AR Sponsor
Posted: 4/13/2011 4:20:16 PM EDT
| I am a newb but have been reading and researching for the last 2 months. I built my first lower this week (PSA lower and Lower Build Kit) and just purchased a Spikes 16" LE Lightweight upper. My plan was to shoot this thing with iron sights for a while and buy a scope and mount to use for longer ranges. The concern I have is how accurate is this rifle going to be with a good optic at 100 & 200 yards. I know ammo has a lot to do with it but lets say I have the perfect ammo, is it likely that I could get a 3 shot 1" group at 100 yards and maybe a 3" group at 200 yards? I would be completely disappointed if I couldnn't get any better than a 2" group with a good optic and correct ammo at 100 yards. I would like this to be an all around performer including some varmint hunting but am starting to think i should have bought something like a RRA Coyote or ATH upper because accuracy is pretty much guaranteed even though it will be a little heavier. Anybody have any advise? THanks |
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I wont throw out numbers, but my Spikes with a MOE forend outshot my freefloating BCM last Sunday. I will say an inch group at 100yds is a lot to ask from an AR that isnt setup for it. Think stainless barrels, freefloated tubes, NF optics and more importantly a good trigger. MOA with a stock AR trigger is short of an impossible feat. |
| Most folks have been reporting pretty good accuracy out of the spikes uppers. I'd expect somewhere between 1 and 2 moa, with a lot of it depending on things other than the upper. Ammo (and just shooting good ammo doesn't mean your particular rifle likes that particular good ammo), you, the trigger, your rest, your aiming system, your target (if it's hard to be sure you're lined up the exact same every time it's tough to shoot small groups) and weather conditions. MOA with non specialized AR's is not exactly simple. it happens, it's perfectly doable, but you could have a perfect barrel and still fail to achieve sub moa results even with good ammo. |
| A stock rifle with good ammo, a good optic, and a good shooter can probably shoot 1.5 MOA without too much of a problem. It seems to me that right at about the 1.5-2 MOA point, the cost/accuracy ratio goes way up. If you want less than 1.5 MOA out of an AR, expect to drop a few hundred in a nice trigger, a nice barrel, and match ammo. |
| Thanks for the comments guys. I really hope this thing turns out to be as accurate as i hope. I was hoping you guys would either say it will shoot groups as small as the shooter is capable or that it is going to be no better than 2" to make my decision easier. If it is not going to do what I want it to i would rather sell it before I shoot it to recover my investmet instead of selling it as used with 20 rounds fired. |
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Thanks for the comments guys. I really hope this thing turns out to be as accurate as i hope. I was hoping you guys would either say it will shoot groups as small as the shooter is capable or that it is going to be no better than 2" to make my decision easier. If it is not going to do what I want it to i would rather sell it before I shoot it to recover my investmet instead of selling it as used with 20 rounds fired. if you want sub MOA your going to have to get a nicer rifle. i love spikes i have the M4LE and its great but it is no target/competition rifle. the rifles that can go sub MOA are very expensive and designed for that reason |
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Quoted: Thanks for the comments guys. I really hope this thing turns out to be as accurate as i hope. I was hoping you guys would either say it will shoot groups as small as the shooter is capable or that it is going to be no better than 2" to make my decision easier. If it is not going to do what I want it to i would rather sell it before I shoot it to recover my investmet instead of selling it as used with 20 rounds fired. I am happy if I get a rifle in the type of configuration youre getting to shoot 2" groups at 100yds. Especially with factory .223 or 5.56 ammo, the good stuff, and all. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Thanks for the comments guys. I really hope this thing turns out to be as accurate as i hope. I was hoping you guys would either say it will shoot groups as small as the shooter is capable or that it is going to be no better than 2" to make my decision easier. If it is not going to do what I want it to i would rather sell it before I shoot it to recover my investmet instead of selling it as used with 20 rounds fired. I am happy if I get a rifle in the type of configuration youre getting to shoot 2" groups at 100yds. Especially with factory .223 or 5.56 ammo, the good stuff, and all. Most rifles like that will shoot 2MOA with handloads. Despite what most internet shooters say, getting a rifle to consistently shoot 1MOA in ten shot groups is not easy. IF you just want to see your rifle shoot a three shot group at 1MOA once or twice, I'm sure it will do that. But don't expect 1MOA with less than a dollar and a half per round factory ammo, and with a decent magnified optic.
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Thanks for the comments guys. I really hope this thing turns out to be as accurate as i hope. I was hoping you guys would either say it will shoot groups as small as the shooter is capable or that it is going to be no better than 2" to make my decision easier. If it is not going to do what I want it to i would rather sell it before I shoot it to recover my investmet instead of selling it as used with 20 rounds fired. I am happy if I get a rifle in the type of configuration youre getting to shoot 2" groups at 100yds. Especially with factory .223 or 5.56 ammo, the good stuff, and all. Most rifles like that will shoot 2MOA with handloads. Despite what most internet shooters say, getting a rifle to consistently shoot 1MOA in ten shot groups is not easy. IF you just want to see your rifle shoot a three shot group at 1MOA once or twice, I'm sure it will do that. But don't expect 1MOA with less than a dollar and a half per round factory ammo, and with a decent magnified optic. im happy with using the M4 target at 27.33 yrds and getting a 3 shot group in the chest, that imo is battle ready |
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Thanks for the comments guys. I really hope this thing turns out to be as accurate as i hope. I was hoping you guys would either say it will shoot groups as small as the shooter is capable or that it is going to be no better than 2" to make my decision easier. If it is not going to do what I want it to i would rather sell it before I shoot it to recover my investmet instead of selling it as used with 20 rounds fired. You probably answered your own question there. With the right ammo/shooter/conditions you are probably looking at a rifle that will consistently shoot 1.5 inches at 100 yards, but 2 inches would not be considered unacceptable for that set up. If you really want an MOA gun, you would be better served setting up something else. |
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Thanks for the comments guys. I really hope this thing turns out to be as accurate as i hope. I was hoping you guys would either say it will shoot groups as small as the shooter is capable or that it is going to be no better than 2" to make my decision easier. If it is not going to do what I want it to i would rather sell it before I shoot it to recover my investmet instead of selling it as used with 20 rounds fired. if you want sub MOA your going to have to get a nicer rifle. i love spikes i have the M4LE and its great but it is no target/competition rifle. the rifles that can go sub MOA are very expensive and designed for that reason Yeah, like a factory DPMS or Oly wth a trigger upgrade. 
Seriously, sub MOA is not that hard to achieve with an AR, especially with a decent stainless barrel. You do not have to sink a ton of money into high end gear to get there. |
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If I was looking for a precision rig, I'd pick up a LaRue PredatAR. The Spike's rifle will be more than combat accurate but it is not designed to be a precision rifle. If you want to shoot pretty groups out of the box, you'll have to spend a lot more money or you'll want to look at different rifles besides AR15s. |
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What you have is a light, handy carbine that is probably 3 times more accurate than it needs to be for combat from 0-300 + meters. If you want to consistently shoot MOA, you need a different rifle.
I would work on buying/building a second precision type upper with a match stainless barrel, free float handguard, etc. |
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Most folks have been reporting pretty good accuracy out of the spikes uppers. I'd expect somewhere between 1 and 2 moa, with a lot of it depending on things other than the upper. Ammo (and just shooting good ammo doesn't mean your particular rifle likes that particular good ammo), you, the trigger, your rest, your aiming system, your target (if it's hard to be sure you're lined up the exact same every time it's tough to shoot small groups) and weather conditions. MOA with non specialized AR's is not exactly simple. it happens, it's perfectly doable, but you could have a perfect barrel and still fail to achieve sub moa results even with good ammo. The number 1 reason for less than desirable accuracy in most AR's... |
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If you want a fast car, buy a Corvette, not a Silverado. After two months of research you shouldn't be surprised that you now own a Silverado. This is stil a great vehicle and one that I like. As accurate as the AR is, there is still a limit on what any one should expect from it. Lets face it, it was always intended to be a mass produced weapon for the military. If your looking to put holes in a nickel everytime at 300 yards there are better choices out there. |
| Unless you're an experienced marksman who can reliably shoot sub moa with other rifles why do you expect something else from an AR? If you do your part and use the appropriate ammo and optics, I would be pretty confident the Spikes will shoot as well as you're asking for. All three of the AR's I regularly shoot will turn in results like that reliably. One's a SW MP15, one's a home build with a BCM SS410 middy barrel and the last is a Del-Ton standard weight upper with free float handguards. I listed them from most accurate to least, but the total performance range is still within the 1-2moa window you want. Not always with mil-surp ammo, but with my handloads and better factory ammo all three have no trouble being under 2moa. I've got no reason to doubt the spikes will be the same. |
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Quoted: Unless you're an experienced marksman who can reliably shoot sub moa with other rifles why do you expect something else from an AR? If you do your part and use the appropriate ammo and optics, I would be pretty confident the Spikes will shoot as well as you're asking for. All three of the AR's I regularly shoot will turn in results like that reliably. One's a SW MP15, one's a home build with a BCM SS410 middy barrel and the last is a Del-Ton standard weight upper with free float handguards. I listed them from most accurate to least, but the total performance range is still within the 1-2moa window you want. Not always with mil-surp ammo, but with my handloads and better factory ammo all three have no trouble being under 2moa. I've got no reason to doubt the spikes will be the same. What size groups are you shooting? Anyone can get lucky with a 3 shot group. Shoot 10 shot groups and I'm willing to bet you won't see nearly any of them under 1 MOA. Not that that is bad. The guns are not designed to shoot under 1 MOA. Especially not with military surplus. NEVER with military surplus should be what you're saying. No mil-surp ammo is 1MOA accurate shot out of any gun in the world. If you cherry-pick a nice 3 shot group, that's luck. That is not an accurate gauge of the accuracy of the rifle or the ammo. You need to do at least 10 round groups to show the actual accuracy of the ammo and rifle. |
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Unless you're an experienced marksman who can reliably shoot sub moa with other rifles why do you expect something else from an AR? If you do your part and use the appropriate ammo and optics, I would be pretty confident the Spikes will shoot as well as you're asking for. All three of the AR's I regularly shoot will turn in results like that reliably. One's a SW MP15, one's a home build with a BCM SS410 middy barrel and the last is a Del-Ton standard weight upper with free float handguards. I listed them from most accurate to least, but the total performance range is still within the 1-2moa window you want. Not always with mil-surp ammo, but with my handloads and better factory ammo all three have no trouble being under 2moa. I've got no reason to doubt the spikes will be the same. What size groups are you shooting? Anyone can get lucky with a 3 shot group. Shoot 10 shot groups and I'm willing to bet you won't see nearly any of them under 1 MOA. Not that that is bad. The guns are not designed to shoot under 1 MOA. Especially not with military surplus. NEVER with military surplus should be what you're saying. No mil-surp ammo is 1MOA accurate shot out of any gun in the world. If you cherry-pick a nice 3 shot group, that's luck. That is not an accurate gauge of the accuracy of the rifle or the ammo. You need to do at least 10 round groups to show the actual accuracy of the ammo and rifle. Actually, I do ten round groups, and with the Smith and Wesson and ONE particular handload I get consistent 0.8moa. I was kind of shocked, especially since the preferred bullet is the sierra game king 55gr hpbt. I've have groups as small as 0.53, but they weren't the full ten rounds, usually 5 or 6 and I stopped while I was ahead for the pretty cluster. The BCM barrel has an FSC556 comp and is very consistent but the best I can get out of it reliably is 1.25, I still consider it pretty good and have no complaints. I do wonder if the comp is hurting it a bit, but not enough to spend the money to remove it since in CT it has to be pinned and I'd have to have a thread protector pinned in its place to be legal.  On the other hand, I'm a better than average shooter when it comes to precision at these closer ranges. I don't have the training and experience for really long range stuff, but at 100 or 200 I'm all set. It is also very much dependent on the ammo. That MP15 does NOT like a lot of ammo. Groups quickly jump to 1.5, 1.7... and even over 2 with some factory stuff and handloads it doesn't like. I've got a few other loads that are close to moa but not quite, at least not reliably, but the BCM doesn't like them as much so I stick with the game king load for the most part. I'm still hoping to find something that both rifles will shoot MOA, or even just over that. Right now it's closer to 1.5moa with the bcm and the game king load, occasionally smaller, but it's not the load it'll do 1.25 with. The MP15 doesn't like that load though, barely keeps it inside 2moa, which for that rifle is pretty lousy. To clarify the third rifle, the Del-Ton belongs to my buddy, I shoot it regularly but it's not one I do load development on, just the occasional test run of something to see how it likes it. It'll do a load using Hornady V-Max 60grains into 1.5moa pretty consistently so that's usually what I load up for him when he asks for accurate stuff. My rifles don't like it at all and barely get under 2moa with it, and that's usually considered a very accurate bullet. I've tried .2grain steps from start to just over the book's max with three different powders. At that point my wallet made me stop.
No mistake, my S&W is more accurate than I had any right to expect, the BCM and Del-Ton are about normal though, in my opinion. I haven't done extensive testing with the del-ton, but enough to know it's perfectly capable of under 2moa with the right ammo. I think a lot of people shoot a few different loads from half assed rests and without consideration for the wind conditions and then take that as a reliable indication of what the rifle's capable of. It's not that simple. If all I'd shot for ammo was Black Hills, Hornady Match and Prvi Match along with some M193 I'd think all my AR's were 2-2.5moa, with maybe a 1.5-1.75 out of the S&W using the black hills. 90% of the loads I've tried were over 1.5moa but under 2.5, and all the "good" ammo and handloads using match or hunting grade bullets were 2.0 and under. Hell, the Prvi Partisan so called "Match" ammo turned in 2.35 for ten round groups using both the 69 and 75 grain loads. I stopped measuring after that, but I used both ammos for a while for plinking and that's pretty much what I got every time. Prvi M193 was 2.5-3moa and is about on par with most of the other M193 loads I've used. This is out of the S&W, I pretty much started with handloads for the BCM barrel, starting with the loads the S&W liked. Basically, I'm agreeing, with mil-surp ammo you're not going to get small groups without a lot of luck somewhere along the line. The ammo isn't consistent enough for it. With decent factory ammo there's no reason not to expect better and with good handloads that the rifle likes there's no reason you can't get down around 1.5 with most AR's. The problem is that you might go through every factory loading and never find one your AR likes that much. Heck, if I'd stuck to the match grade loads and bullets I'd never have gotten sub moa out of my S&W, everything else is a good step backwards. My BCM isn't as accurate but has something almost as important to me, consistency. It'll put nearly any ammo into under 2moa. I'm not sure I ever shot groups with M193 but I might have to do that next time my buddy's at the range with me. I don't have any left other than my preps storage and I don't want to open a battle pack to fire ten or twenty rounds. 
I think there's a bit of an over reaction to all the couch commandos who claim consistent sub moa with everything, a lot of us basically respond by going the other direction when folks ask about accuracy with an AR. I think part of it is wanting to avoid claiming something and then having the person come back saying we were wrong. If we say it's not going to be that good and it is, they're happy and proud instead of ticked off if we said it would be better than they get. Personally, I get the results I get and stand by them. They're not spectacular, sometimes they're downright funny. I grew up shooting benchrest rifles with a grandfather who did quite well at it and was a good teacher. From there I went to competing in two and three position small bore competition in HS and a bit in college before life got too busy. I'm used to thinking in terms of tiny little groups, where it darn well better be one not so ragged hole if you want to be competitive. For me, AR's were quite the step back from that and I think that kept me working at it and trying different things. I'm still not convinced I can't improve on the results I've gotten, I am just convinced my wallet is starting to cry about all the reloading components just for testing. Who knows, maybe this summer I'll try a different line of powders and the BCM will suddenly be sub MOA and the S&W will be lucky to get under 2moa with it. |
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I shot a 1/2 inch 5 shot group at 50 yards once, with a 10x scope and American Eagle ammo (kinda cheap). Rifle was a Colt Match Target M4 MT6400c...just a 16 inch chrome lined barrel.
I know it's capable of shooting close to 1moa pretty consistently...but I am not that good. |
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Unless you're an experienced marksman who can reliably shoot sub moa with other rifles why do you expect something else from an AR? If you do your part and use the appropriate ammo and optics, I would be pretty confident the Spikes will shoot as well as you're asking for. All three of the AR's I regularly shoot will turn in results like that reliably. One's a SW MP15, one's a home build with a BCM SS410 middy barrel and the last is a Del-Ton standard weight upper with free float handguards. I listed them from most accurate to least, but the total performance range is still within the 1-2moa window you want. Not always with mil-surp ammo, but with my handloads and better factory ammo all three have no trouble being under 2moa. I've got no reason to doubt the spikes will be the same. What size groups are you shooting? Anyone can get lucky with a 3 shot group. Shoot 10 shot groups and I'm willing to bet you won't see nearly any of them under 1 MOA. Not that that is bad. The guns are not designed to shoot under 1 MOA. Especially not with military surplus. NEVER with military surplus should be what you're saying. No mil-surp ammo is 1MOA accurate shot out of any gun in the world. If you cherry-pick a nice 3 shot group, that's luck. That is not an accurate gauge of the accuracy of the rifle or the ammo. You need to do at least 10 round groups to show the actual accuracy of the ammo and rifle. Actually, I do ten round groups, and with the Smith and Wesson and ONE particular handload I get consistent 0.8moa. I was kind of shocked, especially since the preferred bullet is the sierra game king 55gr hpbt. I've have groups as small as 0.53, but they weren't the full ten rounds, usually 5 or 6 and I stopped while I was ahead for the pretty cluster. The BCM barrel has an FSC556 comp and is very consistent but the best I can get out of it reliably is 1.25, I still consider it pretty good and have no complaints. I do wonder if the comp is hurting it a bit, but not enough to spend the money to remove it since in CT it has to be pinned and I'd have to have a thread protector pinned in its place to be legal. On the other hand, I'm a better than average shooter when it comes to precision at these closer ranges. I don't have the training and experience for really long range stuff, but at 100 or 200 I'm all set. It is also very much dependent on the ammo. That MP15 does NOT like a lot of ammo. Groups quickly jump to 1.5, 1.7... and even over 2 with some factory stuff and handloads it doesn't like. I've got a few other loads that are close to moa but not quite, at least not reliably, but the BCM doesn't like them as much so I stick with the game king load for the most part. I'm still hoping to find something that both rifles will shoot MOA, or even just over that. Right now it's closer to 1.5moa with the bcm and the game king load, occasionally smaller, but it's not the load it'll do 1.25 with. The MP15 doesn't like that load though, barely keeps it inside 2moa, which for that rifle is pretty lousy. To clarify the third rifle, the Del-Ton belongs to my buddy, I shoot it regularly but it's not one I do load development on, just the occasional test run of something to see how it likes it. It'll do a load using Hornady V-Max 60grains into 1.5moa pretty consistently so that's usually what I load up for him when he asks for accurate stuff. My rifles don't like it at all and barely get under 2moa with it, and that's usually considered a very accurate bullet. I've tried .2grain steps from start to just over the book's max with three different powders. At that point my wallet made me stop.
No mistake, my S&W is more accurate than I had any right to expect, the BCM and Del-Ton are about normal though, in my opinion. I haven't done extensive testing with the del-ton, but enough to know it's perfectly capable of under 2moa with the right ammo. I think a lot of people shoot a few different loads from half assed rests and without consideration for the wind conditions and then take that as a reliable indication of what the rifle's capable of. It's not that simple. If all I'd shot for ammo was Black Hills, Hornady Match and Prvi Match along with some M193 I'd think all my AR's were 2-2.5moa, with maybe a 1.5-1.75 out of the S&W using the black hills. 90% of the loads I've tried were over 1.5moa but under 2.5, and all the "good" ammo and handloads using match or hunting grade bullets were 2.0 and under. Hell, the Prvi Partisan so called "Match" ammo turned in 2.35 for ten round groups using both the 69 and 75 grain loads. I stopped measuring after that, but I used both ammos for a while for plinking and that's pretty much what I got every time. Prvi M193 was 2.5-3moa and is about on par with most of the other M193 loads I've used. This is out of the S&W, I pretty much started with handloads for the BCM barrel, starting with the loads the S&W liked. Basically, I'm agreeing, with mil-surp ammo you're not going to get small groups without a lot of luck somewhere along the line. The ammo isn't consistent enough for it. With decent factory ammo there's no reason not to expect better and with good handloads that the rifle likes there's no reason you can't get down around 1.5 with most AR's. The problem is that you might go through every factory loading and never find one your AR likes that much. Heck, if I'd stuck to the match grade loads and bullets I'd never have gotten sub moa out of my S&W, everything else is a good step backwards. My BCM isn't as accurate but has something almost as important to me, consistency. It'll put nearly any ammo into under 2moa. I'm not sure I ever shot groups with M193 but I might have to do that next time my buddy's at the range with me. I don't have any left other than my preps storage and I don't want to open a battle pack to fire ten or twenty rounds.
I think there's a bit of an over reaction to all the couch commandos who claim consistent sub moa with everything, a lot of us basically respond by going the other direction when folks ask about accuracy with an AR. I think part of it is wanting to avoid claiming something and then having the person come back saying we were wrong. If we say it's not going to be that good and it is, they're happy and proud instead of ticked off if we said it would be better than they get. Personally, I get the results I get and stand by them. They're not spectacular, sometimes they're downright funny. I grew up shooting benchrest rifles with a grandfather who did quite well at it and was a good teacher. From there I went to competing in two and three position small bore competition in HS and a bit in college before life got too busy. I'm used to thinking in terms of tiny little groups, where it darn well better be one not so ragged hole if you want to be competitive. For me, AR's were quite the step back from that and I think that kept me working at it and trying different things. I'm still not convinced I can't improve on the results I've gotten, I am just convinced my wallet is starting to cry about all the reloading components just for testing. Who knows, maybe this summer I'll try a different line of powders and the BCM will suddenly be sub MOA and the S&W will be lucky to get under 2moa with it. Not only talks the talk but walks the walk!! You wouldn't happen to be taking on any new students soon? I believe your the instructor I've been looking for.  
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lol, you're a bit far for lessons, but I have helped a few friends tighten their groups quite a bit. I enjoy teaching folks who want to learn. I'm not so good at passing along pistol skills and more dynamic rifle stuff, but for slow aimed fire I've got a pretty good track record. Hell, I need a bunch of training for the dynamic stuff myself, I've got the basics but after that I'm just self taught with limited practice so far. One of the gals I taught went from lucky to put it on paper to a regular annie oakley with an AR. She gets 90% of the credit for her determination and willingness to take instruction well and apply it, then give feedback for what was doing what as we got her dialed in.
Gimme a few minutes and I'll post a pic of the only group I did for accuracy today. I was sighting some stuff in after changes and finished up the 223 work with a group. Nothing special for ammo, just my regular reloads. 1.5" (by quicky tape measure, not caliper, so if you run it through a program and it's bigger or smaller... lol) I wasn't at my best by far, and it was a bit gusty, but nothing too severe in either case so I consider it a fair sample. eta:Ok, here's the target. the orange grid hoppes target was today and I am not sure how many rounds, I just finished off what was left in the magazine once I was satisfied. It looks like 12 but that's just counting holes. You're actually looking at it sideways to how it was posted, 90 degrees clockwise, so the shots were aimed at the center of the 4 orange squares but shooting a bit high since the zero is for 50/200. I think I'm probably a bit low at 200 but didn't feel like setting up a paper target out there to verify today, it was dead on at 50. The lower target, yellow and red, is one of the best groups I've gotten out of the S&W, using the game king bullet. If anyone wants it I'll IM the load but I seem to recall it's a no no to post full load data in a regular thread. That one's a 0.75moa group, shot at 100 yards on the calmest day we've had in months. Each round was done one at at time with individually weighed charges. I loaded them on a dillon RL550b with LEE dies so nothing special for precision there, just as careful as I could be making each one the same on that equipment. All the usual anal stuff, every case had the primer pocket cleaned out, was measured and trimmed to the exact same length, weighed and I picked sets that were within 1/10th of a grain... lol, overkill 99% of the time with an AR, but I was specifically trying to see what I could achieve and this time it paid off. That's a full ten rounds on paper. Eta2: for those who care, I also weighed each bullet and used sets of ten that weighed the same, so within 1/100th of a grain. I didn't do any concentricity checks or super careful measurements of the case mouth and such, I don't have the equipment for it. I wish my grandmother had kept my grandfather's reloading equipment but it got sold after he died before I could lay claim. I'm just lucky I got a couple of the rifles. 
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It just depends on what you want to do with the rifle. If you want a range toy to plink from the bench at long range, get a 20" varmint upper and a high powered optic. If you want a weapon to train to fight with, stick with the lightweight.
I don't shoot from a bench at all beyond zeroing my irons and optics. After that a range bench is just a place to put my shit so I don't have throw it on the ground. |
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I like both styles, but I'm definitely better at the bench still. Just a matter of more experience and training. I've been putting in more practice offhand (and more practical offhand rather than the upright locked elbow style I used for competition) and kneeling. It's definitely starting to pay off too, all that 22LR offhand on the indoor range this winter seems to be making a difference. I figure I'll fine tune that a bit and start practicing multiple targets closer in then move to the 3 sided bays and get back to working on the dynamic stuff. That's easier if I can get my buddy to setup targets with shoot no shoots mixed in at various ranges and overlaps, but where I can't see them till I come around a screen (target stand right at the line so I can't see downrange till I start).
There are some guys at my club, mostly older gents, who make me look like a rank amateur though. Particularly offhand. At some point on a 200 yard range the difference is just your equipment when shooting from the bench, but these guys can just nail shots offhand over and over. It's both humbling and motivating. Some of them have forgotten more about freehand shooting than I've ever learned. |
| Here we go...hes gonna build another rifle! seriously if you decide to sell it thats cool because it isnt what you want! But next time build it yourself purchase you a Good Barrel,BCG and TRIGGER and build around it. Oh before I forget SPEND DOUGH for a good piece of GLASS and it will get you where you need/want to be! WOA, LARUE and NOVESKE would be my top 3 in Barrels. Go with the 18-20" and it will do what you are asking and more with practice and the right ammo! |
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