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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Unusual problem. Very confused (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 4/2/2012 9:51:49 PM EDT
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Hello all,
I just registered at this site yesterday. I have been having problems recently with my AR-15. I have been unable to find the exact cause of the issues, so I am coming here for advice. My situation is very new and unusual to me. I have never experienced anything like it before. I own a Bushmaster AR-15 in the M16A2 style setup. It has a govt profile M16A2 barrel. I have six 30 round magazined made by brownells, and one 20 round magazine also made by them. All the magazines are never used. The weapon itself has rarely been fired. It is in near perfect condition. I made sure that the weapon was cleaned and properly oiled before loading it. I loaded a 30 round mag with 28 rounds of Federal .223 55 grain FMJ ammo that I bought at Walmart. When I inserted the loaded magazine, I noticed that it required considerable force to ensure that the magazine was locked into the weapon. After that, it was difficult to get my first round into the chamber. The round would barely even leave the magazine 40% of the time. I tried all of my other magazines. The problem did not go away. I tried using Remington .223 as well. The issue remained. Atleast I Know it is not the ammo. The magazines are all of the standard aluminum variety with the light green followers. They look just like the kind I used in service. I did notice a few other odd things. When I inserted an empty magazine into my weapon, it would lock in normally without the need for a lot of force. When the magazine was loaded with only 5 rounds, it still worked fine. But when I used a full 28 rounds, I had a hard time locking the magazine in, and getting rounds to chamber. I tried adjusting the magazine release button both clockwise and counter clockwise of the original position. This did not help at all. The magazines appear to be in normal condition. They are all never used. I ordered the Bushmaster new from the factory, and have barely put any rounds through it. I noticed another thing. When I load a magazine either empty or loaded into the lower only, it locks in just fine. I just have a hard time when I insert a loaded magazine into the assembled rifle. Again, I know it is not the ammo. My guess it is either a problem with the weapon, or every magazine I have is bad. All the magazines were bought together at one retail store by the same manufacturer- Brownells. I have called both Bushmaster, and Brownells. Bushmaster didn't really know what was going on. The brownells guy said I need to get my magazines "tuned." I'm like What? Get them tuned? I did plenty of time in the Corps in Infantry, and have never heard of needing to get magazines "tuned." My next step is to try a different, and more established make of new 30 rd mags that are USGI. If the problem persists, then I will be even more mind boggled. I'll probably see no other option than to send my weapon back to Bushmaster to have them check it out. Anyone have any ideas? By the way, sorry if this question is in the wrong spot. Thanks |
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I may be over simplifying things, but it sounds like new strong magazine springs. What happens when you load 5 or 10 rounds in the magazine, insert the magazine and charge the weapon? With 5 or 10 rounds in the magazine, when the bolt is locked to the rear and a magazine is inserted and the bolt release hit what happens? Yes, I realize they are 30 round magazines, and you want more than 5 or 10 rounds in them, but sometimes new magazine springs have a fair amount of resistance until they are broken in. |
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Break down and clean and relube magazines get all original shipping grease out. See if they are anti tilt/self leveling followers larger ears on both sides not one large one smaller. Sometimes feed lips in mags are very sharp/ have burrs can make them a little sticky.
Brownells does not advertise as having anti tilt followers. They do however proclaim for an entire paragraph of how their mags will never fail... squash the springs a bunch of times to break them in a bit? |
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Ok, will take pics next time I see my Bushmaster.
I really didn't think it was a problem with the weapon since the problem is new, and nothing has really gone wrong with the weapon. Never dropped it or done anything that could have damaged it. I'm just really confused. I really hope all my magazines are bad and that I don't have to send my bushmaster in for repairs. |
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If I was to take a guess, I'll bet the problem is this:
Quoted:
They are all never used. I ordered the Bushmaster new from the factory, and have barely put any rounds through it. Just needs some usage in order for things to get smoothed out. When you attempt to load, are you dropping the bolt from the bolt catch, pulling the charging handle and letting it go, or trying to ride it home? A possibility, although remote, is a problem with the mag catch or the lower receiver that would have the mags sitting a little too high and rubbing on the bottom of the bolt carrier. Another might be drag from the fire control group which can happen because of an out of spec part or tolerance stacking problem. A FCG problem would be noticeable even with no mag in though. I would imagine that any rifle you handled in the armed forces was WELL used, along with the magazines, so operated more smoothly than a brand new rifle will. Brand new rifles usually do better with a generous amount of a lighter weight oil. I'd probably lube it up, cycle the charging handle back and forth by hand a few dozen/hundred times, then see if your problem goes away. Another trick is to take a ruler or dowel rod or something, and compress the magazine springs manually... a few dozen cycles will loosen them up. Run your fingertip over the feed lips to inspect for any burrs, which can be removed with an abrasive stone. |
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Yea, I was really
hoping that it was just new strong magazine springs that are causing the problems. I don't know why empty mags lock into the magazine well normally, and full combat loaded mags require a hefty slap to get them to lock in. I did notice MUCH MUCH more tension loading the mags with ammo than my issued mags in the Corps. Very weird. Also, rounds chamber a little better when the mags are only loaded with like 5 rounds. But fill up the mag, and it doesn't want to work. |
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Should I keep the mags stored and loaded to
the max for a few weeks to help reduce the spring tension? What is a good way to break in the mags besides exercising the spring? I guess I will hunt for some good condition, but well used USGI mags to test with my weapon. If that works, then I know what the problem is. |
Any witness marks on the magazine feed lips? I had a minor issue with new Pmags on a fresh AR build rubbing against the bolt in the clearance grooves. It only happened on brand new Pmags and only when fully loaded. As near as I can gather, the mag springs were strong enough when new to push the feed lips apart enough to barely rub against the bolt. The action was really tight like you describe at first, but it didn't take long for everything to "break in" and function smoothly.
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Thanks for all the great responses guys.
After reading all the posts, I am willing to bet my problem is due to my new, overly strong magazine springs. Hopefully spending some time exercising the springs with a ruler will loosen them up a bit so that they will be good to go. |
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May I ask a question regarding a similar problem?
I have just a few magazines which, for some reason, will easily lock into 1 or 2 of my AR's, but not one or two of the others. It's the strangest thing! * Thinking on it, I should go get them ALL and check them against ALL my weapons - taking note of which ones are giving me problems and setting them aside for inspection. Since I have nothing better to do, I'm going to get on that - right now! Thanks in advance for any suggestions you may be willing/able to offer! ** Good luck to the OP! |
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Quoted:
Thanks for all the great responses guys. After reading all the posts, I am willing to bet my problem is due to my new, overly strong magazine springs. Hopefully spending some time exercising the springs with a ruler will loosen them up a bit so that they will be good to go. You do know that "exercising the springs" is a euphemism for "shooting the crap out of it," don't you? Good! Enjoy! |
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My S&W M&P15 had a similar but not quite as dramatic issue.
After I shot it a little the issue just went away/I got used to bumping the full mag a bit to make sure it seated. I've seen your EXACT same issue with various semiauto pistols, too. The distance between latch and underside of the bolt is of minimal tolerance {not a bad thing unless really too tight for funtion} and everything fits snugger than some other guns. Yes there will be varying tolerances between guns. Use'n it will loose'n it. ...or show you you have a serious problem, which I doubt. In my opinion, having things a little snug at the beginning beats a sloppy-from-the-start condition. As others have said, get out and shoot it and...report! 
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Here's a hint.
Before you load a new mag, pull the charging handle and use the bolt catch to lock the bolt back. Then insert the mag. Then hit the bolt release to close the bolt. I think you are following the charging handle down slowly instead of just releasing it. The momentum of the bolt carrier will more easily strip a round from the mag. |
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Quoted:
Here's a hint. Before you load a new mag, pull the charging handle and use the bolt catch to lock the bolt back. Then insert the mag. Then hit the bolt release to close the bolt. I think you are following the charging handle down slowly instead of just releasing it. The momentum of the bolt carrier will more easily strip a round from the mag. Best answer. Loaded mag means top cartridge is being pressed up against bottom of the carrier. Fully loaded mag means there is a lot of pressure to overcome to get the mag to lock in with the BCG in battery. |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Here's a hint. Before you load a new mag, pull the charging handle and use the bolt catch to lock the bolt back. Then insert the mag. Then hit the bolt release to close the bolt. I think you are following the charging handle down slowly instead of just releasing it. The momentum of the bolt carrier will more easily strip a round from the mag. Best answer. Loaded mag means top cartridge is being pressed up against bottom of the carrier. Fully loaded mag means there is a lot of pressure to overcome to get the mag to lock in with the BCG in battery. Yeah, OP already said that he wasn't riding the charging handle (in his words he was "sling-shotting" the CH). OP, I've owned numerous AR's and numerous mags and I've never once had to "break-in" a magazine (and I've owned just about every type of mag you can own––PMAG's, USGI, modified USGI, Lancer, etc.). I would say something's out of spec with your rifle. I would send the upper back to Bushmaster and then sell it when you get it back. |
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My Bushmaster did the same thing.I simply went to a gunshow and picked up some used adventureline contrct made usgi mags.I think I paid 10 bucks a mag for each 30 rounder... and used those,no more issues.Used colt mags worked as well.bottom of mag should have who made the mag stamped on it.The mags might look the same but it makes a difference.
issue prob just tight mag springs as already mentioned.Try the cheapest easiest fix first before spending a bunch of money. |
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I bought 4 mags from a Gulf War vet at the local public range a month ago.
I shot a few rounds out of each and they seemed to be okay. I paid him his asking price of $5 each, thanked him for his service, and went on my way. Last week one of the mags made it into my shooting bag, and gave me lots of trouble, always with the 2nd from last round. Chalked it up to a burr on the feedlip. Rubbed it for a minute with a diamond file, marked it with an X for testing. This week, a different GI mag malfunctioned in the same manner. My public range has a 3 round limit. First round runs fine, 2nd round (2nd from last in the mag) sometimes feeds, sometimes gets pushed down into the mag. Note that if I insert the mag with the bolt closed, the BCG pushes the rounds into the mag and even though 3rd from last feeds fine, 2nd from last NEVER feeds right. Of course it takes a lot more pressure to insert the mag if it has to compress the mag spring... with the bolt held open, they "snick" right in. The fix of course is $2/ea. Magpul anti-tilt followers. No more problems. Now the mags cost me $7/ea. total. Joe |
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I think a Pmag might help to identify the problem. While they are not perfect mags, PMags do seem to have much lower variances than metal mags. I think a big part of that is that the polymer is a lot slicker than the sharp feed lip edges in new metal mags. |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
I think a Pmag might help to identify the problem. While they are not perfect mags, PMags do seem to have much lower variances than metal mags. I think a big part of that is that the polymer is a lot slicker than the sharp feed lip edges in new metal mags. Yep. That and polymer will "wear in" a lot faster than steel if there is any rubbing. |
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Quoted:
I bought 4 mags from a Gulf War vet at the local public range a month ago. I shot a few rounds out of each and they seemed to be okay. I paid him his asking price of $5 each, thanked him for his service, and went on my way. Last week one of the mags made it into my shooting bag, and gave me lots of trouble, always with the 2nd from last round. Chalked it up to a burr on the feedlip. Rubbed it for a minute with a diamond file, marked it with an X for testing. This week, a different GI mag malfunctioned in the same manner. My public range has a 3 round limit. First round runs fine, 2nd round (2nd from last in the mag) sometimes feeds, sometimes gets pushed down into the mag. Note that if I insert the mag with the bolt closed, the BCG pushes the rounds into the mag and even though 3rd from last feeds fine, 2nd from last NEVER feeds right. Of course it takes a lot more pressure to insert the mag if it has to compress the mag spring... with the bolt held open, they "snick" right in. The fix of course is $2/ea. Magpul anti-tilt followers. No more problems. Now the mags cost me $7/ea. total. Joe +1 like i said clean them out and see if they are anti tilt followers |
| Someone mentioned it.. dont try to ride it home with the charging handle either. Let it slap home. Sounds like strong mag springs for sure... I have the CS brownells mags and they are good to go... anyone know if this might be the stainless springs? maybe they are stiffer? |
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Ok everyone, this is an update.
I bought a new Magpul PMAG today. I loaded it with 28 rounds of Federal .223 55 grain FMJ. I inserted it. Unlike my previous Brownell mags, it locked in no problem. I slingshotted the charging handle, it chambered the round perfectly. I cycled the action until the magazine and weapon was empty of rounds. It worked flawlessly. I reloaded and repeated each of these steps several times. Never had a problem with the PMAG. I decided to give my other Brownell aluminum magazine a try again with another 28 rounds. When doing this whole process with the Brownell aluminum magazine, I experienced a failure to feed 2 out of three times. This confirms for me that it was a magazine problem, and not the weapon or ammo. Those Brownell magazines looked identical to my military issue magazines. I bought them new. All 7 of my brownell magazines had the same problem. I'm never buying anything from that company ever again. Especially not M16 magazines. Sheesh! |
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I have just looked at a pretty detailed review of pmags
versus USGI mags. I've also heard many good things about PMAG from people here, and people I know in real life. I'm very impressed with PMAG. I plan on buying many many more. One question. Does PMAG fit into USGI magazine pouches? |
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Not very well. I mean, it'll fit into the pouch, but it can sometimes have problems with the pouch closing. Don't plan on putting 2 Pmags into a double-mag pouch.
Unless you go for the E-mags, kind of a skinny version of the Pmag. They might squeeze in better. Like others have said, don't knock Brownell's mags til you use them a bit. Also give the Bushie a chance to really shoot and see how things progress. |
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I've never had problems with brownells' magazines.
1) Lock bolt back. 2) Insert loaded 30rd magazine.. Should just click into place. If it does not, magazine or mag well is out of spec. 3) Drop bolt using bolt release. If round does not full chamber, it's either a very stiff spring, or a weak buffer spring, or a tight everything, or an underlubricated everything. I have had hard times inserting loaded magazines into a closed bolt. Have to insert it pretty hard to get it past the mag spring. |
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Yes, the bushmaster is brand new, barely used.
I doubt the magazine well is out of spec. Bushmaster makes some of the highest quality mil-spec ARs civilians can buy. The PMAG had no problem where the Brownells did. All seven of my brand new Brownell magazines had the exact same problem. Personally, I don't agree that Brownell mags are good quality. Then again, I paid a good amount of money for all those Brownell magazines. I will continue to test using other USGI magazines. See what I can learn. |
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This may be a stupid question and people may think it odd to even ask....
But are you sure they are 5.56 mags and not 5.45x39 mags? Maybe they shipped the wrong ones? It would clear up the 5.56 fitting so tight. It would be something to eliminate. 1 mag being bad I can understand. All 7? Slim chance. |
| Anyone can make a bad product at times. Brownells may have let some mags slip through QC. Or maybe the Bushmaster is slightly out of spec or on the edge on spec. Brownells seems to be decent IMO. Maybe see if they will take the mags back or exchange them for pmags? |
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Ok, I have just done some more tests.
The results are very disturbing to me. I have to take back what I said about the brownell mags. Not only did I buy a PMAG today, I also bought a used USGI Center Industries magazine. I looked at the Center Industries mag, and it looks USGI. It says "Government use only" on the aluminum body. I loaded this magazine with 28 rounds, just like the rest of the mags. The EXACT same problem occurred that happened with all my Brownells. Apparently PMAG is the only type that will not cause my AR any problems. I don't want to rely on only one brand of magazine. I want to be able to use USGI mags in my AR. What is the problem??? I'm starting to feel that the dark truth is that there is a problem with my Bushmaster. I guess I will call them in the morning and see what they think I should do. This is very upsetting news. Any advice? |
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The thing is I have never had these problems with my plain jane issued magazines
and service weapon. The problem is only now with my store bought mags and Bushmaster. If the magazines and AR are mil-spec, then I should not need followers. There is something deeper here. I am getting the feeling that I will have to send my AR in to bushmaster to have their tech team look at. Hopefully they can fix the problem. Anyone have any idea how long it would take to get my AR back once I send it in? |
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Quoted:
The thing is I have never had these problems with my plain jane issued magazines and service weapon. The problem is only now with my store bought mags and Bushmaster. If the magazines and AR are mil-spec, then I should not need followers. There is something deeper here. I am getting the feeling that I will have to send my AR in to bushmaster to have their tech team look at. Hopefully they can fix the problem. Anyone have any idea how long it would take to get my AR back once I send it in? Do you know anybody else with an AR that you can try those mags in? Being stuck with magpul is not a bad thing. In fact many, including me, use nothing but magpul. |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
The thing is I have never had these problems with my plain jane issued magazines and service weapon. The problem is only now with my store bought mags and Bushmaster. If the magazines and AR are mil-spec, then I should not need followers. There is something deeper here. I am getting the feeling that I will have to send my AR in to bushmaster to have their tech team look at. Hopefully they can fix the problem. Anyone have any idea how long it would take to get my AR back once I send it in? Do you know anybody else with an AR that you can try those mags in? Being stuck with magpul is not a bad thing. In fact many, including me, use nothing but magpul. I don't know anyone else with an AR. I don't mind Magpul. The PMAGs are great magazines. But if there is some small defect with my weapon that is causing it to have problems with USGI magazines, I want it fixed. I don't purchase firearms as decor for my house, or for fun at the range. Every gun I own is a tool for a specific purpose. To defend myself and my loved ones. I'm not going to rely on a weapon in a combat situation that has any defect with it. I'm definitely gonna get it checked out ASAP. |
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Loaded mags can be quite difficult to lock in place, especially when new and with very stiff springs. The reason it didn't do the same when unattached to the upper, is that the difficult part of it is that the top round in the mag pushes against the bottom of the carrier, and thus you must further depress the spring to lock the mag in place. Without the upper attached, there is nothing for the top round in the mag to push against. This also explains why it wasn't hard with an un-loaded or barely loaded mag.
This has been my experience with both USGI mags and Lancers when I have loaded them to a full 30 rounds. Down-load those same mags to 27 or 28 and it becomes easier to lock the mag in. Pmags, from what I understand, were designed with this in mind, and have extra spring travel to accommodate the need for a little more when inserting the fully-loaded mag on a closed bolt. I also heard(somewhere on ARFCOM) that the AR and it's mags were/is designed to be loaded on an open bolt. Whether that is factual or not, I don't know, and I load on a closed bolt all the time. It sounds to me, like nothing is wrong with your gun, but simply that you are using new/unused mags in a relatively new/unused rifle and everything is a bit tight right now. Things should loosen up comfortably with use, and once those mag springs and feed lips get worked in a little bit, they should be easier to lock in and strip rounds from, but keep in mind that it may still require a good push to lock in place when loaded up, and this is normal. Good luck. |
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Anyone know where I can get several new PMAGs and corresponding pouches? I use the old vietnam era 782 gear. You know, the cartridge belt, H-harness with alligator clips. DSG Arms has a set of 5 pmags and 2 of their Alpha M4 mag pouches. Probably not exactly what your looking for but its a start. |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Unusual problem. Very confused (Page 1 of 2)
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