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Posted: 8/24/2012 1:02:11 PM EDT
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After racking my brain around this stuff and getting nowhere, I figured I'd toss it out there for you guys to mull on for a bit.
Free Floating handguards. I'd sat and read countless articles, threads, internet catfights about them to the point where my eyes and brian hurt and I am either more conflicted about them than when I started. I know from a technical perspective they can help consistency and to some extent accuracy, but I always end up back at the base question of "Are they worth the extra expense?" Just for a few scenarios here, if you could provide some insight regarding if they will provide a significant benefit that would be great. Assume the range is a maximum of 300m and that any sort of sighting system is fair game for use. -Hasty Sling Standing -Sling Supported Prone -Bipod Supported -Hard rest supported (Block of wood, window sill, concrete block) -Soft rest supported (Sandbags) ––-Other Related Questions––- It is my current understanding that the tension of a sling can move POI and a free floating handguard would show advantages, but does a bipod or rest impart enough force to do the same? If you have a front sight on a free floated hand guard, couldn't the sling tension screw with your sight alignment as well or would the shape and mounting of the handguard negate that? How much does barrel profile factor into this? Then come the questions about specific handguards. I have seen bare tubes and I have seen quad rails. Tubes seem to at the very most have a stud on the bottom. They start at about $50 for a basic tube and go to around $200 for the carbon fiber ones. Quad rails add weight, are typically not as comfortable, and add the temptation to buy extra crap to throw on them. Rails start at about $80 and go to over $300. Does anyone make a magical product that has a stud on the bottom and just enough rail on the top to mount a BUIS? The closest I think I have seen is the Midwest Industries SS Series with the one full length top rail and can have a small bottom rail or stud adapter mounted. Are the less expensive rails, such as Yankee Hill or even the new UTG Pro, work well or do you really need to go to the more expensive side of things for a basic handguard that has these features? I'm talking more about being suited for the casual shooter than a daily use / abuse military or patrol rifle application. Basically, for your average shooter does a free floating handguard make a significant difference and if so what is a budget minded solution? I can respect the quality of the higher end brands, but for someone like me the cost difference could be used elsewhere, like more ammo to practice with. |
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The effectiveness of FF is very real.
I cannot get consistent groups with my 16" carbine with MOE furniture shooting with the barrel not real firmly resting on sandbags, woodblock, or bipod. Even at 50yds I had trouble get my 3.5x ACOG sighted in. Going to rest on the the mag and the groups tightened up and are consistent. Consistency ––> accuracy. With the chrome lined barrel I get stay under 2MOA resting off the mag. With my LaRue Stealth that has 15" FF quad rail with front flip-up iron at the very end of the rail. I haven't noticed any change in POA/POI even out to 320yds I can still make 10"x10" steel ring every time shooting from bags, bipod, or woodblock. This gun will shoot 1/2MOA. I have yet to see what a tube FF like a JP will do with irons but I run that on my 3gun rifle and it is very accurate, granted the barrel is very capable. I am building some more fighting style rifles using DD chrome lined middy barrels. I will be using JP/VTAC tubes but am using an FSB so we'll see what accuracy they put out. There are tubes that have a rail that runs the length of the tube for irons or what not. JP/VTAC has sections that are made specifically for the 12 o'clock position for use with irons. |
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Short answer....If you are running a magnified optic and want to make precsion shots at extended ranges, a FF lends itself to increasing your success rate. If you are running irons or a RDS and shooting 250 yrds and less a FF is not worth the extra expense IMO.
I run a 16" gun with a 12" TROY and I like it. I also run a BCM M4 style 16" with MOE gear and it works well also. The Troy gun has a aimpoint pro with a magnifier. The BCM has a CompM2. They both have sling and light mounts on the handguard. YMMV |
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Short answer....If you are running a magnified optic and want to make precsion shots at extended ranges, a FF lends itself to increasing your success rate. If you are running irons or a RDS and shooting 250 yrds and less a FF is not worth the extra expense IMO. I run a 16" gun with a 12" TROY and I like it. I also run a BCM M4 style 16" with MOE gear and it works well also. The Troy gun has a aimpoint pro with a magnifier. The BCM has a CompM2. They both have sling and light mounts on the handguard. YMMV You say they have sling mounts, but are you using the sling for support? The tension from the sling is one of my biggest concerns. |
| There's a thread around showing different POI from various shooting positions and stances. Maybe someone's google-fu is better than mine and can find it? It shows substantial POI changes from supported, unsupported, bean bag rest, etc. and the changes are huge. Like enough to miss your target. I don't know if it is that important for anything with a hundred or two yards but past that with all things else being equal, yes I believe it effects the consistency of your accuracy. |
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Assuming you are a right-handed shooter:
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After racking my brain around this stuff and getting nowhere, I figured I'd toss it out there for you guys to mull on for a bit. Free Floating handguards. I'd sat and read countless articles, threads, internet catfights about them to the point where my eyes and brian hurt and I am either more conflicted about them than when I started. I know from a technical perspective they can help consistency and to some extent accuracy, but I always end up back at the base question of "Are they worth the extra expense?" Just for a few scenarios here, if you could provide some insight regarding if they will provide a significant benefit that would be great. Assume the range is a maximum of 300m and that any sort of sighting system is fair game for use. -Hasty Sling Standing Will pull your POI down and to the left. Anywhere from an inch or two at 100 meters all the way up to 8" or more. -Sling Supported Prone Will pull your POI down and to the left. This likely will be more noticeable than hasty sling, and will be the upper end of that 2"-8" of deflection, depending on sling tension and barrel type. -Bipod Supported Will push your POI up. Can be just a couple of inches at 100 meters... could be more. -Hard rest supported (Block of wood, window sill, concrete block) Same as bipod supported - depending on where under the forearm you place the rest and the bipod. -Soft rest supported (Sandbags) Not much appreciable difference between this and bipod and hard rest. The key is the weight of the rifle - not the type of rest. ––-Other Related Questions––- It is my current understanding that the tension of a sling can move POI and a free floating handguard would show advantages, but does a bipod or rest impart enough force to do the same? YES!!! Just in the other direction. If you have a front sight on a free floated hand guard, couldn't the sling tension screw with your sight alignment as well or would the shape and mounting of the handguard negate that? Yes, the front sight will be pulled off such that the POA =/= POI. However, a standard front sight (attached to the barrel) would be unaffected. How much does barrel profile factor into this? A lot. Government profile carbine and pencil barrels will see the most deflection. HBARs will see the least. They will all see some. Then come the questions about specific handguards. I have seen bare tubes and I have seen quad rails. Tubes seem to at the very most have a stud on the bottom. They start at about $50 for a basic tube and go to around $200 for the carbon fiber ones. Quad rails add weight, are typically not as comfortable, and add the temptation to buy extra crap to throw on them. Rails start at about $80 and go to over $300. Does anyone make a magical product that has a stud on the bottom and just enough rail on the top to mount a BUIS? YHM makes a tube that you can use to add only as much rail as you want. Here it is! The closest I think I have seen is the Midwest Industries SS Series with the one full length top rail and can have a small bottom rail or stud adapter mounted. Are the less expensive rails, such as Yankee Hill or even the new UTG Pro, work well or do you really need to go to the more expensive side of things for a basic handguard that has these features? I'm talking more about being suited for the casual shooter than a daily use / abuse military or patrol rifle application. I have a YHM diamond ($140) that is as rugged as any $300 quad rail I've seen or worked with. Basically, for your average shooter does a free floating handguard make a significant difference and if so what is a budget minded solution? Depends. Real, true, average shooter from my experience - no discernible difference. I can respect the quality of the higher end brands, but for someone like me the cost difference could be used elsewhere, like more ammo to practice with. Amen. Training >>> Tools. |
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Short answer....If you are running a magnified optic and want to make precsion shots at extended ranges, a FF lends itself to increasing your success rate. If you are running irons or a RDS and shooting 250 yrds and less a FF is not worth the extra expense IMO. I run a 16" gun with a 12" TROY and I like it. I also run a BCM M4 style 16" with MOE gear and it works well also. The Troy gun has a aimpoint pro with a magnifier. The BCM has a CompM2. They both have sling and light mounts on the handguard. YMMV You say they have sling mounts, but are you using the sling for support? The tension from the sling is one of my biggest concerns. No not for shooting support. (Hasty etc.) They are 2 point quick adjust carry slings only. Being cinched into or wrapped up in a sling would not be benficial in the type of shooting I do and teach. If you are going to put a great deal of tension on your sling and there by your fore end for shooting support, then the FF is what you are looking for. |
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I didnt read the other comments so forgive me if this has been covered. I think the only way your average shooter will notice a difference is if they are shooting match ammo or handloads.
If youre only pljnking with 4-5 moa tula then a free float rail aint gonna gain you much. |
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I didnt read the other comments so forgive me if this has been covered. I think the only way your average shooter will notice a difference is if they are shooting match ammo or handloads. If youre only pljnking with 4-5 moa tula then a free float rail aint gonna gain you much.
There is plenty of cheap ammo like PMC, m193, m855 that the shift will be noticed. I personally have seen it not only in my shooting but others shooting at 3gun matches. Even with the cheap Tula ammo, if the pressure was fairly consistent in one direction the average center of the group would show a shift or see even bigger groups. |
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Forgot to mention, Kyle Lamb of VTAC says sling tension will change POI and thus recommends FF. If you think about how much pressure from shooting just off a rest your sling tension is probably pretty close. I can give a fairly light push in any direction on my muzzle and see the barrel deflect in relation to the end of the 12" rail. If I can see the deflection at one foot, it's gonna subtend to a substantial change at 300 feet, let alone 900 feet like the OP was asking about. |
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Sling up tight on a "regular" mil-spec AR barrel and swivel and you can certainly cause barrel deflection. How much varies on the person, their consistency, the sling material, and possibly even the barrel temp, barrel nut torque, and barrel extension fit against the upper receiver.
Consider how many service rifle shooters are using non-FF barrels. |
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I didnt read the other comments so forgive me if this has been covered. I think the only way your average shooter will notice a difference is if they are shooting match ammo or handloads. If youre only pljnking with 4-5 moa tula then a free float rail aint gonna gain you much.
There is plenty of cheap ammo like PMC, m193, m855 that the shift will be noticed. I personally have seen it not only in my shooting but others shooting at 3gun matches. Even with the cheap Tula ammo, if the pressure was fairly consistent in one direction the average center of the group would show a shift or see even bigger groups. B.S. eh? I know it makes a difference, its proven fact. Since you say youve personally seen it at 3gun matches, tell me. What kind of groups do you shoot at 100yds after running around, out of breath, several one shot every couple seconds, standing, with m193, with free floated handguard vs non floated? I'm curious at what point you will start to see the differences and by how much. |
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I could imagine if you were running around and breathing hard the impact wouldn't show because of your own influences on the rifle based on your condition, but I was thinking more along the lines of in a slow-fire target scenario. I didn't even think to specify that in my first post.
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any thing that puts a stress on the barrel should be avoided, slings, bipod, and etc.. better for you to mount them on your ff guard.
if you want only top rail, troy extreme is good choice, but i find that it's not so great if you want to put more stuff on (like bipod, forward verticle grip and etc).. so when you add the small rail pieces on the tueb, it tends to be not that much savings on weight. i would go over 4 sides rail, but light weight.. i like longer rails because it covers up more barrel and gives me longer iron sight radius. |
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I could imagine if you were running around and breathing hard the impact wouldn't show because of your own influences on the rifle based on your condition, but I was thinking more along the lines of in a slow-fire target scenario. I didn't even think to specify that in my first post. You did specify in your first post for the most part but he quoted 3gun so i was curious. My only point is yes, floated handguards make a difference. BUT, when do they start to make it worth their price? Most dont shoot federal gold medal match out of their beater truck guns, and also dont shoot tula out of their 20" larue stealth. |
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I didnt read the other comments so forgive me if this has been covered. I think the only way your average shooter will notice a difference is if they are shooting match ammo or handloads. If youre only pljnking with 4-5 moa tula then a free float rail aint gonna gain you much.
There is plenty of cheap ammo like PMC, m193, m855 that the shift will be noticed. I personally have seen it not only in my shooting but others shooting at 3gun matches. Even with the cheap Tula ammo, if the pressure was fairly consistent in one direction the average center of the group would show a shift or see even bigger groups. B.S. eh? I know it makes a difference, its proven fact. Since you say youve personally seen it at 3gun matches, tell me. What kind of groups do you shoot at 100yds after running around, out of breath, several one shot every couple seconds, standing, with m193, with free floated handguard vs non floated? I'm curious at what point you will start to see the differences and by how much. ETA - I should have stated earlier that I shoot m193 and PMC exclusively in all my rifles. I also see many shooters use the same. Not every stage leaves you out of breath you know. I can't say I have encountered 100yd shots shooting off hand. I have to say you usually have the option of using some rest/support. I am talking about stages where there isn't really enough movement to cause heavy breathing. I've seen people not hit clays from 25-50yd because they had their barrel touching a rest or they have a non-FF rifle and resting against something. I have seen guys miss at 100yds on LaRues from the same cases. You can see the dirt dance all around the target (feet off if shooting to 300yd) and blow through rounds not making hits, then they get smart shift their position and remove pressure to their barrel and start making hits on target in short order. I have seen guys make hits and then shift and have their barrel touching something or the non-FF HG. Can't say I have seen much change in just hand hold of the HG shooting offhand. Now, stages with running around can only further complicate the problem. |
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I didnt read the other comments so forgive me if this has been covered. I think the only way your average shooter will notice a difference is if they are shooting match ammo or handloads. If youre only pljnking with 4-5 moa tula then a free float rail aint gonna gain you much.
There is plenty of cheap ammo like PMC, m193, m855 that the shift will be noticed. I personally have seen it not only in my shooting but others shooting at 3gun matches. Even with the cheap Tula ammo, if the pressure was fairly consistent in one direction the average center of the group would show a shift or see even bigger groups. B.S. eh? I know it makes a difference, its proven fact. Since you say youve personally seen it at 3gun matches, tell me. What kind of groups do you shoot at 100yds after running around, out of breath, several one shot every couple seconds, standing, with m193, with free floated handguard vs non floated? I'm curious at what point you will start to see the differences and by how much. ETA - I should have stated earlier that I shoot m193 and PMC exclusively in all my rifles. I also see many shooters use the same. Not every stage leaves you out of breath you know. I can't say I have encountered 100yd shots shooting off hand. I have to say you usually have the option of using some rest/support. I am talking about stages where there isn't really enough movement to cause heavy breathing. I've seen people not hit clays from 25-50yd because they had their barrel touching a rest or they have a non-FF rifle and resting against something. I have seen guys miss at 100yds on LaRues from the same cases. You can see the dirt dance all around the target (feet off if shooting to 300yd) and blow through rounds not making hits, then they get smart shift their position and remove pressure to their barrel and start making hits on target in short order. I have seen guys make hits and then shift and have their barrel touching something or the non-FF HG. Can't say I have seen much change in just hand hold of the HG shooting offhand. Now, stages with running around can only further complicate the problem. I dont think we're saying different things, I agree. I have just always thought to an average shooter, money is better spent on other things IF youre just going to be shootin crap ammo(i like tula actually) This is how i read the op's question |
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I've seen differences on paper with my gov profile 14.5 carbine (CMMG) when using the KAC RAS or DD Omega 7.0 from a bipod.
With the DD omega installed, I've been able to grab the front of the rail and the FSB and "without much pressure" make the barrel flex and see the movement between the rail and handguard cap. Pretty amazing! P |
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