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Posted: 2/15/2011 5:18:37 AM EDT
Anyone here do there own trigger job? results? I dont want to screw up my trigger just wish it was a little smoother.
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Don't mess with your trigger or have any of these jokers mess with it either. Those parts are surface hardened and you'll cause them to fail early by fudging with them.
You often read of people sending their parts to these jokers and a few months later their guns are doubling. 
Pony up for a nice Geissle (guys lee) trigger or get used to the GI trigger. 
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Quoted:
Don't mess with your trigger or have any of these jokers mess with it either. Those parts are surface hardened and you'll cause them to fail early by fudging with them. You often read of people sending their parts to these jokers and a few months later their guns are doubling.
Pony up for a nice Geissle (guys lee) trigger or get used to the GI trigger. I'm glad you ut that (guys lee) in there, I've been saying that wrong for years |
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Quoted:
Don't mess with your trigger or have any of these jokers mess with it either. Those parts are surface hardened and you'll cause them to fail early by fudging with them. You often read of people sending their parts to these jokers and a few months later their guns are doubling.
Pony up for a nice Geissle (guys lee) trigger or get used to the GI trigger. Bill Springfield is no joker. He has a good business and is a good smith. I've never had any trigger from him fail. Not ever. And if it did, its relatively cheap to replace. |
| Cut hammer and JP springs. Instant Trigger job without the hassles of wait times, extra cost. Ive been doing this for years and havent had any issues. Itll greatly improve a stock trigger. Anything else and I would recommend a drop in like Timney or Wilson Combat. Dont polish or grind on anything other than hacking off the "tail" of the hammer. |
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Quoted:
Don't mess with your trigger or have any of these jokers mess with it either. Those parts are surface hardened and you'll cause them to fail early by fudging with them. You often read of people sending their parts to these jokers and a few months later their guns are doubling.
Pony up for a nice Geissle (guys lee) trigger or get used to the GI trigger. All good points. However, I'd hardly call Springfield a joker. Some have had issues, some haven't. Geissele (the correct spelling  ) is the way to go if you have the money.
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Simply three things go into a good AR trigger pull using the GI trigger and hammer and springs.
*Trigger spring power. *Hammer spring power. *Angle of trigger engaging hammer and the condition of the two engagement surfaces. (The trigger being pulled makes the hammer cock a little like a DA revolver and is the #1 safety feature of the AR fire control system. If you let it go half pulled, it resets to full depth on purpose.) If you lower trigger spring power too much, it will half pull and NOT reset when you let it go. It then sits on less than full engagement waiting to jar off. If you reduce hammer spring power too much, it will not whallop the primers hard enough to fire them when cold, dirty, and dry. If at all. If you change the angles, it isn't safe because it for sure will not reset to full engagement on a half pull. (Beware the internet sillies who for $ remove enough metal to change the angle and bend the hell out of springs. The result is a too low trigger pull, no proper reset if half pulled, and they have gone through the surface hardening. The pull deteriorates in a few hundred rounds and the fire control group is ruined. Or they additionally weld lumps to limit engagement and over travel. Yes, they can make an edgy hair trigger but it is not safe and not sensible and it doesn't last. Bending springs to weaken them usually ends up with them changing their strength in use. And yes the guy mentioned above is one of them making hair trigger non resetting welding spotted up junk.) The best safe cheap combination I have found is (1) polish the two surfaces mirror smooth with 600-1000 grit paper on a hard backing and stop. Polish only. Absolutely square and flat. No metal removing. No angle changing. (2) standard GI trigger spring for full reset and safety. (3) Tubb 90% hammer spring from Brownell's. It is made so that at full cock it has about 90% of the force of a normal spring, but the metal it is made of accelerates the hammer to near normal velocity. It works. The end result is a pull of 6-7# that is very smooth. And very manageable. Beyond that, you are looking at an expensive trigger pack, single or double pull variety. One of the links sometimes given is for JP trigger stuff. I have not found their stuff to be reliable. Not enough power to reset a half pulled trigger and not enough power to fire primers. A target gun plaything is the result. Pay attention when they say, "Use of this spring kit requires the use of US manufactured (domestic) ammunition or reloades with domestic (non-NATO spec) primers as ignition reliability will be reduced with hard low sensitivity primers as found in may foreign made ammunitions and NATO specification ammunition. Use these parts only in rifles for recreational or competion shooting. Do not use this pring kit for any defense ro duty applications...." They mean it. For me, any gun I pick up has to go bang with any normal ammo I might pick up. I personally find the Rock River two stage triggers a very functional choice at $120 from Brownell's. |
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Totally agree with LampShadeActual above - especially regarding the Tubbs Springs - I find they really help any stock trigger in terms of consistency.
Nomatter what you do with stock triggers, there will always be some variance with them, but the best one I have come across to date has been the LWRCi one - they are expensive, but consistently very nice. |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Don't mess with your trigger or have any of these jokers mess with it either. Those parts are surface hardened and you'll cause them to fail early by fudging with them. You often read of people sending their parts to these jokers and a few months later their guns are doubling.
Pony up for a nice Geissle (guys lee) trigger or get used to the GI trigger. Bill Springfield is no joker. He has a good business and is a good smith. I've never had any trigger from him fail. Not ever. And if it did, its relatively cheap to replace. I have three triggers done by Bill and am very pleased with his work. One trigger is on my 3-gun rifle and it has over a thousand rounds since the work and still appears to be functioning very well. I believe the key to a Springfield trigger is to forward him a trigger set which is in new to excellent condition. He does work on what ever you send him, I believe the mixed reviews have been from folks who have sent work components and expected the world from the work. "Junk in is Junk out"... The turn-a-round time has been @seven work days...IMHO Bill is GTG... |
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Quoted:
Don't mess with your trigger or have any of these jokers mess with it either. Those parts are surface hardened and you'll cause them to fail early by fudging with them. You often read of people sending their parts to these jokers and a few months later their guns are doubling.
Pony up for a nice Geissle (guys lee) trigger or get used to the GI trigger. The FCG in the cheaper LPK's may have a very shallow surface hardening. If you do any stoning on these they well need re-hardening. This is a very simple procedure. The better quality FGC's well have a surface hardening of .020-.040 or deeper and you normally do not remove that much material. Doing a trigger job on the AR is not rocket science, but you do need some basic knowledge of how the three parts interact. A trigger block so you can set up the FCG outside the rifle and basic smithing tools is all that's required tool wise. Springfield does a nice trigger and stands behind his work, you only hear the squeaky wheels. He was tons of satisfied customers. Simply three things go into a good AR trigger pull using the GI trigger and hammer and springs.
*Trigger spring power. *Hammer spring power. *Angle of trigger engaging hammer and the condition of the two engagement surfaces. (The trigger being pulled makes the hammer cock a little like a DA revolver and is the #1 safety feature of the AR fire control system. If you let it go half pulled, it resets to full depth on purpose.) Maintaining a positive angle on the sear surface is very important. A neutral or negative angle well result in a malfunctioning rifle. A good trigger job on the AR well involve working with the disconnector also. |
| I've had 4 Bill Springfield triggers over the years which all performed good. You do see a post every now and then about a problem, sometimes after a lot of use, but most times out of the box. Tons of people send them in and most are happy with results. You can keep your trigger spring if you don't want it bend, or used aftermarket replacements ,etc and the tigger is still better. I have gone the other way and used a Wolf heavy spring on a Bill Springfield trigger and the result was still pretty good (it was needed to set off 50bmg primers). |
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Quoted: Don't mess with your trigger or have any of these jokers mess with it either. Those parts are surface hardened and you'll cause them to fail early by fudging with them. You often read of people sending their parts to these jokers and a few months later their guns are doubling. Pony up for a nice Geissle (guys lee) trigger or get used to the GI trigger. I'll say this is good advice. Etither spend on a good qaulity aftermarket trigger, or get used to the issue trigger. |
| There are lots of different types of Geissele trigger groups out there - which one is best? Or what do most people use? All my ARs currently run two-stage RA NM triggers, but I'm building a stripped Noveske lower into an SBR and was thinking of getting G&R's LPK w/o the FCG and springing for a Geissele. |
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Lots of Naysayers will jump, shout and run about waving their arms and shouting warnings about touching your own trigger. Gunsmiths have been customizing triggers by stoning and polishing for a hundred years. Here's my opinion, feel free to disregard it, I am no gunsmith. I have been playing with triggers since I first read an article by Jim Carmichel in Outdoor Life magazine in 1973. I immediately swapped out the trigger spring in my single shot .22 for a lighter one. Still have that rifle, still shoots, trigger hasn't failed yet. Lots of other mods since then. AR triggers are designed for battle conditions, rain, sleet, dust, mud and poor maintenance, they must remain 100% reliable. They must function for a wide variety of shooter experience. They must meet military specification. If this is the duty of your rifle, you should leave the trigger alone. If you have a rifle like mine, that has zero chance of seeing combat (despite the wet dreams of the Internet commandos), and only goes to the range once every month or two on bright sunny days for some plinking or target practice, and you want a nicer trigger for cheap, here's a few things you can do.
Start here I used the yellow springs from JP Rifles, and polished the sear surfaces on my trigger. It's best to buy a FCG to play with and keep your known reliable set in reserve in case you screw up or wish to sell your rifle. $35 is a cheap insurance policy. Best way to polish is a very flat surface like a piece of glass with some very fine (like 400+ grit) paper. polish out all the machining tool marks(use a magnifying glass to look at them) This should not effect the hardening of the parts. Take care not to over do it or change the angles. I like to finish with a light buffing with a dremel and some rubbing compound or jewelers rouge. I also polish the part of the trigger and hammer pins that the parts ride on.(leave the ends where they go into the receiver alone) You can do this in a drill. I also add a 1/4-28 thread X 3/8 long allen head screw up through the pistol grip hole. It should fit above the bolt that holds the grip on, if your receiver is threaded all the way through.(some receivers need to be "chased" with a tap, and sometimes you need a slightly shorter grip screw) The purpose of this screw is to very slightly "pre-pull" your trigger to eliminate creep. Reassemble with a quality lube. Lots of folks like midway, brownells, JP Rifles sell good synthetics for triggers. Leave the grip off for now. With the FCG reassembled, adjust the allen head screw in the grip screw hole up until the safety selector stops moving. Back it up until it moves freely. This is the maximum creep adjustment you can get without modifying other parts. Now test the trigger. Use something to block the hammer so that it doesn't impact the front of the receiver, as this can cause damage. You should now have about a 4-5# trigger with minimal creep, and very smooth. Now time for safety testing. Reassemble the rifle, collapse the buttstock if you have that type, and bump test. Cock the rifle and drop it on the butt from 6-10 inches on a padded surface(like carpet). Do this repeatedly until you are absolutely satisfied that the trigger cannot be bump fired. If it does fail, you need to back off the creep adjustment on the allen screw. If everything works well, off to the range to test. As with all mods or changes to a rifle, you should start with single loads, then two bullets, until you are confident that all is well. A couple of things. JP states on their web site; this mod is NOT for duty rifles, target only, they offer different levels of springs for tactical use or milspec ammo. The yellow springs may not work on some hard milspec primers. I haven't had any failures. You may also want to mod your hammer by grinding off the spur to lighten it up. The spur serves no purpose on AR-15s, it's a remnant from the hook necessary for full auto. Lightening it improves the lock time and striking speed. It should look like this when you are done. Any second now there will be a hundred people along to tell you that this is dangerous and I am an idiot. All I can say is I have over a thousand rounds downrange with no issues, Gearhead claims many thousands with a similar mod, lots have folks have done it and no one has posted a failure. If it does fail, you are out $35 bucks. I consider the FCG to be a replaceable part that I can wear out, like a barrel. Just my opinion,I could be wrong 
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Quoted:
Don't mess with your trigger or have any of these jokers mess with it either. Those parts are surface hardened and you'll cause them to fail early by fudging with them. You often read of people sending their parts to these jokers and a few months later their guns are doubling.
Pony up for a nice Geissle (guys lee) trigger or get used to the GI trigger. This is the correct answer, in my ex. What with the piles of drop-in casset type trigger packs these days, why bother? Geissle makes great triggers, but there are other fine triggers out there as well. Never mess with "tuning" factory triggers unless you are a qualified gunshmith––I speak from sad exspence. |
| Try a little moly lube on the mating surfaces it might smooth out enough for you. I like the JP yellow springs but personally don't do much polishing. Polishing is wear. Wear is wear. Jewelers rouge will also smoth it out over time if you just put a dap on the mating surfaces but I don't do it. Springfield does a nice job for the bucks. If you want a really nice FCG you will probably have to spend a little dough and then it's personal preference. What's best for you might not be best for me. |
| For whats it's worth, I recently installed a Timney 3lb trigger unit. Took literally 10 mins and the pull minus the creek is like night & day from the original OEM trigger. Why screw with the original trigger when it's not all that much more to install a complete unit. |
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For a lot of guys, $250-300 is the difference between enough ammo to go shooting or not, or even getting a new rifle or not. So, for you guys who can plunk down 3 bills without thinking about it, a new Geissele or Timney is a great solution to a crappy mil trigger. For the rest of us shlubs, though, Springfield and JP are reasonable alternatives.
That said, I agree that amateurs shouldn't pudge around with their triggers. If you need trigger work, let the pros do it. . . |
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Am I the only guy here who can shoot nice groups with a regular AR15 trigger I have no complaints about good standard triggers either. Compared to some military rifles (the G3/HK91 springs to mind) the AR doesn't have a bad trigger, really. Although it has to be said, the biggest problem with the stock triggers is the amount of variance between one and the next, even from the same manufacturer. |
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Sorry, mine were two for two, 100% unsafe. The angles were changed and they would not reset if half pulled. Half pulling was a hard thing to do unless you did it on purpose because there was so little engagement left in the single stage pull that it was a classic hair on each set.
The use of a standard trigger spring insures a crisp reset. The Tubb hammer spring has never failed to fire a collection of MilSurp such as PMP/SA, LC, and IVI ammo. What I sent was new FCG parts. I understand people like his triggers sometimes. I would guess they are benchresters who don't mind the instant ignition. They are not real world general use triggers in my opinion. |
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I have installed 3 JP custom triggers. They took awhile and you have to know what you are doing but the result was fantastic for each. I also have a Timney trigger and love it. I especially appreciated how easy it was to install the Timney trigger but I learned A LOT from installing the JP triggers.
HOWEVER, having said that, I have now done several of my own trigger jobs following the directions on this site: Junk yard A little more info from another site: Concealed carry I used this in conjunction with JP's light (yellow) trigger spring kit. Total cost for the trigger job including shipping was under $15. I can now say that I will never buy another aftermarket trigger again. The resulting weight of the trigger is a bit more than the Timney but the creep is about the same. And for about 1/10th the price, you can't beat it! It is awesome!!! The hardest part is to properly fit the safety. Take your time and only take a little off at a time. If done properly, you will have a very nice trigger with very little creep that is also safe! FYI: This trigger job is easier and quicker than the JP custom trigger that you must also fit yourself. CAUTION: IF YOU DON'T FEEL COMFORTABLE WORKING ON YOUR OWN TRIGGER, THEN JUST BUY A QUALITY DROP-IN. |
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Am I the only guy here who can shoot nice groups with a regular AR15 trigger.
You and any decent shooter in our military. I can shoot them just fine, but prefer a little lighter single stage. 5-6 lbs is fine with me. Don't like a two stage myself but it's a whole new ball game for me also. Been shooting without for over 40 years now. A fancy trigger is a bandaid for most and an expensive one at that. As stated above a M-16 trigger isn't that bad. Wouldn't personally spend much on a trigger unless professional match shooting but they are available for those who want them. If most took the money the trigger cost and bought good ammo they would get the same end result. They are made for match shooting. In my opinion a real good shooter is going to be real good with or without a match trigger. I'd rather have good eyes than a fancy trigger. With that said, I'll buy a $5-10 set of springs if it makes me feel better. |
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What a thread! Why not try this? Standard AR triggers are just fine - use your money for ammo. Trigger is surface hardened and then surface ground. Surface grinding that edge leaves a burr, and it should be removed. Remove your FCG and inspect - you'll likely see that there are uneven shiny spots (providing it has been used). Feel the edge with your finger, rub a little with very fine sandpaper, check edge, etc, etc. You'll know you're done when you still have the needed edge but no burr - which will really smooth your trigger pull / sear reset, without changing any angles. You'd have to sand real hard to remove .0005 with some 2000grit, much less .020 of surface hard. Don't go wild, I'm only taking about a few rubs. |
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I replaced the stock springs in my Bushmaster XM15-E2S with the JP yellow springs. I did not feel comfortable doing the polishing procedure they described.
This resulted in the first malfunction I have had in over 1000 rounds this past weekend. Pull trigger, click, no bang. Tried it on 3 rounds, all had dimples. (It was about 15 deg F outside). This is the worst feeling in the world. Swapped out the JP yellow springs with the factory springs when I got home. Going to do a functional test tomorrow. I will be saving the JP yellow springs for another project. -Dan |
| I have a Spike's Battle trigger and like it very much. I also have a stock Stag trigger that is very nice also. I placed a yellow J&P trigger spring in it and lightly polished the contact surfaces using a littl Semichrome paste. Has no creep and breaks clean. I believe the trick is not to over do it. |
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I replaced the stock springs in my Bushmaster XM15-E2S with the JP yellow springs. I did not feel comfortable doing the polishing procedure they described.
This resulted in the first malfunction I have had in over 1000 rounds this past weekend. Pull trigger, click, no bang. Tried it on 3 rounds, all had dimples. (It was about 15 deg F outside). This is the worst feeling in the world. Never had a problem in thousands of rounds but I rotate my rifles and I can assure you the first time I do they will be replaced. Think I might put a set of M-16 springs in my bag just in case. I strive for around 5 lbs when I do a trigger with JP's yellows or TTI reds. TTI is 3 miles from my house. So easy for me to get. Not to say it did, but I'm too old to shoot in 15 degrees F unless someone is shooting at me. |
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