AR Sponsor
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - long range ARs? what does it take? (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 2/7/2011 9:13:57 AM EDT
|
i know im not the only one that has read someones post or blog about someones recent trip to a long range rifle class where there was "this one guy" with a AR that was making body shots out at 1000 yards.
I dont doubt that such a thing is possible. My question is..........what does this take? Do i need to build a custom part by part 5000$ AR? Do i need a krierger barrel with a decimal thread ratio and a matched bolt? ...........my question has a point......... i bought my first ar (a bushy) and shot the hell out of it until i learned enough about ARs to build a custom mid 14.5.............now i want to dabble into the long range a little bit. your "advanced AR smith tips" would be very much appreciated as i am trying to figure out how to take this platform and build a consistent long range machine |
|
Quoted:
It takes a good shooter whos very comfortable with his or hers gun. A high quality barrel, scope rings, scope, free float handguard, and match ammunition can help. Too get to 1000 with 5.56/.223 ? What would would we be talking about ballistics wise at that range? I know that this table here is talking about mil ammo from a mil barrel and such.. but can you really bump it up enough to get out that far and still do damage? 
I know that table is speaking about military ammo from a military barrel... but what would it take to make the setup for out to 1k? I may be reading it wrong.. but It seems like a stretch even with aftermarket ammo. |
|
I've seen and heard of people reaching out to 1k yards with 5.56 but thats just on paper...As far as having some punch left once you get out there I have no idea...
An accurate AR takes a good barrel, optics, mounts and most importantly someone capable behind the trigger... |
|
meh, thread already lost the direction i was going in.
you, i and the next guy that has even shot 500 rounds through an AR knows 1000 yards is what it is..........a top of the line platform with "an operator that can make it sing" where i may be a hunter and have a good bit of behind the gun time i am not a long range "symphony conductor" im just trying to impress myself by building a nice consistent AR that i can shoot nice good long range groups with ETA 600 yards is the farthest out i would really be shooting as all of the gun ranges i go to dont really go out past that |
|
AR's are routinely shot at 600 yards in NRA high power. They are quite accurate. However, I think 1000 yards is really pushing it. I'd consider a larger caliber like 308, 300 winchester magnum or 338 lapua just to name a few. For accuracy, you need an excellent barrel (white oak is what I use) and a free float tube. A nice trigger helps to. If you use a scope, good glass and scope rings are essential. |
|
Quoted:
meh, thread already lost the direction i was going in. you, i and the next guy that has even shot 500 rounds through an AR knows 1000 yards is what it is..........a top of the line platform with "an operator that can make it sing" where i may be a hunter and have a good bit of behind the gun time i am not a long range conductor im just trying to impress myself by building a nice consistent AR that i can shoot nice good long range groups with Thats not what you asked.. you asked "what can make an AR get out to 1000 yards" basically. Which begs the question first if it is even possible and if so... is it worth it? But others have already answered your revised question... These are the requirements. No fancy gun smithing tricks needed until the "User" can outperform the parts. And if you get to the point where you can outperform the best parts out there... then you'll likely be so rich from competitions.. and so knowledgeable about it from your own experience.. that we will be asking you for tips. User. Ammo. Barrel. Scope. Trigger. Mounts |
|
Something like this should work...It definately impresses me and everyone else who has shot it...Have taken it out to 300 so far but even a new shooter went 20 for 20 on a 10x10 target with cheap ammo...
Not saying he grouped well but 20 for 20 is still pretty good with Tula... 
|
|
If I was going to be shooting much beyond 500 yards I'd buy a different platform or an AR chambered in a different cartridge. An AR-10 in .308 would work well. That or a LaRue OBR heavy. Can it be done? Sure can. But it's going to take a lot more money and patience and even with that you likely wouldn't get the same level of performance... It's like making a Honda Civic drag car vs making a 60-70s American drag car. You can do both but the 60-70s American car will probably cost you less and do better in the end for that purpose. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
meh, thread already lost the direction i was going in. you, i and the next guy that has even shot 500 rounds through an AR knows 1000 yards is what it is..........a top of the line platform with "an operator that can make it sing" where i may be a hunter and have a good bit of behind the gun time i am not a long range conductor im just trying to impress myself by building a nice consistent AR that i can shoot nice good long range groups with Thats not what you asked.. you asked "what can make an AR get out to 1000 yards" basically. Which begs the question first if it is even possible and if so... is it worth it? But others have already answered your revised question... These are the requirements. No fancy gun smithing tricks needed until the "User" can outperform the parts. And if you get to the point where you can outperform the best parts out there... then you'll likely be so rich from competitions.. and so knowledgeable about it from your own experience.. that we will be asking you for tips. User. Ammo. Barrel. Scope. Trigger. Mounts well that says it right there..............the best barrel i have is a BCM 14.5, the ammo i shoot the most is XM 193 and the best glass i have (where it may be a top of the line red dot) are only aimpoints. |
|
I built an Army SDM(ish) rifle last spring that I shoot to 700yds. I am not the greastest shot, but with the bipod and little wind I can make hits at 700yds on a torso sized piece of steel pretty regular. I use SSA 5.56 77gr otm rounds to shoot to 700. I am working up a handload to get me there, but I haven't been to the range to try it out. I would say you need a quality optic with repeatable to adjustments as well for best results. The 2.5-8x leupold on my build is very nice for shooting at 700yds I think.
Rifle: BCM upper and BCG Douglas 20" SDM profile barrel from CLE Matched bolt DD 12" m4 rail Lower is just a run of the mill armalite with a gieselle SSA trigger. 
Here is the only pic I have of one of my 700yd targets. This is the first three shots I ever fired at 700 with this rifle. These three were to check zero before moving to the steel torso beside that huge plate. 
This is my 500yd target, a 20"x 30" steel plate. The plate on the right of the pic was shot with my .223 sdm rifle prone off a bipod. The steel to the left of the pic was shot with my .308 lmt mws prone off the bipod. 
My lmt now has a 20" barrel I can't wait to try out in a couple weeks. AS far as shooting to 1k, I would scratch 223 and go 308. The .223 would be trouble if there was any wind at that range. ETA: Here is the lmt .308 shooting that target. .308 lmt mws 500 yds |
|
Quoted:
i know im not the only one that has read someones post or blog about someones recent trip to a long range rifle class where there was "this one guy" with a AR that was making body shots out at 1000 yards. I dont doubt that such a thing is possible. My question is..........what does this take? Do i need to build a custom part by part 5000$ AR? Do i need a krierger barrel with a decimal thread ratio and a matched bolt? ...........my question has a point......... i bought my first ar (a bushy) and shot the hell out of it until i learned enough about ARs to build a custom mid 14.5.............now i want to dabble into the long range a little bit. your "advanced AR smith tips" would be very much appreciated as i am trying to figure out how to take this platform and build a consistent long range machine You need a quality barrel and a good trigger. You also need to be shooting better than mil surp ammo. Then lastly you need a lot of trigger time and a solid understanding of your rifle. When I say "good barrel" I mean any of the top tier barrel makers. They dont necessarily make a better barrel than the lower tier makers but they do make a consistently good barrel which is important. You buy a Krieger, Hart, Douglas etc etc (The list is long, I wont try to name them all) you get a quality shooter every time. You buy a lower grade barrel it might be hit or miss if you get a good barrel. The trigger gives you consistent, smooth breaks every time. No creep, slop or other problems that affect the break. The general rule of thumb to describe a good trigger break is "breaks like glass". Crisp, clean and smooth. JP, Geissle, and a few others can give you what you need. Ammo is the gas in the car. You dont put shit gas in a Porsche and you dont run mil surp ammo in a precision shooter. 1000 yards you will almost be forced to handload. This gives you consistent, repeatable performance in your ammo. You need every bullet to be the same, each shot to have the same velocity, etc etc. The AR platform can certainly function at 1000 yards for ringing steel or punching paper. You'll never hunt at that range as its got no punch left to speak of but it can be used at that distance. Now if you want a long range shooter on the Ar platform but not necessarily with the 556 round then you open up some other very good choices. |
|
Quoted:
I built an Army SDM(ish) rifle last spring that I shoot to 700yds. I am not the greastest shot, but with the bipod and little wind I can make hits at 700yds on a torso sized piece of steel pretty regular. I use SSA 5.56 77gr otm rounds to shoot to 700. I am working up a handload to get me there, but I haven't been to the range to try it out. I would say you need a quality optic with repeatable to adjustments as well for best results. The 2.5-8x leupold on my build is very nice for shooting at 700yds I think. Rifle: BCM upper and BCG Douglas 20" SDM profile barrel from CLE Matched bolt DD 12" m4 rail so what exactly does a Squad Designated Marksman profile barrel consist of? and what does the term "matched bolt" mean? does that mean they are machined to fit perfectly in some way or something? |
|
The Porter Cup Trophy match at Camp Perry is shot at 1k yds. with service rifles. An AR rifle was won it numerous times, so it can be done.
I shot a 1k match over 10 years ago with my AR service rifle. Scored a 368 out of a possible 400. Here's what I used: free floated Kreiger 20" 1 in 7.7" barrel 80 gr SMK handloaded with 25 grs. Varget, LC case and RP 7 1/2 primer 1/2 min. sights two stage trigger FWIW the 2 other rifles in service rifle class at that match were M1A's. Both rifles had their 168 SMK's keyholing into the target. If I ever do it again, I'd use either Berger or JLK VLD bullets |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
I built an Army SDM(ish) rifle last spring that I shoot to 700yds. I am not the greastest shot, but with the bipod and little wind I can make hits at 700yds on a torso sized piece of steel pretty regular. I use SSA 5.56 77gr otm rounds to shoot to 700. I am working up a handload to get me there, but I haven't been to the range to try it out. I would say you need a quality optic with repeatable to adjustments as well for best results. The 2.5-8x leupold on my build is very nice for shooting at 700yds I think. Rifle: BCM upper and BCG Douglas 20" SDM profile barrel from CLE Matched bolt DD 12" m4 rail so what exactly does a Squad Designated Marksman profile barrel consist of? and what does the term "matched bolt" mean? does that mean they are machined to fit perfectly in some way or something? The SDM barrel is a 20" 1/7" twist barrel. I forget the maker that supplies the barrels for the army, but I felt douglas would be a good place to start. What really makes the SDM barrel unique is that is has 12 deep flutes under the handguard, making what was a heavyweight barrel weigh just a little more than the standard barrel. Also, the fsb is attached via four windage adjustable set screws. I'm not saying you need an sdm profile barrel to shoot the longer distances, thats just what I wanted for my rifle. 
As far as the matched bolt, I'm not sure it's something really needed in an ar type rifle. However, It is a bolt supplied by CLE that is headspaced to my barrel. I was going to be needing a bolt anyway so I figured it couldn't hurt to have cle send one of there bolts and have it headspaced to my barrel. When putting this rifle together, I did lots of reading and the opinion seems to be 50/50 if a matched bolt is needed or not. |
| i've never shot at 1k yards with an ar, but my first build was a precision build built for 500yds + and it was a ringer. i had a sabre defence supermatch 20" 1/8 barrel, KAC 12" free float, handloaded 69gr smk loaded by a friend, and a very well used standard trigger that just happened to be very good for what it was. my friend and i could regularly shoot between 4 and 6 inches at 500yds with this setup, depending on wind. if you take into account the consistency of that setup, bullets included, i don't think it would be th at hard at all to punch paper at 1k yards. it would just be a matter of getting a scope with more magnification ( i was using a 3x9 Nikon BDC) and getting acquainted with that extreme bullet drop. |
I shot at 750m (~820yards) last year... I was hitting about 75-80% on IPSC targets with ~~VERY~~ favorable weather conditions using a 18" AR... Once the wind picked up, we switched to the 300winmag and 338 Lapua... with not too much improvement on my part  Rifles of the day: 18" Larue Stealth, S&B 4-16x50, Geis SSA, 77gr SMK handloads–– This rifle performed on par with my buddy's McMillan Custom out to about 450m... Then the disparity between the two rounds was much more noticeable... namely wind became a MUCH bigger bugger... Mcmillan Custom (made by McMillan Himself) 300wm 20", NF 5-22 Accuracy international AWSM- 338Lap S&B 5-22x56––> The thought of shooting 5 dollar bills made me cringe at each trigger-pull; Glad it wasn't my ammo!... Honestly, I was less than impressed by this gun considering all the hype... I'd say, I'd be `at best` 50/50 at 1000m with my stealth under ideal conditions... but I'm not overly experienced at Long range, so i have no preconceived notions that I would be able to perform even that well... |
|
Very simply, from someone who has used the M16 platform as a sniper weapon system: The weapon can be accurate out to 1200 meters easily. The issue is effectiveness. It was the first weapon system that I ever used that had an effective range less than its maximum accurate range. This is because 5.56 kills by fragmenting and fragmentation requires velocity. So, with the right bullet it can be effective as a sniper weapon system out to max 1000 meters. More realistically 800 before fragmentation becomes unreliable. Accuracy and exterior ballistics are not the issues - terminal ballistics are the limiting factor. The best thing about the AR platform is that for accuracy you need to free float a quality barrel and shoot appropriate ammo. That's it. To increase the shooter's effectiveness, a match trigger will make a big difference, as do a good bipod, stock and monopod. The beauty of the AR platform is that you do not need to lap bolt lugs, true anything, or tighten anything. A good barrel and you are good to go. Also, you gain nothing from a barrel 22" or longer than a possible loss of accuracy, except maybe with certain handloads. Stick to 20" for best accuracy/velocity. You may IM me for tips if you like.
|
| By the way, if I was building a rifle strictly for LR shooting, especially for use on caribou or something, I would look toward the 6mm or 6.5mm calibers. The wind effects these calibers around half as much as .308, the ballistics are excellent, terminal ballistics are impressive, and there are great long-range bullets available for hunting. The trade-off is that both the rifle and ammo will end up being more expensive than 5.56, and 5.56 drops caribou pretty well, too, with the right bullets, and not so far out. |
|
This site has a Palma shooter, who on occasion checks in. Seems to have some experience at 1k as he won that event in OR in the past.
Purpose built AR, 30" tube if I remember right. He advised me to buy a AA side charger, which I did. My barrel is a 26" WOA and has yet to be shot. What goes up Will come down. You need to very good to control where http://www.researchpress.co.uk/longrange/sandyhook.htm |
|
Nope.
I didn't need to see it, nor how it would look like on the receiver. http://www.whiteoakarmament.com/ I'm not into the "How will it look, or post you pic's" types. I can think and don't need that kind of mutual approval. |
|
Quoted:
This site has a Palma shooter, who on occasion checks in. Seems to have some experience at 1k as he won that event in OR in the past. Purpose built AR, 30" tube if I remember right. He advised me to buy a AA side charger, which I did. My barrel is a 26" WOA and has yet to be shot. What goes up Will come down. You need to very good to control where http://www.researchpress.co.uk/longrange/sandyhook.htm I'd love to know the load he was using to take advantage of that 30". As far as I knew you gained "nothing" by going over 24" on the AR platform. |
|
Quoted:
This site has a Palma shooter, who on occasion checks in. Seems to have some experience at 1k as he won that event in OR in the past. Purpose built AR, 30" tube if I remember right. He advised me to buy a AA side charger, which I did. My barrel is a 26" WOA and has yet to be shot. What goes up Will come down. You need to very good to control where http://www.researchpress.co.uk/longrange/sandyhook.htm With a 26" barrel do you have a longer gas system then a rifle one? If not then there cannot be any advantage over a 20-22" |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
This site has a Palma shooter, who on occasion checks in. Seems to have some experience at 1k as he won that event in OR in the past. Purpose built AR, 30" tube if I remember right. He advised me to buy a AA side charger, which I did. My barrel is a 26" WOA and has yet to be shot. What goes up Will come down. You need to very good to control where http://www.researchpress.co.uk/longrange/sandyhook.htm With a 26" barrel do you have a longer gas system then a rifle one? If not then there cannot be any advantage over a 20-22" Yes, it has a 2" longer gas tube. And as stated I've yet to fire it. Needless to say this is not a normal AR. |
|
ok so after getting back from work i can see the 1k people start to trickle in.........
just like i said. we KNOW they can hit shit out at 1k i know, you know ok, and i stated earlier that the longest ranges i really ever get to go play at only get out to 600 yards. and then we have experts on here saying HITS out to 1200 yards effectiveness out to 800yards......i as well have heard the same so here is what i have learned so far please correct me.........because i know there is more info out there than i am considering 20" is the optimal choice for punching and plinging out to 1000 yards or more if your good enough 20" barrels will only give your shot effectiveness out to 800 maybe a little more 18" barrels...........now what about these? I see more MK12's or stylistically similar builds with 18 inch barrels.................so why do people pic these and what can they do? |
|
Quoted:
ok so after getting back from work i can see the 1k people start to trickle in......... just like i said. we KNOW they can hit shit out at 1k i know, you know ok, and i stated earlier that the longest ranges i really ever get to go play at only get out to 600 yards. and then we have experts on here saying HITS out to 1200 yards effectiveness out to 800yards......i as well have heard the same so here is what i have learned so far please correct me.........because i know there is more info out there than i am considering 20" is the optimal choice for punching and plinging out to 1000 yards or more if your good enough 20" barrels will only give your shot effectiveness out to 800 maybe a little more 18" barrels...........now what about these? I see more MK12's or stylistically similar builds with 18 inch barrels.................so why do people pic these and what can they do? The longer the barrel the better. As long as it has a longer gas system. When using a rifle length gas system the velocity difference between 18" 20" and 22" is minimal. The reason 18" is so popular is because its smaller, easier to handle and with a rifle gas system gets 20-40fps less then a 20" barrel. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
ok so after getting back from work i can see the 1k people start to trickle in......... just like i said. we KNOW they can hit shit out at 1k i know, you know ok, and i stated earlier that the longest ranges i really ever get to go play at only get out to 600 yards. and then we have experts on here saying HITS out to 1200 yards effectiveness out to 800yards......i as well have heard the same so here is what i have learned so far please correct me.........because i know there is more info out there than i am considering 20" is the optimal choice for punching and plinging out to 1000 yards or more if your good enough 20" barrels will only give your shot effectiveness out to 800 maybe a little more 18" barrels...........now what about these? I see more MK12's or stylistically similar builds with 18 inch barrels.................so why do people pic these and what can they do? The longer the barrel the better. As long as it has a longer gas system. When using a rifle length gas system the velocity difference between 18" 20" and 22" is minimal. The reason 18" is so popular is because its smaller, easier to handle and with a rifle gas system gets 20-40fps less then a 20" barrel. you sir are cool! because you answer so many of my questions! 
but seriously.........this is VERY useful information..........you see I guess im not the only guy out there but i have always had a problem with barrel lengths......at any length for any caliber for any application...........i just want the shortest most effective barrel out there (every gun is a tool, and every tool has its purpose, and you don't invent tools to fudge multiple jobs.....you use another proper tool) i always go back to that principal when i think about barrel lengths, how much velocity they deliver and how far i am shooting....no more, no less but i digress we have stated 20" for optimal distances im looking for 600-800 (maybe 850) yards so 20" is not needed so per the information and advice i have hear i now know im looking for a 18" barrel to build my platform around |
| I know this has been said before but if I needed to reach out to 1000 yards, I'd go with a 308. I glanced at the energy difference between 223 & 308 at 1000 yds. The 223 (55 grain) had 92 ft/lbs & the 308 (150 grain) had 546 ft/lbs. Also the 223 is effected alot more by bullet drop & wind than heavier bullets. |
|
Quoted: If you get a 20" I don't think 1000yards is going to be doable. If its going to be a target rifle why not get a longer better barrel instead if being cool and following an arfcom fad? Because of the cartridge. Once all the powder is burned and the bullet stops accelerating, there is no advantage to further barrel length. With 5.56 this happens between about 20" and 21" for most loads. This means that the extra barrel length is nothing but dead weight and a potential for reduced accuracy. If all else is equal, shorter barrels tend to be more accurate due to better harmonics. It is not an arfcom fad. It is a practical truth. It is hard for a lot of people to believe - I had a guy here once talking to me about a first .22 pistol for his son. He wanted at least a 12" barrel. I kept trying to convince him to get something practical for a young boy learning to shoot, but all he would say is "I don't know anything about that. I just know longer barrel: more accurate." After he repeated that about 50 times I gave up. As far as getting a .308, if he wants to do it with 5.56, that is not a problem, he can shoot long range with 5.56. It does not have to have a practical purpose if it is just for fun and to learn a new skill. Plus if he wanted the most practical calibers for shooting long range without getting into magnum-type chamberings, he would want to look at 6mm, 6.5mm, or 7mm, since these calibers can shoot the best long range bullets for the caliber. .308 cannot shoot the best weights for long range because they are to heavy.
|
|
Quoted:
The Porter Cup Trophy match at Camp Perry is shot at 1k yds. with service rifles. An AR rifle was won it numerous times, so it can be done. I shot a 1k match over 10 years ago with my AR service rifle. Scored a 368 out of a possible 400. Here's what I used: free floated Kreiger 20" 1 in 7.7" barrel 80 gr SMK handloaded with 25 grs. Varget, LC case and RP 7 1/2 primer 1/2 min. sights two stage trigger FWIW the 2 other rifles in service rifle class at that match were M1A's. Both rifles had their 168 SMK's keyholing into the target. If I ever do it again, I'd use either Berger or JLK VLD bullets Not shocking. 168's really start to blow at about 750-825 yards. Those shooters you referenced learned what they Army/Marines/Air Force shooting teams learned over 20 years ago.... Use the 175 SMK. OP, just because you can shoot a .223 at 1K doesn't mean you should, and its so far from optimal its not even funny. Also, the bullets most appropriate for this distance shooting will weigh 80 grains, so I think you have to single load. Plenty of AR's can get you to 1K though. Caliber's I'd look at (all with decent availablity): .243 (Pretty damn fast, new bullets for it are fantastic, spcifically the 107 DTAC) .260 (This one is catching on quick, a necked down .308, with a GREAT ballistic coeffcient. This will take a capable stock/shooter out past 1200 meters, easily.) .308 (The old stand by, I won't even explain it!) |
|
Quoted:
Zero at 50 or 100 and know your come-ups, either in mils, or MOA. holds. A shooter that knows their actual come-ups when shooting distance for accuracy will beat a "hold over" shooter any way of the week. Wanna put rounds on a torso target at 600 yards, or a car-sized target a 800 yards? Get an ACOG. Wanna pop a basketball at 1K? Get a good scope and learn your dope. |
|
If you had the right setup and right shooting conditions, I think its doable to get to 1K.
If you could get some 77gr SMK handloads to 2800fps or better, I think it could be done. (this would be a hot load) The bullet would be going subsonic around 900 yards but in the right conditions it should make it to 1K and still be stable. |
|
Quoted:
ok so after getting back from work i can see the 1k people start to trickle in......... just like i said. we KNOW they can hit shit out at 1k i know, you know ok, and i stated earlier that the longest ranges i really ever get to go play at only get out to 600 yards. and then we have experts on here saying HITS out to 1200 yards effectiveness out to 800yards......i as well have heard the same so here is what i have learned so far please correct me.........because i know there is more info out there than i am considering 20" is the optimal choice for punching and plinging out to 1000 yards or more if your good enough 20" barrels will only give your shot effectiveness out to 800 maybe a little more 18" barrels...........now what about these? I see more MK12's or stylistically similar builds with 18 inch barrels.................so why do people pic these and what can they do? What do you mean by "shot effectiveness"? If you mean hunting/killing, then no 800 is still way way past the effective range of the 556 round. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
ok so after getting back from work i can see the 1k people start to trickle in......... just like i said. we KNOW they can hit shit out at 1k i know, you know ok, and i stated earlier that the longest ranges i really ever get to go play at only get out to 600 yards. and then we have experts on here saying HITS out to 1200 yards effectiveness out to 800yards......i as well have heard the same so here is what i have learned so far please correct me.........because i know there is more info out there than i am considering 20" is the optimal choice for punching and plinging out to 1000 yards or more if your good enough 20" barrels will only give your shot effectiveness out to 800 maybe a little more 18" barrels...........now what about these? I see more MK12's or stylistically similar builds with 18 inch barrels.................so why do people pic these and what can they do? What do you mean by "shot effectiveness"? If you mean hunting/killing, then no 800 is still way way past the effective range of the 556 round. At 800 yards, a 77gr bullet (MK 262) would be traveling +/-1200fps with +/-245.5ft/lb of energy. Almost twice the energy of a .22lr at point blank. That seem pretty effective to me. I could be wrong though. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
ok so after getting back from work i can see the 1k people start to trickle in......... just like i said. we KNOW they can hit shit out at 1k i know, you know ok, and i stated earlier that the longest ranges i really ever get to go play at only get out to 600 yards. and then we have experts on here saying HITS out to 1200 yards effectiveness out to 800yards......i as well have heard the same so here is what i have learned so far please correct me.........because i know there is more info out there than i am considering 20" is the optimal choice for punching and plinging out to 1000 yards or more if your good enough 20" barrels will only give your shot effectiveness out to 800 maybe a little more 18" barrels...........now what about these? I see more MK12's or stylistically similar builds with 18 inch barrels.................so why do people pic these and what can they do? What do you mean by "shot effectiveness"? If you mean hunting/killing, then no 800 is still way way past the effective range of the 556 round. At 800 yards, a 77gr bullet (MK 262) would be traveling +/-1200fps with +/-245.5ft/lb of energy. Almost twice the energy of a .22lr at point blank. That seem pretty effective to me. I could be wrong though. Theres a hell of a lot more to a clean, effective shot than whats on paper in regards to velocity and energy. You wont get fragmentation at 1200 FPS. You might as well run around with an ice pick. See here. So you switch it out to a hunting bullet, you still need 2000 FPS as a rule of thumb for proper expansion (velocity requirement depends on bullet type). No matter how you want to cut it 800 yards is well beyond the effective range of the 556 round for hunting purposes. In fact, 800 yards is more in the realm of the big stuff like 300 Win Mag if you want to hunt and even that might not really be properly suited for those ranges. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
If you get a 20" I don't think 1000yards is going to be doable. If its going to be a target rifle why not get a longer better barrel instead if being cool and following an arfcom fad? Because of the cartridge. Once all the powder is burned and the bullet stops accelerating, there is no advantage to further barrel length. With 5.56 this happens between about 20" and 21" for most loads. This means that the extra barrel length is nothing but dead weight and a potential for reduced accuracy. If all else is equal, shorter barrels tend to be more accurate due to better harmonics. It is not an arfcom fad. It is a practical truth. It is hard for a lot of people to believe - I had a guy here once talking to me about a first .22 pistol for his son. He wanted at least a 12" barrel. I kept trying to convince him to get something practical for a young boy learning to shoot, but all he would say is "I don't know anything about that. I just know longer barrel: more accurate." After he repeated that about 50 times I gave up. As far as getting a .308, if he wants to do it with 5.56, that is not a problem, he can shoot long range with 5.56. It does not have to have a practical purpose if it is just for fun and to learn a new skill. Plus if he wanted the most practical calibers for shooting long range without getting into magnum-type chamberings, he would want to look at 6mm, 6.5mm, or 7mm, since these calibers can shoot the best long range bullets for the caliber. .308 cannot shoot the best weights for long range because they are to heavy. Then why do companies such as hornady have much higher velocities in their 24" barrels they use to make their ammo look better? |
|
Quoted: Then why do companies such as hornady have much higher velocities in their 24" barrels they use to make their ammo look better? Because they use special test barrels. It is not the barrel length, but the fact that they are using very precisely made barrels. Few barrels will mach the advertised velocity if the advertised velocity came from these test barrels. If they used a 20" test barrel, their velocity would still be higher than a 20" factory barrel. |
|
Quoted:
It takes a good shooter whos very comfortable with his or hers gun. A high quality barrel, scope rings, scope, free float handguard, and match ammunition can help. Dan nailed it. Note the FIRST thing he listed was a shooter with SKILLS. If you don't have the required level of skill no amount of money you spend on a quality gun, optics, and ammo will help. |
|
Quoted:
The Porter Cup Trophy match at Camp Perry is shot at 1k yds. with service rifles. An AR rifle was won it numerous times, so it can be done. I shot a 1k match over 10 years ago with my AR service rifle. Scored a 368 out of a possible 400. Here's what I used: free floated Kreiger 20" 1 in 7.7" barrel 80 gr SMK handloaded with 25 grs. Varget, LC case and RP 7 1/2 primer 1/2 min. sights two stage trigger FWIW the 2 other rifles in service rifle class at that match were M1A's. Both rifles had their 168 SMK's keyholing into the target. If I ever do it again, I'd use either Berger or JLK VLD bullets I SHOT IN THIS BEFORE!!! Yes you can shoot paper or steel at these distances. Honestly though the issues for me are wind. this cartridge just cant handle wind at distance out past 5-600. you really need to eliminate variables. it will do the job. Ive got some pics ill post up of my COLLINSCUSTOMLRT600 shooting at 1k. and i put 28 of 30 on a 3'square gong. it can be done. will you actually be able to hit a sillouette on a regular basis? NOPE unless you name is "bob lee swagger" |
|
Quoted: Theres a hell of a lot more to a clean, effective shot than whats on paper in regards to velocity and energy. You wont get fragmentation at 1200 FPS. You might as well run around with an ice pick. See here. So you switch it out to a hunting bullet, you still need 2000 FPS as a rule of thumb for proper expansion (velocity requirement depends on bullet type). No matter how you want to cut it 800 yards is well beyond the effective range of the 556 round for hunting purposes. In fact, 800 yards is more in the realm of the big stuff like 300 Win Mag if you want to hunt and even that might not really be properly suited for those ranges. At 600 meters, the 5.56 will still be pretty effective for hunting with a good fragmenting bullet like the Mk 262. At up to about 300m the TSX would be a great choice. From 600m to 1000 meters, with Mk 262 (or the Black Hills civilian equivalent) it can be effective against human targets in a combat situation, or paper. Fragmentation will begin to be less dramatic down to none, but you can still get hits on targets, and at 800m I don't have to kill the guy dead right now. But for hunting, you need to be able to get good hits and drop the animal quickly. Wind is a problem, too. No mater the caliber, you have to be able to hit, kill, and recover the animal. So regardless of the caliber, a lot more goes into it. You can kill an animal at 800m with a .308. Bullet selection becomes critical at that kind of range. Most don't take many shots like that even when they have the necessary skill, since so many other factors come into play. Can I find the exact spot the animal was standing in order to track it? Can I get to it or will I be cut off because of terrain? Can I judge the wind correctly? 800m and up generally is the realm of the magnums, like .300s or .338s, since the only advantage they have over standard powered cartridges is higher velocities at these ranges and the ability to push heavier bullets. I have hunted caribou with an accurate .30 rifle capable of long range shots, and had to get within 75m of the herd because wind was up to 60 knots and there is no way I have the skill to take a long shot in that kind of wind.
|
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Theres a hell of a lot more to a clean, effective shot than whats on paper in regards to velocity and energy. You wont get fragmentation at 1200 FPS. You might as well run around with an ice pick. See here. So you switch it out to a hunting bullet, you still need 2000 FPS as a rule of thumb for proper expansion (velocity requirement depends on bullet type). No matter how you want to cut it 800 yards is well beyond the effective range of the 556 round for hunting purposes. In fact, 800 yards is more in the realm of the big stuff like 300 Win Mag if you want to hunt and even that might not really be properly suited for those ranges. At 600 meters, the 5.56 will still be pretty effective for hunting with a good fragmenting bullet like the Mk 262. At up to about 300m the TSX would be a great choice. From 600m to 1000 meters, with Mk 262 (or the Black Hills civilian equivalent) it can be effective against human targets in a combat situation, or paper. Fragmentation will begin to be less dramatic down to none, but you can still get hits on targets, and at 800m I don't have to kill the guy dead right now. But for hunting, you need to be able to get good hits and drop the animal quickly. Wind is a problem, too. No mater the caliber, you have to be able to hit, kill, and recover the animal. So regardless of the caliber, a lot more goes into it. You can kill an animal at 800m with a .308. Bullet selection becomes critical at that kind of range. Most don't take many shots like that even when they have the necessary skill, since so many other factors come into play. Can I find the exact spot the animal was standing in order to track it? Can I get to it or will I be cut off because of terrain? Can I judge the wind correctly? 800m and up generally is the realm of the magnums, like .300s or .338s, since the only advantage they have over standard powered cartridges is higher velocities at these ranges and the ability to push heavier bullets. I have hunted caribou with an accurate .30 rifle capable of long range shots, and had to get within 75m of the herd because wind was up to 60 knots and there is no way I have the skill to take a long shot in that kind of wind. I agree with most of what you said except the first part. See below. If the information is accurate and you need 2300 FPS for fragmentation you really should engage past 2-300 yards. Which is about the reasonable range with a good hunting bullet too. Which means the effective hunting range is around 300 yards for a 556/223 round, barring humans paper and steel. 
|
| Mk 262 tends to fragment well at lower velocities. I would take a 600m shot on a caribou with it if all conditions were right. No further, and conditions would have to be really right. A moose would have to be a close head or neck shot. A bear would be a 3m shot down out of the tree. |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - long range ARs? what does it take? (Page 1 of 2)
AR Sponsor