass on top. Here is my first time shooting at 600 yards. I did use the sling (nylon GI web sling) to sling up. A2 rifle with iron sights. 
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If you want to buy a new AR with a FF barrel, fine. If you already own a standard rifle, before you spend money on floating the barrel: 1. Spend your money on quality ammunition and then go shoot it. lots of it. 2. Spend your money on a quality optic, and then go shoot it, a lot, with your quality ammunition. 3. Think real hard about how you shoot. the only time I found a free float barrel necessary was at ranges beyond 300 yards where I needed a very high level of precision, and also when I shot using a sling support (highpower-type). Only if your standard handguard is the weakest link in the process should you consider free-floating. And you have to have a quality barrel in the first place. |
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Everyone here is basically saying the same thing boss. There are a lot of knowledgeable people on this forum who have been there done that. The only way you are going to be confident in ANY weapon platform is to go out and shoot it. Run some drills, put it through the paces, and find out what will or wont work for you. Bottom line: AR>Mini 14 any day of the week & twice on Sunday.
Edited (Grammar for Marines) |
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Alright, well, between this and some other info I finally dug up elsewhere on this website(a post asking why all ar's don't just come free floated) I got some comfort in having kept the ar. I think I will have this rifle with me when I finally make it to the range as money starts making it's way back in.
Does anyone have a non free float that is particularly accurate? Anybody have an m&p sport they have shot from various positions without to much change in point of impact? How much more accuracy could reasonably be expected by adding a free float alone? Anyone have a typical real world example from one of their rifles? What I was really hoping to hear was that point of impact change wouldn't really be so much so as to bring you off a man sized target at 100 yards as some have suggested. |
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What I was really hoping to hear was that point of impact change wouldn't really be so much so as to bring you off a man sized target at 100 yards as some have suggested. Soldiers have been using non-FF handguards since the 1960's, and haven't had issues with hitting man sized targets past 300 yards with open sights, let alone 100 yards. You should be fine. |
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What I was really hoping to hear was that point of impact change wouldn't really be so much so as to bring you off a man sized target at 100 yards as some have suggested. Who suggested this? You've got to the freaking Hulk to sling up or load a bipod so much that you're going to get 9 MOA worth of POI shift (18" "man sized" target, assuming COM hold). We're talking about the difference between drilling a guy in the eyeball or the nostril here. I assure you, your AR, FF or not will be more than sufficient to hold a man sized target at 100yds. unless it is literally defective. Hell, even a Mini should be able to do that... maybe.
~Augee |
| Interesting video from Daniel Defense on free floating. YMMV Free float video |
. If it makes you feel any better my next build won't have a ff handguard, just a Magpul MOE.
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See thats what I am talking about, that video, not encouraging. That video was an advertisement made by a company trying to sell you free-float rails! The ad, while it may have some merit, is disingenuous (as all advertisements are) in it's comparisons. And this is coming from a guy who owns a lot of Daniel Defense products including barrels, BCGs, sights, and Free-Float rails! This weekend I went out and shot my new DD 11.5" SBR with carry handle and FSB irons and standard plastic handguard. It was 2moa all day with factory ammo. Easy. And this was only my 3rd time shooting irons! (Sorry had to brag on myself a little )
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| I am new to the AR also. Will be using it for hunting, deer, hog, maybe coyote. I went with non FF, no other reason than that was what was available at the time. It's accurate and I know I could shoot a squirrel at 100 yards if I had to. You are def. over thinking it man. Go out and have some fun with it. |
| Well, thanks guys, I over think everything I think(still thinking) I have had a lot of firearm related decisions go not so great because I just winged it. I am what most people would call poor, so I have to be very careful were money goes and now I am less than poor so it's even worse. Thanks again everyone, I use this forum a lot (though I don't post too often just read). |
| Non free float barrels would seem to me to be better for use with iron sights. With todays rails being so long its hard to think that a non free floated barrel would have more movement than a rail mounted front sight being that these rails are rather easy to move with minimal pressure. Running a free floated barrel with an optic is where the real benefits are seen. |
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YES YES YES
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I have been shooting without a FF barrel for a while now. If you want to increase the accuracy of the gun sure... FF would be great. The question is can you take advantage of that increase in accuracy off the bench? If you are going to upgrade the weapon, start with a nice optic. The scope (or red dot) will do more for your capability to hit a target than the FF rail will. Remember your box stock gun can probably do 2MOA with quality ammunition. If the FF rail makes the rifle capable of 1.5 or 1 MOA is the investment worth it for your uses? Can you shoot to that level of accuracy? Can you see your target easily at 300 yards? 400? Will the FF rail help you at home defense distances? Get an optic, get an optic, get an optic. If you have a cheap ass optic then sell it and instead of FF get a better optic. Been there. Do not FF that rifle until you stick some good glass on top. Here is my first time shooting at 600 yards. I did use the sling (nylon GI web sling) to sling up. A2 rifle with iron sights. http://www.thenewrifleman.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/600-yards-768x1024.jpg |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Not free floating? (Page 1 of 2)
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