AR Sponsor
Posted: 2/6/2011 1:03:31 PM EDT
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Right now I have like 12-13 AR's, 7 of which are in .223. That's just pointless I've relized. What I'd like to do is narrow down my 223 kit to 2 rifles, a 14.5" or 16" meant for use out to 300 yards ... and a 20" for use from 50-500 yards. I'd like them both to be relatively lightweight. And I'd like to keep the budget for each at $1500, and buying slightly used is no problem. 1-2 MOA with military ammo is fine, these won't be precision rigs ... I have others for that job.
FYI, I want flashlights on both rifles. And I shoot Appleseed style, GI web sling secured at the back-bottom of the stock and bottom of the rifle under the gas block. I want them both to be nice enough that I won't think about upgrades, but no expensive parts just because they're cool ... function is #1. Let me lay out my current thinking, and please give me some feedback. I found a good deal on a used 16" Noveske midlength Recce upper, Vltor MUR upper and SWS rail. Normally I'd consider this config bling, but the price makes it feasible, and I like the M249 barrel for durability. I'm thinking an EOTech of Aimpoint micro with BUIS. I'm also thinking of cutting the barrel down to 14.5" and having my AAC Blackout pinned on - how much weight will that save me? I also have a LMT lower with 2-stage trigger and SOPMOD that I'll probably put on this upper. My questions for this setup are: - How much weight will the 14.5" save over a 16" barrel? - How should I go about deciding between an EOTech vs an Aimpoint Micro? And would a magnifier be worth considering? I have no problem banging plates all day long with irons at 300 yards, and since this rifle will be for out to that range max, I'm thinking magnifier is unnecessary. - Considering I shoot Appleseed style as I mentioned above, any ideas for setting up a handstop to work in conjunction with my sling use? I'm unsure if I'll have a fore grip on this rifle, leaning towards not. - Any input on a flashlight setup for it? For the 20" I have a CMMG Govt profile barrel that I'll use, it's accurate enough that I shot a 226/250 at an Appleseed event ... that's plenty good for me. I'm thinking about using the new Rifle Length MOE handguard for lightweight, and it has plenty of room to accomdate accesories I'd want. I would probably have a front flip FSB, and rear BUIS mounted under an optic in the 1-4x or 1.5-5x range. I'd probably use a Carbine stock for it, since there's just no rifle stock with a cheekweld that I like, and the PRS is too heavy. This rifle will probably have a Geiselle combat trigger in it on a MEGA lower I have sitting around, and a Daniel Defense upper. Questions for it are: - What lightweight scope mount options are there? I want light and as low as possible, I shoot with a tight cheekweld and don't want to adjust my position to work with a higher mount. I want the bare minimum height added to clear a low profile rear BUIS. Since this will be a primarily optic rifle, quick disconnect isn't mandatory. - I'll probably use the same handstop setup as I'll have on the shorter rifle - Would a Scout flashlight setup be the way to go for this rifle? I'm thinking the Mount-n-slot setup for the MOE. What else should I think about here? I want to build these rifles and be done with it for awhile, just concentrate on training with them and getting to know each of them as well as possible. Thanks for reading! |
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You might look at some of the free float tubes out there if your planning on slinging up with your rifle, more so with the 20 inch rifle.
Most free float rigs also will have multiple mounts to put a sling, making a hand-stop unnecessary. So you can kill two birds with one stone, a sling length thats fit to you personally AND you wont be putting tension on the barrel by slinging up. Im not sure it would be needed on the 14.5 rifle though, depending on how tight you run your sling. Rob |
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Quoted: 1-2 MOA out of 3-4 MOA military ammo is a dream. Start with a realistic expectation and work from there.1-2 MOA with military ammo is fine, U.S. military specifications for M193 Ball ammunition require a 55 |
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If "only" two rifles, I would do a 14.5 Lightweight barrel with a pinned flash hider of your choosing. Put a red dot on this rifle. For the second one, I would go with a 16" Gov't profile barrel with a free float rail and a 3x or 4x ACOG. For 0-300 yards, your bases would be covered. |
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1-2 MOA out of 3-4 MOA military ammo is a dream. Start with a realistic expectation and work from there.1-2 MOA with military ammo is fine, That's your input? Gee thanks ... I've earned 2 Rifleman patches with Wolf ammo, I think me expectations are just fine. |
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If "only" two rifles, I would do a 14.5 Lightweight barrel with a pinned flash hider of your choosing. Put a red dot on this rifle. For the second one, I would go with a 16" Gov't profile barrel with a free float rail and a 3x or 4x ACOG. For 0-300 yards, your bases would be covered. Well I'll have lots of other rifles, I just want to consolidate my AR's in 223 down to 2 rifles. I'd love to have an ACOG, I've just never been able to use one extensively ... and there are so many choices for them. And ACOG on my 20" is certainly an option, just need one with a decent BDC reticle and good exit pupil and eye relief. |
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1-2 MOA out of 3-4 MOA military ammo is a dream. Start with a realistic expectation and work from there.1-2 MOA with military ammo is fine, That's your input? Gee thanks ... I've earned 2 Rifleman patches with Wolf ammo, I think me expectations are just fine. 
Your'e a rifleman with 2 patches with wolf ammo. Good luck |
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1-2 MOA out of 3-4 MOA military ammo is a dream. Start with a realistic expectation and work from there.1-2 MOA with military ammo is fine, That's your input? Gee thanks ... I've earned 2 Rifleman patches with Wolf ammo, I think me expectations are just fine. The government supplied you with Wolf ammo? I want my tax money back... |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: 1-2 MOA out of 3-4 MOA military ammo is a dream. Start with a realistic expectation and work from there.1-2 MOA with military ammo is fine, That's your input? Gee thanks ... I've earned 2 Rifleman patches with Wolf ammo, I think me expectations are just fine. Your post said military ammo. Wolf is not military ammo. And if your talking .223 wolf, with possibly the exception of wolf gold 75gr OTM (PPU) then I raise the BS flag. I will believe .22 Wolf MT. I've qualified Marksman 4 times in the US Military. I know the limit of military ammo. Your rifleman patches are a good accomplishment and congratulations, but they simply do not impress me, no offense. |
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Quoted: Well I'll have lots of other rifles, I just want to consolidate my AR's in 223 down to 2 rifles. I'd love to have an ACOG, I've just never been able to use one extensively ... and there are so many choices for them. And ACOG on my 20" is certainly an option, just need one with a decent BDC reticle and good exit pupil and eye relief. Reasons for my recommendations is I've recently found myself in a similar situation. I had all kinds of rifles, and some had overlapping purposes. When it came to 5.56mm, I finally settled on 3 ARs,; a Colt M4 with an Aimpoint, a lightweight 14.5" middy from Daniel Defense with an EoTech XPS, and a 16" BCM middy with an ACOG. I'm not convinced that 5.56 can do EVERYTHING, but it can cover a lot of ground, as I'm sure you know. Don't let the ACOG options overwhelm you. Almost all of them can be made to work on any non-NFA barrel length. Worse case scenario is you're off by 2 inches when you get out to 500-600 yards. Of course, at those distances the .30 caliber guns make very strong arguments... |
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1-2 MOA out of 3-4 MOA military ammo is a dream. Start with a realistic expectation and work from there.1-2 MOA with military ammo is fine, That's your input? Gee thanks ... I've earned 2 Rifleman patches with Wolf ammo, I think me expectations are just fine. Your post said military ammo. Wolf is not military ammo. And if your talking .223 wolf, with possibly the exception of wolf gold 75gr OTM (PPU) then I raise the BS flag. I will believe .22 Wolf MT. I've qualified Marksman 4 times in the US Military. I know the limit of military ammo. Your rifleman patches are a good accomplishment and congratulations, but they simply do not impress me, no offense. Why are you trying to nit pick my post? I spent 30 minutes typiing out my original post, trying to be as clear as possible ... yet you focus only on one sentence that has little if any bearing on my point? I know perfectly well what certain types of ammo are capable of. My only point in the oringal post is that acceptable accuracy is all I'm concerned with in my 20" rifle, with even the worst ammo I'm able to shoot just fine. So I don't want or need expensive barrel suggestions. So please if you have nothing to add, just move on. |
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Well I'll have lots of other rifles, I just want to consolidate my AR's in 223 down to 2 rifles. I'd love to have an ACOG, I've just never been able to use one extensively ... and there are so many choices for them. And ACOG on my 20" is certainly an option, just need one with a decent BDC reticle and good exit pupil and eye relief. Reasons for my recommendations is I've recently found myself in a similar situation. I had all kinds of rifles, and some had overlapping purposes. When it came to 5.56mm, I finally settled on 3 ARs,; a Colt M4 with an Aimpoint, a lightweight 14.5" middy from Daniel Defense with an EoTech XPS, and a 16" BCM middy with an ACOG. I'm not convinced that 5.56 can do EVERYTHING, but it can cover a lot of ground, as I'm sure you know. Don't let the ACOG options overwhelm you. Almost all of them can be made to work on any non-NFA barrel length. Worse case scenario is you're off by 2 inches when you get out to 500-600 yards. Of course, at those distances the .30 caliber guns make very strong arguments... I think I'm thinking along the same lines as you ... have either 14.5" or 16" and a 20". The reason I'd like a 20" is that .223 really needs that extra velocity to retain any killing power beyond 300 yards, and I want my 'longer' .223 AR to be good out to 500. As far as the BDC, my plan is to choose an optic and then build a load around the BDC calibration. That's part of my simplification plan too, settle on one load for each rifle and load up a few thousand of each. Then get to know that rifle/load combination as well as I possibly can. I've done that for my 16" and 20" 6.8SPC rifles and it was a very good move. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: 1-2 MOA out of 3-4 MOA military ammo is a dream. Start with a realistic expectation and work from there.1-2 MOA with military ammo is fine, That's your input? Gee thanks ... I've earned 2 Rifleman patches with Wolf ammo, I think me expectations are just fine. Your post said military ammo. Wolf is not military ammo. And if your talking .223 wolf, with possibly the exception of wolf gold 75gr OTM (PPU) then I raise the BS flag. I will believe .22 Wolf MT. I've qualified Marksman 4 times in the US Military. I know the limit of military ammo. Your rifleman patches are a good accomplishment and congratulations, but they simply do not impress me, no offense. Why are you trying to nit pick my post? I spent 30 minutes typiing out my original post, trying to be as clear as possible ... yet you focus only on one sentence that has little if any bearing on my point? I know perfectly well what certain types of ammo are capable of. My only point in the oringal post is that acceptable accuracy is all I'm concerned with in my 20" rifle, with even the worst ammo I'm able to shoot just fine. So I don't want or need expensive barrel suggestions. So please if you have nothing to add, just move on. I'm not trying to nit-pic anything. You asked for help and I commented on the first thing that was a problem. You refused to accept it. Your OP is anything but clear. Fact is that wasn't even the first thing. First what will each rifle be used for? As for the distances you mentioned any mid level AR is capable of covering those just fine so I assume these are for a special purpose. You mention that you shoot appleseed but also want to have a light. What is the point? night time appleseed shoots??? Lights are good in a CQB situation or home / self defense, neither of which is really suited for a 14.5-20 inch barreled rifle. The whole M249 barrel is pure sales hype. The steel is the same, the chrome may be thicker but a standard CB barrel will last 40K rounds to begin with. The problem is with throat erosion anyway not the bore. The weight savings between the 16 and 14.5 barrel is pointless if your going to add it back with "extra" chrome plating. Your question on dot or eotech is a personal choice. Each is a different type of sight and one may not work for you at all. Some people have problems with a dot due to astigmatism. you need to use each type and see what works for you. You ask about lightweight scope mounts for a 20". Without knowing what optic and buis you plan on using that is like asking what color is best. The min. height is going to depend on the objective lens size of the scope you use as well as the height of the folded buis used. Without that info the question is moot. Your last post is concern over "killing" power past 300 yards. Based on the fact that the only ammo you mentioned is military ammo you have no need to be concerned with the killing power at 300 yards. There is little to none. Both M193 and M855 rely on fragmentation to achieve lethality. That fragmentation is dependent on speed. That magic number is 2700 FPS for reliable fragmentation. M193 out of a 16" barrel drops below this speed at 140-150m. M855 at 90-95m. The distance is a little more for a 20", 190-200m for M193 and 140-150m for M855. It drops by about 50m a 14.5" barrel. So if you define your usage better you'll get better answers. And don't get all uppity when your told that your expectations are not realistic. If your looking for oohs and aahs with warm fuzzy feelings look elsewhere. This is a tech forum not a mutual masturbation society. |
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1-2 MOA out of 3-4 MOA military ammo is a dream. Start with a realistic expectation and work from there.1-2 MOA with military ammo is fine, That's your input? Gee thanks ... I've earned 2 Rifleman patches with Wolf ammo, I think me expectations are just fine. Your post said military ammo. Wolf is not military ammo. And if your talking .223 wolf, with possibly the exception of wolf gold 75gr OTM (PPU) then I raise the BS flag. I will believe .22 Wolf MT. I've qualified Marksman 4 times in the US Military. I know the limit of military ammo. Your rifleman patches are a good accomplishment and congratulations, but they simply do not impress me, no offense. Why are you trying to nit pick my post? I spent 30 minutes typiing out my original post, trying to be as clear as possible ... yet you focus only on one sentence that has little if any bearing on my point? I know perfectly well what certain types of ammo are capable of. My only point in the oringal post is that acceptable accuracy is all I'm concerned with in my 20" rifle, with even the worst ammo I'm able to shoot just fine. So I don't want or need expensive barrel suggestions. So please if you have nothing to add, just move on. I'm not trying to nit-pic anything. You asked for help and I commented on the first thing that was a problem. You refused to accept it. Your OP is anything but clear. Fact is that wasn't even the first thing. First what will each rifle be used for? As for the distances you mentioned any mid level AR is capable of covering those just fine so I assume these are for a special purpose. You mention that you shoot appleseed but also want to have a light. What is the point? night time appleseed shoots??? Lights are good in a CQB situation or home / self defense, neither of which is really suited for a 14.5-20 inch barreled rifle. The whole M249 barrel is pure sales hype. The steel is the same, the chrome may be thicker but a standard CB barrel will last 40K rounds to begin with. The problem is with throat erosion anyway not the bore. The weight savings between the 16 and 14.5 barrel is pointless if your going to add it back with "extra" chrome plating. Your question on dot or eotech is a personal choice. Each is a different type of sight and one may not work for you at all. Some people have problems with a dot due to astigmatism. you need to use each type and see what works for you. You ask about lightweight scope mounts for a 20". Without knowing what optic and buis you plan on using that is like asking what color is best. The min. height is going to depend on the objective lens size of the scope you use as well as the height of the folded buis used. Without that info the question is moot. Your last post is concern over "killing" power past 300 yards. Based on the fact that the only ammo you mentioned is military ammo you have no need to be concerned with the killing power at 300 yards. There is little to none. Both M193 and M855 rely on fragmentation to achieve lethality. That fragmentation is dependent on speed. That magic number is 2700 FPS for reliable fragmentation. M193 out of a 16" barrel drops below this speed at 140-150m. M855 at 90-95m. The distance is a little more for a 20", 190-200m for M193 and 140-150m for M855. It drops by about 50m a 14.5" barrel. So if you define your usage better you'll get better answers. And don't get all uppity when your told that your expectations are not realistic. If your looking for oohs and aahs with warm fuzzy feelings look elsewhere. This is a tech forum not a mutual masturbation society. At least some people still keep it real in Tech |
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At least some people still keep it real in Tech That's keeping it real? Guess somebody should let the world know that chrome plating "adds the weight back". Don't worry about replying, I can figure it out on my own. Just thought a little input would be fun. |
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Quoted: Quoted: At least some people still keep it real in Tech That's keeping it real? Guess somebody should let the world know that chrome plating "adds the weight back". Don't worry about replying, I can figure it out on my own. Just thought a little input would be fun. And that wolf is match ammo, LOL |
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It might help everyone if you posted pics of all the ARs you own along with some general specs.
Then I bet we could pick and chose uppers/lowers/parts from all of the ones you have and build the 2 like you want....without spending any money at all. AND, even rearrange all the others to platforms that will sell the easier since I assume that is what you mean by thinning the herd. Just a thought. |
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It's not out of line to point out that military ammo, particularly the 62gr, isn't the most accurate. 1-2 MOA out of actual military ammo, or Federal XM-whatever reject ammo, is sort of pushing it.
However, that's different from saying that military-like ammo, with an FMJ projectile, can't do it. Even a half-assed handload with a good 55gr FMJ is likely to come in under 2 MOA if you can shoot. OP shouldn't run into any amount of trouble with this, given his budget. I'd pass on the 20" gov't profile barrel. If you're going to use one for longer shots, you might as well make it a good stainless barrel. There are all sorts of good barrels available that are 18-20". If the weight is really, truly an issue, then match the gov't profile with a nice light free float (TRX Extreme 13', Daniel Defense M4 12') and cut down the FSB, if it has a fixed standard one. The lighter free floats are as light or lighter in weight than the plastic handguards. Toss on a stock that is comfortable - you already seem to know what you want there. Don't cheap out on the optic - choose quality over bells and whistles. Something like a Super Sniper 3-9x, 1-4x, or a Trijicon Accupoint would probably work great. You're probably not going to save much weight on the mounts, so might as well buy quality *cough* LaRue *cough* For the other rifle, that's easy. Normally I'd just say pick a quality 16" midlength barrel from some place like Daniel Defense or Bravo Company in pencil or gov't profile, whichever is your personal preference, and put a lightweight rail on it (same suggestions as above). If you find a good deal on a Noveske upper, that's great too. Aimpoint all the way - they just work, and won't let you down. If you can hit plates all day at 300, you don't need a magnifier to hit them all day with an Aimpoint either. Throw it in a LaRue mount. As for the lights, there are a million lights available out there to use. Whatever you choose, you can chop off more weight by omitting a vertical foregrip on either rifle and mounting the light at 10 o'clock (assuming you're right handed) and activating it with your thumb. My personal light preference is one of the lights from Fenix (Tk-11) or Olight that can take both Surefire batteries and 18650 rechargable cells - you'll actually use the light if you're not burning money to run it. Candlepower Forums are your friend on this. You can get a light, a couple rechargeable batteries, and a charger for less than the cost of a Surefire light. |
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