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Posted: 3/2/2011 1:11:52 PM EDT
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Overall, not a bad day at the range. The wind was a bit cool. Temp. averaged at about 56 degrees or so, wind mostly at 7 o'clock, from 5 to 15mph. Very sunny, with some light clouds popping in every now and then. The thing that made load testing the worst was that as I was leaving the house, I tipped over my cartridge case. Two rounds out of each load I was testing came out, and got mixed up! I think that I got them back in their place, but who knows. Won't make that mistake again! All loads used Privi brass, CCI 400 primers, 77grn SMK, and Ramshot TAC powder. First, 23.5 grns TAC powder:  Next, 23.7 grns:  Next, 23.9 grns. This group just didn't feel good:  Finally, 24.1 grns:  Overall, happy. I think I'll play with 24.0 and 24.1, see which I like best. Unfortunately, I'm out of a chrony right now, so I don't know velocities. Hopefully that will come very soon. |
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Distance? I see alot of people listing wind, does that really affect groups at 100 yards (if said groups are at 100 yards) I actually was at the range today too. I havent taken picture of my groups yet. 10 -15+ mph wind affects groups at 100 YES, I now have an excuse for my not so great groups today! It was 50F with 19mph WNW winds 
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I'd be pissed off if I spent over 3k on a rifle and thats the best groups I got.. Personally, I don't see nothing wrong with those groups. The M16/AR15 was built to do 1 thing....hit people, kill or wound them and take them out of the fight. It does this in a very effective way. Look at it this way....if that had been center of mass of a human being, he's accomplished his mission, and can move on to the next target of opportunity. Nothing wrong with those groups, handloads for a match grade rifle can be mind wrenching at times when trying to come up with something better than factory match grade products. Plus, the handloading option gives you the chance to improve things for your particular rifle or pistol...those groups at the factory are in a controlled environment as well, i.e. no wind, ideal temps, etc. To the OP, drive on my friend...I'm also the proud owner of a MK 12 Mod 1 rifle and am currently experimenting with handlloads with TAC and R-15 with 75 gr Hornady and 77 gr SMK's. Hope this does not muddy up the brew too much! 
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Quoted: I'd be pissed off if I spent over 3k on a rifle and thats the best groups I got.. I'd be upset too. Leupold Prismatic 1X scope & a DPMS Mk12 SPR barrel @ 200 yards w/ a light breeze & 55gr bullets:  With that powerful of an optic and at half the distance, your groups should be tighter. |
| Those groups are pretty poor considering the equipment, however the key things to remember are that all barrels have their unique preferences when it comes to ammo and a rifle can only shoot as good as the person operating it allows. Another thing to consider is that some barrels simply don't shoot 77gr bullets well at 100yds. I have a friend who's rifle will group like the OP's at 100yds but tightens up considerably once he gets to 200+ yds....weird but true. That said, I'd suggest trying some 69gr and 75gr bullets with Varget, RE15, and TAC to see what your barrel likes best for longer range shoting and don't be afraid to try some 52gr SMK's with RE15 at 100yds. Thanks for the report! |
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I'd be pissed off if I spent over 3k on a rifle and thats the best groups I got.. Having the best equipment doesn't automatically make you able to trim the hairs on a fly's ass at 1,000yds. This. Not that I doubt the OP's abilities, but not everyone is a sub-MOA shooter, regardless of their equipment. OP, while TAC is a good powder, most people don't consider it a "match" powder. I'd give 8208 XBR, RL-15, and Varget a try, or maybe even H322 and Benchmark, along with some Rem 7 1/2 primers, Hornady 75gr HPBT bullets, or even some of the 68-69gr match bullets. You might even want to separate your cases by weight. Splurging on a box of Federal Gold Medal Match may not be a bad idea either. I *hate* load development. Too many variables that always leave me second-guessing. |
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I'd be pissed off if I spent over 3k on a rifle and thats the best groups I got.. Having the best equipment doesn't automatically make you able to trim the hairs on a fly's ass at 1,000yds. This. Not that I doubt the OP's abilities, but not everyone is a sub-MOA shooter, regardless of their equipment. OP, while TAC is a good powder, most people don't consider it a "match" powder. I'd give 8208 XBR, RL-15, and Varget a try, or maybe even H322 and Benchmark, along with some Rem 7 1/2 primers, Hornady 75gr HPBT bullets, or even some of the 68-69gr match bullets. You might even want to separate your cases by weight. Splurging on a box of Federal Gold Medal Match may not be a bad idea either. I *hate* load development. Too many variables that always leave me second-guessing. I personaly would not be happy with that group. I have to totally agree with strat81. I too would first put a box of good factory match ammo through it as a "baseline". I would then develop a load using that "baseline" as a comparison. How were your test loads developed? |
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Quoted: Quoted: How many round have been through the barrel? THIS is the most intelligent response to the groups shown in this thread so far. Thank you kind sir. I have seen accuracy improvements in multiple rifles as the round count grew( of course, not exponentially). I bite my tongue when I say this, but most some barrels have "break in" period to smooth any imperfections in the bore and you may see a slight increase in accuracy. I had a Remington 700 in .308 that gained about a .25-.50 MOA after about 120 rounds, heck it could have been my shooting but I'm not putting it out of the question. To the OP: Honestly, if you have a match grade barrel and you figure out the right load specs. I'm sure you can squeeze a lot more out of that weapon system. It wouldn't hurt to get some factory match ammo and compare it to your handloads. I have found Black Hills Red box 75gr HPBT ammo to be very accurate, even in my non-match 16" CMV MP barrel. Ian |
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How many round have been through the barrel? THIS is the most intelligent response to the groups shown in this thread so far. Rounds downrange doesn't necessarily matter. My BCM SS410 16" upper with standard handguards was putting 5 rounds into 1.4" at 100yds using a 3.5x TA11J-G after only 15 rounds down the barrel. I was using the following: Federal Brass 23.0gr TAC Hornady 75gr BTHP Remington 7 1/2 BR Primer I worked up from 21.8gr I think or something like that. 23.3gr was starting to produce ejector swipes which I don't want. |
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Wow, it's obvious how few people in this thread have ever tried to develop a match load. The barrel has only had about 120 rounds through it so far. Kevin at High Caliber told me that this barrel can tighten up with round count. This is the first time that I've ever tried to develop a match load for .223, let alone an AR. I have also heard from those far more knowledgable in this caliber that the 77grn SMK performs much better at longer distances, which I will try. For those who don't know squat about building a load; there are many factors that can change things drastically. Type of brass, type of primers, type of powder and grain weight, and bullets are all changing factors. Every barrel is different in what it will like. It does take time to figure these things out in order to maximize accuracy. I am aware that Ramshot TAC is not considered a true "match" powder; it's all I have on hand at the moment. My next test load will be with RL-15, or Varget. I'll also be testing at 200 yards as well. Edited to add: I've developed loads for many different calibers, and rarely do you find the sweet spot the first time out the gate. It took 3 months to develop my match .308 load, and when I got it just right, it was phenomenal. Some things just take time. |
| I agree with the comment above about switching powders, I forgot to mention my rifle hates BL_C2 as well, made my groups look like buckshot. Try Varget. You are right Match loads take time to develop, I spent a couple of months working on a 300 ultramag load once before I got the one the gun liked. When I developed my 223 load I started with brand new LC brass resized all of them, then I trimmed all of them to the same length and started midrange on the powder and worked my way up in .3 increments. Go thru the reloading forum and ask questions. |
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I am aware that Ramshot TAC is not considered a true "match" powder; it's all I have on hand at the moment. My next test load will be with RL-15, or Varget. I'll also be testing at 200 yards as well. As a current Varget user, I plan on trying out 8208 XBR when I run out. It's a shorter grain than Varget and reportedly tends to meter more consistently through most measures. It might be worth looking into, assuming you don't have 3 kegs of Varget stashed away. |
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Quoted: Quoted: I am aware that Ramshot TAC is not considered a true "match" powder; it's all I have on hand at the moment. My next test load will be with RL-15, or Varget. I'll also be testing at 200 yards as well. As a current Varget user, I plan on trying out 8208 XBR when I run out. It's a shorter grain than Varget and reportedly tends to meter more consistently through most measures. It might be worth looking into, assuming you don't have 3 kegs of Varget stashed away. Thanks, I'll look into this powder. No, unfortunately, I don't have 3 kegs of Varget stashed.  |
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+1 on the Varget... My SPR shoots 1/2 MOA with it & 77's. Ping me if you want the recipe.
To comment on something that you stated earlier, 77's do not get MORE accurate at longer distances (I believe that is an impossibility), they just don't fall off as much as other bullets so they hold their group better. Continue to search for the load the rifle likes, but don't give up on the 77's... S/F |
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+1 on the Varget... My SPR shoots 1/2 MOA with it & 77's. Ping me if you want the recipe. To comment on something that you stated earlier, 77's do not get MORE accurate at longer distances (I believe that is an impossibility), they just don't fall off as much as other bullets so they hold their group better. Continue to search for the load the rifle likes, but don't give up on the 77's... S/F There is a great video on youtube explaining how some calibers such as 338 lapua and .50 are more accurrate at 500+ meters then at 100 meters and it makes sense. But I dont think it happens with smaller calibers. |
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Wow, it's obvious how few people in this thread have ever tried to develop a match load. The barrel has only had about 120 rounds through it so far. Kevin at High Caliber told me that this barrel can tighten up with round count. This is the first time that I've ever tried to develop a match load for .223, let alone an AR. I have also heard from those far more knowledgable in this caliber that the 77grn SMK performs much better at longer distances, which I will try. For those who don't know squat about building a load; there are many factors that can change things drastically. Type of brass, type of primers, type of powder and grain weight, and bullets are all changing factors. Every barrel is different in what it will like. It does take time to figure these things out in order to maximize accuracy. I am aware that Ramshot TAC is not considered a true "match" powder; it's all I have on hand at the moment. My next test load will be with RL-15, or Varget. I'll also be testing at 200 yards as well. Edited to add: I've developed loads for many different calibers, and rarely do you find the sweet spot the first time out the gate. It took 3 months to develop my match .308 load, and when I got it just right, it was phenomenal. Some things just take time. [Pretty much this. If you dont like to reload develop your own loads that means reloading is just a hobby for you at best. I have developed loads for my .223, 22-250, 308, 25-06, 300 win mag and 300 Weatherby Mag. along with several loads for friends and family in 243, 7mm-08 and 30-06 as well. All took some doing and time. I love it. I am considered a good rifle shot at best and my load development is usually a group effort with my son who is a crack shot. That being said i have hit pigs deer, crows, antelope and prarie dogs at ranges that would make most of you smirk and me smile. New guys do not let your in ability to produce little tiny groups on paper discourage you. I will take a good hunter, soldier or Marine who can hit in the field under shitty conditions over a good paper puncher any day. Oh and op nice report and your rifle gives me a stiffy. I have 2 similar rigs (SPR's) that I just love. All hail the reloading press. 
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Quoted: Just curious, what kind of trigger you got in that mk12? The trigger is a Geissele SSA-E. As an aside, I wonder about the targets themselves. One thing that I noted was that I was trying to center up the crosshairs to split that box. It's the first time that I've used that sort of target, and I found myself wondering if they might help, or hurt. I know I've found other targets before that my eye did not like, and it affected my grouping with a well known .308 load. |
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Just curious, what kind of trigger you got in that mk12? The trigger is a Geissele SSA-E. As an aside, I wonder about the targets themselves. One thing that I noted was that I was trying to center up the crosshairs to split that box. It's the first time that I've used that sort of target, and I found myself wondering if they might help, or hurt. I know I've found other targets before that my eye did not like, and it affected my grouping with a well known .308 load. For 100 yards I recommend the sticker I used below. I got them in a pack of 1" 2" and 3" stickers at walamrt, they may have been for airguns but they work perfectly on a white background. Just shot this yesterday, the picture is rotated 90 degree clockwise. 
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Now theres a group above.. I'll stick to my original comment and you guys can justify crappy groups any way you want.. The OP payed a ton of money for this setup and got 2" to 2-12" groups and thinks their good enough to post pics on the net??? I didnt say anything about shooting a fly with an AR at 1k.. I didnt say anything about Sub-MOA, but for 3k I'd expect MOA. Change powders. Buy some factory Black hills to try..
I have that same barrel, bought it from Superior Barrels. Its a 18" SPR Douglas 1/7 that SB hard blue treated..I've assembled a SPR(not Mk12) Using Larue 12" rail/Spikes lower/Magpul UBR/PRI CH/danniel Defense Gasblock/RRA two stage trigger,ect/Nikon scope... I I get 3/4" average for 5 shot groups and 1" to 1-1/4" average for 10 shot groups. Never a single Malf in 5-6Hnd rounds, ALL reloads.. I know all about load DEV, I have tried TAC/Varget/H335 using Hornady 40Vmax/55Vmax/68BTHP/75BTHP's. I have a box of 77gr Sierra's that I need to get out and try.. Just saying. |
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Quoted: Now theres a group above.. I'll stick to my original comment and you guys can justify crappy groups any way you want.. The OP payed a ton of money for this setup and got 2" to 2-12" groups and thinks their good enough to post pics on the net??? I didnt say anything about shooting a fly with an AR at 1k.. I didnt say anything about Sub-MOA, but for 3k I'd expect MOA. Change powders. Buy some factory Black hills to try.. I have that same barrel, bought it from Superior Barrels. Its a 18" SPR Douglas 1/7 that SB hard blue treated..I've assembled a SPR(not Mk12) Using Larue 12" rail/Spikes lower/Magpul UBR/PRI CH/danniel Defense Gasblock/RRA two stage trigger,ect/Nikon scope... I I get 3/4" average for 5 shot groups and 1" to 1-1/4" average for 10 shot groups. Never a single Malf in 5-6Hnd rounds, ALL reloads.. I know all about load DEV, I have tried TAC/Varget/H335 using Hornady 40Vmax/55Vmax/68BTHP/75BTHP's. I have a box of 77gr Sierra's that I need to get out and try.. Just saying. First, I am not the sort of person who posts only the best I shoot, hoping to make myself look good. THese are the first test loads through this rifle, and decided to share a range report; I don't recall bragging about this group. If you know about so much about load development, like you claim, then I think that you would understand that it can take time, and shots down range. If you know so much, then why have you tried so many different powders, instead of pulling the magical perfect load out of your ass? I'd bet it's because it took you some experimentation to get the load that you were happy with. Secondly, minus flyers, which I did state that I mixed my loads, the last group would measure about 1 1/4" spread; not 2 1/2 inches. If I wanted to be an internet tough guy, I could have zoomed my lense in and shown several 1/4" 5 shot groups. But I don't do that. I'm honest about how I shoot; I've been doing it long enough that I know how I can shoot. I hope that you're done trying to measure dicks; it's a contest that I feel no need to participate in. The tech section is for people to post questions, experiences, and tips. Edited for clarification. |
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I have that same barrel, bought it from Superior Barrels. Its a 18" SPR Douglas 1/7 that SB hard blue treated..I've assembled a SPR(not Mk12) Using Larue 12" rail/Spikes lower/Magpul UBR/PRI CH/danniel Defense Gasblock/RRA two stage trigger,ect/Nikon scope... I I get 3/4" average for 5 shot groups and 1" to 1-1/4" average for 10 shot groups. Never a single Malf in 5-6Hnd rounds, ALL reloads.. I know all about load DEV, I have tried TAC/Varget/H335 using Hornady 40Vmax/55Vmax/68BTHP/75BTHP's. I have a box of 77gr Sierra's that I need to get out and try.. Just saying. If you know about load development, you would know it takes time and every barrel shoots different right. My Noveske shoots 1.5 moa with blackhills, buckshot with all BL-C2 loads and with 25.3 grains of Varget it shoots this: 
the one flyer is actually a Sneezer. Birdog continue with your loads and see what loads your gun likes. also what are you using to measure your powder? for mass "match" loads I am using a RCBS chargemaster 1500 and its pretty accurate. when I chronographed this load I got 2831, 2819, 2849, 2831, and 2831 FPS. Good luck |
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I'm weighing each load, but I'm still rolling old school with the 505. I really need to get a digital scale. I'll probably order some virgin LC brass, and get some RL-15; then play with Varget. If u get a scale buy atleast a $150 scale. Anything cheaper is crap. I had a cheap scale and just got the 505. I know I can trust it. |
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I hate those targets, I bet that is part of it. Try an orange paster like was suggested earlier. If the scope is illuminated, that helps me from time to time. Even cranked to 11 I wouldn't call it daylight visable, but the slight tint of the crosshairs on the black target really helps me with consistency.
Nice rig btw!  Wish I could roll my own.
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