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Posted: 5/28/2013 10:04:49 AM EDT
| im shooting off a 14.5" barrel(16 with comp), commercial ammo with a bariska(shit i know)3-9 variable scope off the bench at 100yrds. While im happy i built a running gun, i spent 50 in ammo the other day trying to get it dials and i struggled to get a couple holes within 3" of one another. what should this gun be capable of at this yardage? any suggestions? how far should i be able to group? i was very very awar of my trigget pull when testing. Im not sure what im doing wrong, but i have to be doing something. |
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Taylor is saying that a host of variables makes a gun shoot well or poorly. Standard ammo and a cheap optic will never deliver any groups. At a minimum you need to start there to see what you can do. A 3 to 4 inch group isnt uncommon with 55 gr FMJ in many guns. When you add in a cheap optic that you cant trust holding zero, you are very limited in moving forward to better groups. Suggestions: 1. Try some Federal GMM 69 gr BTHP ammo (depending on your barrel twist). 2. Get a decent optic, dosent have to be expensive, but not made in China. 3. Post a picture of the gun so we can see the forearm-bipod (if any)-scope mount-amd everything else. |
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Taylor is saying that a host of variables makes a gun shoot well or poorly. Standard ammo and a cheap optic will never deliver any groups. At a minimum you need to start there to see what you can do. A 3 to 4 inch group isnt uncommon with 55 gr FMJ in many guns. When you add in a cheap optic that you cant trust holding zero, you are very limited in moving forward to better groups. ok that sounds reasonable. lets say i get some better glass...am i still looking at 3" groups without match grade ammo? any suggestions? depressing... |
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Quoted: Quoted: Taylor is saying that a host of variables makes a gun shoot well or poorly. Standard ammo and a cheap optic will never deliver any groups. At a minimum you need to start there to see what you can do. A 3 to 4 inch group isnt uncommon with 55 gr FMJ in many guns. When you add in a cheap optic that you cant trust holding zero, you are very limited in moving forward to better groups. ok that sounds reasonable. lets say i get some better glass...am i still looking at 3" groups without match grade ammo? any suggestions? depressing... It depends on too many factors to guess what you may group. But it's a worthwhile exercise to keep improving it and practicing. Although the other poster said one standard is 4 MOA, that rifle is about as bad as Ive ever seen, and useless except as a short range plinker. A realistic goal is 2 MOA as a start. I have an AR that will shoot 0.4 MOA, but it was very expensive and took a year of shooting and tweaking to get there. Dont get discouraged. Almost forgot, without match grade, or at least high quality ammo, few if any rifles are going to shoot well. The bullet shape/weight/depth and powder charges are just to inconsistent for any rifle to shoot but so accurately. For some ammo, 3 MOA is actually good. |
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Taylor is saying that a host of variables makes a gun shoot well or poorly. Standard ammo and a cheap optic will never deliver any groups. At a minimum you need to start there to see what you can do. A 3 to 4 inch group isnt uncommon with 55 gr FMJ in many guns. When you add in a cheap optic that you cant trust holding zero, you are very limited in moving forward to better groups. ok that sounds reasonable. lets say i get some better glass...am i still looking at 3" groups without match grade ammo? any suggestions? depressing... It depends on too many factors to guess what you may group. But it's a worthwhile exercise to keep improving it and practicing. Although the other poster said one standard is 4 MOA, that rifle is about as bad as Ive ever seen, and useless except as a short range plinker. A realistic goal is 2 MOA as a start. I have an AR that will shoot 0.4 MOA, but it was very expensive and took a year of shooting and tweaking to get there. Dont get discouraged. I understand that a tight MOA is based on an array of factors...am i asking too much from my set up? Im going to be discouraged if i spent 1200 bulding a gun that shoots 3" groups. not sure how ill ever get around that. your at .4 on a 16" barrel?!? |
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My match grade AR has a Lilja 23", 1/8 twist, Wylde chamber barrel. A short barrel can actually be more accurate, you just have less velocity. Of course every barrel is different, some just shoot well. Well hopefully i can sort it our. I wasnt aiming to built a match grade gun...just wanted an all around solid shooter, and(stupid me)i really though that getting inside 2" wouldnt be a stretch. My next build is going to be a grendel or a 7mm bolt gun, but clearly i have much much much to learn yet. |
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I understand that a tight MOA is based on an array of factors...am i asking too much from my set up? Im going to be discouraged if i spent 1200 bulding a gun that shoots 3" groups. not sure how ill ever get around that. That's why I posted the milspec. If you are uisng rack grade components you can't expect more than rack grade accuracy. You'll bang your head against a wall trying. Some rack grade components stack the tolerances in such a way that you do see better than average accuracy. Some rifles off the shelf just happen to print better. The milspec is a minimum standard. But there's no way of telling whether or not that will be the case going in. To get better than that (reliably) you'll need to Free float the barrel Use a quality matchgrade barrel Use a solid and repeatable sighting system do your part Add A good trigger and match ammo to get the rest of the way A Volkswagen isn't going to perform like a Porsche. |
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Quoted: Quoted: I understand that a tight MOA is based on an array of factors...am i asking too much from my set up? Im going to be discouraged if i spent 1200 bulding a gun that shoots 3" groups. not sure how ill ever get around that. That's why I posted the milspec. If you are uisng rack grade components you can't expect more than rack grade accuracy. You'll bang your head against a wall trying. Some rack grade components stack the tolerances in such a way that you do see better than average accuracy. Some rifles off the shelf just happen to print better. The milspec is a minimum standard. But there's no way of telling whether or not that will be the case going in. To get better than that (reliably) you'll need to Free float the barrel Use a quality matchgrade barrel Use a solid and repeatable sighting system do your part Add A good trigger and match ammo to get the rest of the way A Volkswagen isn't going to perform like a Porsche. Unless you slap Porsche heads on the VW  Agreed with the above. What 14.5" barrel do you have? My Colt 14.5" SOCOM barrel is a shooter. I haven't really tried to see just how tight she can shoot with a magnified optic, but I was seeing 2-2.5MOA groups at 100 yards when I was developing a load for some 55gr Hornady SPs and FMJs. This was using GI Irons, not an optic. While I doubt it's a MOA barrel, it's a solid 2MOA I bet, with ammo that's capable of that or better.
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thank you.
sounds like i have a mess. cut floated barrel 1:9 twist and a nice single stage trigger. nib bcg...i tried to buy decent stuff. or what i thought was decent, although when i bought the scope from my buddy i knew it was just going to get me going. a cheap scope is bad why? as long as its locked down and doesnt move shouldnt it repeat? i have a ruger10/22 carbine with a 20dollar scope and its a tack driver. I know im comparing apples to oranges but i thought i build something better than rack grade. |
Does your barrel have m4 feed ramps as well as your upper recvr? If so you should look to make sure they are properly aligned sometimes when torquing the barrel they can become misaligned which can cause a myriad of problems from feeding to accuracy. It's something simple to look for at least 
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I don't know how the arch of the bullet path changes using a 1/9 to the currently standard twist of 1/7; but the US ARMY battlesight zero's their rifles with a 25m zeroing target. This is the FM I'm using to get my skills up to par; and I'm shooting for a 1.5 to 2 MOA. Which with a 14.5 M4 1/7 barrel that's zeroed at 25m; also zeros it out to 300m due to the arch of the bullet in flight.
http://www.usanato.army.mil/content/documents/bde/safety/safety_pubs/FM3-22-9.pdf |
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AMMO
Try more! 3 MOA is normal, but it doesn't have to be the norm. I have a PSA with a FN chrome lined barrel. It loves Fiocci 55grn FMJ. It'll shoot it around 1.5 MOA with relative ease. It does MOA with hand loads. I have another RRA wylde stainless gun that goes MOA with BVAC 55grn PSP reloads. Every gun has it's preferred ammo. It's not always expensive stuff. Good luck. I'm sure you'll be fine. FWIW.... my best shooter (1/2 MOA occasionally) was shooting 3 MOA out of the box. After 50 rounds the groups were shrinking in a hurry. Some barrels need break in. |
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AMMO Try more! 3 MOA is normal, but it doesn't have to be the norm. I have a PSA with a FN chrome lined barrel. It loves Fiocci 55grn FMJ. It'll shoot it around 1.5 MOA with relative ease. It does MOA with hand loads. I have another RRA wylde stainless gun that goes MOA with BVAC 55grn PSP reloads. Every gun has it's preferred ammo. It's not always expensive stuff. Good luck. I'm sure you'll be fine. FWIW.... my best shooter (1/2 MOA occasionally) was shooting 3 MOA out of the box. After 50 rounds the groups were shrinking in a hurry. Some barrels need break in. thank u sir |
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I don't know how the arch of the bullet path changes using a 1/9 to the currently standard twist of 1/7; but the US ARMY battlesight zero's their rifles with a 25m zeroing target. This is the FM I'm using to get my skills up to par; and I'm shooting for a 1.5 to 2 MOA. Which with a 14.5 M4 1/7 barrel that's zeroed at 25m; also zeros it out to 300m due to the arch of the bullet in flight. http://www.usanato.army.mil/content/documents/bde/safety/safety_pubs/FM3-22-9.pdf thanks for the link! |
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First, using less expensive ammo, work on trigger control. A poor trigger technique can pull groups open quite easily.
Next, even a cheap scope can be OK if it is consistent. At 50 yards, unless you're blinder than I am, a 3X scope that stays lined up is more than adequate. Barska isn't the best, but it isn't the worst, either. Just make sure the scope is solidly mounted. "Off the bench" can mean different things to different people. Check out Old Painless' educational entry on how to shoot off a bench for some pointers. That little item pointed out about 40 things I had been doing wrong, and that helped my bench shooting a lot. Finally, to find out how accurate a rifle can be, you need the most accurate ammunition available, not the cheapest available. Expect to spend some money on "good" ammo when you get to the point where you want to wring out all the accuracy you can get from that barrel. But remember, you have to do your part, so get the trigger controlled and practice getting a very consistent bench rest position before you buy that pricy ammo. |
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I hear ya...i spent 4 hours shooting 50 rounds. i tried so hard to have consistant posture and trigger pull. Im going to shoot it from a shooting vice at some poin this week.
I would think that even a cheap scope would shoot consistant. will the glass move inside the tube?? is that what people are btching about cheap scopes? or is it clarity at full magnification. because it definitly doesnt give me a crisp picture at 9x. |
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I hear ya...i spent 4 hours shooting 50 rounds. i tried so hard to have consistant posture and trigger pull. Im going to shoot it from a shooting vice at some poin this week. I would think that even a cheap scope would shoot consistant. will the glass move inside the tube?? is that what people are btching about cheap scopes? or is it clarity at full magnification. because it definitly doesnt give me a crisp picture at 9x. It is very possible that the adjustments aren't solid inside the scope and that they move under recoil. That is the main reason people hate cheap ass optics, they literally won't hold a zero. ETA: Not saying this is necessarily your problem, but if you are chasing your zero around, chances are its the POS scope. |
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I hear ya...i spent 4 hours shooting 50 rounds. i tried so hard to have consistant posture and trigger pull. Im going to shoot it from a shooting vice at some poin this week. I would think that even a cheap scope would shoot consistant. will the glass move inside the tube?? is that what people are btching about cheap scopes? or is it clarity at full magnification. because it definitly doesnt give me a crisp picture at 9x. It is very possible that the adjustments aren't solid inside the scope and that they move under recoil. That is the main reason people hate cheap ass optics, they literally won't hold a zero. ETA: Not saying this is necessarily your problem, but if you are chasing your zero around, chances are its the POS scope. THANKS dude. i bought it just to get me going...but i guess it didnt get me far. fk. ammo and scope sounds like. |
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With excellent quality ammo (I recommend 75 grain hornady steel match if you have a 1/7 twist barrel) both my white oak match build and my rack grade Colt do about 1.5'' at 100 yards, with A2 sights. I would likely do much better on the white oak if I were using an optic to test group size. The big factors reducing your accuracy are likely ammo quality, optic quality, and/or trigger control. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I hear ya...i spent 4 hours shooting 50 rounds. i tried so hard to have consistant posture and trigger pull. Im going to shoot it from a shooting vice at some poin this week. I would think that even a cheap scope would shoot consistant. will the glass move inside the tube?? is that what people are btching about cheap scopes? or is it clarity at full magnification. because it definitly doesnt give me a crisp picture at 9x. It is very possible that the adjustments aren't solid inside the scope and that they move under recoil. That is the main reason people hate cheap ass optics, they literally won't hold a zero. ETA: Not saying this is necessarily your problem, but if you are chasing your zero around, chances are its the POS scope. THANKS dude. i bought it just to get me going...but i guess it didnt get me far. fk. ammo and scope sounds like. Try shooting groups with irons at 50 and 100 yards 1st then try your scope again. |
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How many shots in a group? Malone has some great threads that I learned alot from.
especially the one " trouble with 3 shot groups" and the one on mia vs mean radius. Read all of them! With federal ammo my gun shoots 4" 10 shot groups. With 75 black hills its 1.25. Big difference. |
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To be honest the barska is probably holding this back more than any else my buddy put on on his AR lasted less than 20 rounds irons might be a better investment if your short on cash or look at a Leupold rifleman series. best of luck -sigadvantage- which is fine by me. i only got the scope to hold me over tuntill i could come up with 2-300 for a decent piece. I just didnt think it would be so awful. thank u sir |
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