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Posted: 5/10/2011 6:00:33 AM EDT
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I've recently been reading around other forums that the use of buffers heavier than H; namely in mid-length carbines,
reduces reliability in dirty/dry conditions. Have any of you found there to be any truth to this? |
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Heavy buffers are to slow dwell time, it all depends on the size of your gas port. The heavy buffers were origionaly designed for carbine gas systems, which are a lot more "robust" than rifle lenth gas systems.
I don't currently own a mid-lenght, but that suprisses me that they would use a "H" buffer. I have a MK18 with standard gas ports and I am running a carbine buffer in it for Wolf ammo. |
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I have never heard about this, but running through the physics in my head....
a heavy buffer increases the intertia of the entire system, thereby slowing the its movement. By adding dirt to the system, you increase the friction of the system which also slows it down. If you slow the system down too much, you could cause it to halt before completing the full travel of the cycle. If its dirty enough, I suppose it could seize the whole thing. Otherwise it may just short stroke causing FTE/FTF. But I can't comment on whether people have had this happen or not. |
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It all depends on your gas port size and ammo used.
For example, TheMercenary's MK18, if LMT, has an undersized gas port and runs great on underpowered wolf & CAR buffer. If it chokes on Wolf & an H buffer, it would probably run fine again on full power M855 and an H buffer. I run a ST-T2 and H3 in my LMT 14.5" carbine and it runs like a top, very soft recoil! You have to find that sweet spot with your rifle. I like to see how heavy of a buffer I can use with Wolf ammo and get 4 o'clock ejection, that way I know it'll be 100% on all ammo. I've yet to have a failure of any sort with any of my rifles using this method. YMMV. |
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As with most things and as with most people, "if a little is good then a lot more is a lot better."
Clearly this isn't true. The fascination with tinkering with things to either improve or personalize is a blessing and a curse. Like medicine, depending on the dose it is either a medicine or a poison. I am of the opinion that the "heavy" buffers and/or extra power springs can and do reach a point of limiting proper function. So, I'd answer the question with a "yes" though I personally have no experience with this. It is only physics. Bill |
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Quoted: It all depends on your gas port size and ammo used. For example, TheMercenary's MK18, if LMT, has an undersized gas port and runs great on underpowered wolf & CAR buffer. If it chokes on Wolf & an H buffer, it would probably run fine again on full power M855 and an H buffer. I run a ST-T2 and H3 in my LMT 14.5" carbine and it runs like a top, very soft recoil! You have to find that sweet spot with your rifle. I like to see how heavy of a buffer I can use with Wolf ammo and get 4 o'clock ejection, that way I know it'll be 100% on all ammo. I've yet to have a failure of any sort with any of my rifles using this method. YMMV. ^^THIS^^  |
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Quoted:
I've recently been reading around other forums that the use of buffers heavier than H; namely in mid-length carbines, reduces reliability in dirty/dry conditions. Have any of you found there to be any truth to this? Lube it, and it will run. No matter how dirty it gets, just don't let it get dry, and you will be fine. Read Mike Pannones's artical on this subject on Defence Review.com. Really a well written bit on this subject by someone who actually tested it. Being mid-length makes no difference, they all need lube. I carry two of the little oil bottls of Machine Gunner's lube in the tubes of my LMT SOPMOD stock, so I've always got some lube on the gun...just an idea. |
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I cant answer your question for sure or not.. It sounds correct though... A dirty gun (aka more friction at contact surfacs) wil suffer from the extra weight. I buy that.
I use h1 or Car buffers. I have one h2 for a kitty kat build. Those H1's were homemade (yeah, you can weight your own) I treat my guns different that many of you. Dry with a very very fine wipedown of LSA ona few select parts. Cleaning is minimal. Chamber brush and a few bore swabs is the most I give it unless its just been a day of spray fire. Procedure is the same for M16's and AR-15's. Ive ran across a few guys before that claimed the "had" to use 9mm buffers because nothing else would work. They even used the term "rate of fire" to justify it. I dont believe that at all. |
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Quoted:
hot Scroll down to the picture of the BCG and start reading there. You'll learn a ton about buffers, springs, etc. |
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Quoted:
One of my 14.5" blls has a .072" gas vent (way over-sized, a standard sized vent is .062" for a carbine length gas system), and I need to run an H3 buffer and extra power action spring just to
Quoted:
In a 16 or just 15s?
Ive ran across a few guys before that claimed the "had" to use 9mm buffers because nothing else would work. They even used the term "rate of fire" to justify it. I dont believe that at all. keep my rifle from beating itself to death, but it does run 100%...now. The reason I haven't just sent the barrel back is because it really shoots with 77 gr. SMK's. Otherwise, it would have been gone a long time ago. |
| I have an MRP DI upper with 16" mid length system. I have used CAR, H2, 9mm, and VLTOR A5 with 4.5, 5.3, and 6.1 buffers. It has ran and ran well with all of them. The 6.1 buffer is the softest shooting of them all, with the H2 being a close second. I had no issues related to the buffers. I had issues (bolt lockback) when trying to use a BAD lever or it's competitors with various buffers. I have since taken the levers off and don't see myself going back to them. As stated, experiment and find what works best for your rifle and how you want it to feel. |
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Quoted:
It all depends on your gas port size and ammo used. For example, TheMercenary's MK18, if LMT, has an undersized gas port and runs great on underpowered wolf & CAR buffer. If it chokes on Wolf & an H buffer, it would probably run fine again on full power M855 and an H buffer. I run a ST-T2 and H3 in my LMT 14.5" carbine and it runs like a top, very soft recoil! You have to find that sweet spot with your rifle. I like to see how heavy of a buffer I can use with Wolf ammo and get 4 o'clock ejection, that way I know it'll be 100% on all ammo. I've yet to have a failure of any sort with any of my rifles using this method. YMMV. Spot on! |
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It is all about tuning. There is so much variation between rifles and ammunition that I don't think a general statement of "H# buffer decreases reliability."
The way I see it: The reloading cycle has many stages. Each with certain concerns. Simplified we have the carrier traveling rearward and then forward. On the rearward travel force is created in relation to the ammo and the size of the gas system. To have a reliability in this motion we must get enough reward travel to prevent short stroking in all conditions. If the reciprocating assembly is too massive and/or there is too much spring force in proportion to the applied force there will not be enough travel. If the reciprocating assembly is small in mass and/or the recoil spring is weak then the reciprocating assembly will beat the end of the buffer tube causing an increase of felt recoil. To have reliability in this motion the mass of the carrier and buffer and the force of the recoil spring should be tuned to the amount of force which the gas system can provide due to the size of the system and the ammunition used to ensure enough rearward travel under all conditions while not resulting in excessive felt recoil. The forward travel of the carrier group is primarily a function of force stored in the spring from the rearward travel. To have reliability in this motion we must have enough spring force and mass to move the reciprocating assembly forward, strip a round, chamber, and lock the lugs. Having a weak spring and/or low mass will cause issues with any of the jobs that the assembly has to provide on the forward motion. Having too much spring force and/or mass will cause increase in felt recoil. There is also the issue of bolt bounce which must be tuned for as well. So here again, the system must be tuned to provide reliable loading without causing excessive felt recoil as the assembly slams into battery. Weak ammo and/or gas system (small port) would benefit from a lighter reciprocating mass and/or weaker recoil spring. Strong ammo and/or gas system (overgassy) would benefit from heavier reciprocating mass and/or stronger recoil spring. I think that each of those situations have its merits. For competition use a lighter reciprocating mass with a tunable gas system tuned to specific ammunition would probably benefit. For defensive/duty weapons a stronger gas system and more mass will probably ensure a greater safety margin with more reliability in all conditions regardless of ammunition. So it all comes down to tuning for specific rifles, ammunition, and situations. Where one setup may be optimal doesn't mean that it will be optimal on another setup. Where an H9000 buffer will work on one rifle it probably wont work an another. For my primary rifle it happens to be an overgassed middy. I run a full weight carrier, ST-T2, and a Springco Red. Functions 100% with all of the ammo I have tried whether the rifle is muddy with weak ammo or clean will full power ammo. |
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Quoted: It all depends on your gas port size and ammo used. For example, TheMercenary's MK18, if LMT, has an undersized gas port and runs great on underpowered wolf & CAR buffer. If it chokes on Wolf & an H buffer, it would probably run fine again on full power M855 and an H buffer. I run a ST-T2 and H3 in my LMT 14.5" carbine and it runs like a top, very soft recoil! You have to find that sweet spot with your rifle. I like to see how heavy of a buffer I can use with Wolf ammo and get 4 o'clock ejection, that way I know it'll be 100% on all ammo. I've yet to have a failure of any sort with any of my rifles using this method. YMMV. This is good advice. My BCM 14.5" carbine gas short-stroked after getting dirty (around 600 rounds in a day of an EAG carbine class) with an H buffer and a Tubb's extra power flat wire spring. Replacing the spring with a standard carbine spring made it work just fine. It also works fine with a standard carbine spring and an H2 buffer. My Bushmaster gas piston was horribly overgassed. It has an H2 buffer and a Tubb's extra power flat wire spring and it still ejects at 2-3 o'clock. I'm guessing I could run an H3 in there or another heavier buffer if I wanted to. I'm going to guess the gas port is too big (it is a Bushmaster and that's common place with them) and it's a piston which cycles faster, in general. Experiment with what you have, see what works best. |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
In a 16 or just 15s?
Ive ran across a few guys before that claimed the "had" to use 9mm buffers because nothing else would work. They even used the term "rate of fire" to justify it. I dont believe that at all. It was involving ar15's of some rollmark. If the statement were true someone was very wrong with the gun. |
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Originally Posted By 99merckx One of my 14.5" blls has a .072" gas vent (way over-sized, a standard sized vent is .062" for a carbine length gas system), and I need to run an H3 buffer and extra power action spring just to keep my rifle from beating itself to death, but it does run 100%...now. The reason I haven't just sent the barrel back is because it really shoots with 77 gr. SMK's. Otherwise, it would have been gone a long time ago. Copy you need a heavy buffer for a fucked gun, I get it as I have one of those also, it still doesn't address the ROF. Jhud addressed what I was thinking, ROF is N/A in 15s and if that excuse is used for 15s, then the person is using the wrong terms, or is stupid. |
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