We'll see.  Time will tell if Spikes really deserves all the hype it's getting right now.  I'm not saying that Spikes is a bad manufacturer,far from it I'm sure, but there are things that Paul does at BCM that go above and beyond what almost all others do.  It's not always as black and white a some may think.

So, to sum it up:

S&W makes a great gun… keep it and save your pennies for the Spikes.
This is ARFCOM and as the saying goes “GET BOTH”

And

Spikes and BCM are equal in quality and some of the BCM fan boys heads are spinning because of it.
They can't provide anything as proof that this is not the case other than (Pat Rogers shot a shit load of rounds out of a BCM without a failure), which is no surprise BCM is good shit, but how that reflects negatively on Spikes is beyond me and most of the rest of us…

/thread

So, what are the shades of gray, as you see them?

Why must you be so vague? Comments such as "do your own research" and mysterious references to some guy named "Paul" have absolutely no place in a tech forum. We should be sticking to technical issues (the facts) .

The only assertion you have to back up your claim that BCM is "better" then Spikes is that Pat Rogers put a BCM through a torture test.
This of course proves nothing other then the BCM went through that test , it says nothing about Spikes other then Pat did not do the same thing with a Spike rifle.

Someone has been spending too much time on that 'other' website. I think he just copied and pasted what is high lighted.

Really??  Please show me where I copied from??  I'm actually very interested.  Thanks.

Do your own research; the post that you copied it from is out there.

I have used a lot of Spike's products at a machine gun shoot where they brought all of their personal and store owned toys out and let other FL HTF Arfcommers shoot them. It was an absolute blast, and I had zero issues with any of the guns I shot, suppressed or not, full auto or semi, etc. All of them performed great and hit steel better than I can.

I've never used a S&W MP15, so I don't know anything on that front. My next AR build (probably the SBR project) will be a Spike's lower and BCM upper.

Felt like I could add while I said Spike's was technically better than a S&W... There is absolutely nothing wrong with S&W and I wouldn't hesitate to own one of their rifles.

I own a BCM and you're probably right but it would take a forensic metalurgist to break down the components to prove it.
I seriously doubt the average shooter would be able dicern the difference just by shooting it.

Q.C., Q.C., Q.C.,

Since you dont know the definition for FACT, here it is for you.

fact [ fakt ] (plural facts)
noun 
Definition:
 1. something known to be true: something that can be shown to be true, to exist, or to have happened
2. truth or reality of something: the truth or actual existence of something, as opposed to the supposition of something or a belief about something
based on fact
3. piece of information: a piece of information, e.g. a statistic or a statement of the truth

Since Pat Rogers basic BCM  filthy #14 is documented and is very real it's is a FACT.  Last I read the round count was a little above 36,000 on the same standard non CHF barrel.

Here's some documented facts:

Link-  http://www.03designgroup.com/reviews/bcm-complete-ar15-upper-and-lower-receivers
*****************************************************************************************************************************************
"Filthy #14 is the most used, and has (as 12-24-09) 28905 rounds down range. The barrel is original. It has never had a brush put through it. -At 16,400 rounds bolt lug cracked. Replaced the bolt carrier group

-At approximately 26,000 rounds fired a 5 shot 50m group that went into 0.5". This might not be that tight at 100 meters.

-At 26,450 rds had 3 failures to extract. Replaced BCG and cleaned gun for the first time

We use only SLip2000 EWL for lube and Slip 2000 725 to clean.

**All of the rounds were fired during class (at the rate of approximately 1,250 rounds every 3 days)**

I do not recommend allowing the gun to go this long without PM (preventive maintenance). However, we wanted to see how far we could take this particular gun (#14) without being burdened by the myth of meticulous cleaning."

But you don't know that Spikes won't do that until you have actually tried it. BTW I don't own a BCM or a Spikes so this isn't a dig on either. I do however own an S&W M&P and I love it. More than enough for me, although I did give it a new trigger and look forward to replacing the bolt carrier group.

If you're going to accuse me of such blatant plagiarism with absolutely nothing to back it up, than you can kiss my ass.  I'm through here.

But has anybody tried it????  That's my point.  Like i said, time will tell if Spikes deserves all the hype.  At this point in time it's unfair to say Spikes is just as good, because it hasn't been proven.

It's just as unfair to say BCM is better then Spikes , as you did .

The best you could say is BCM has gone through a particular test and Spikes has not. I have seen some impressive videos of spikes , like the one on AIM's site http://www.aimsurplus.com/blog/ At this point there are no facts saying one is better then the other. In time if some real head to head tests are conducted, that may change.

Simply declaring BCM as "better" then Spikes is erroneous at best, and reeks of Kool Aid guzzling .

Yep.  BCM may in fact be better, even if only slightly, but there are simply no facts to prove that at this time.  I own a Spikes and not a BCM, but my next purchase will probably be a BCM upper on a Spikes lower, just to mix it up.  Once I own and shoot both, I'll be able to develop my own opinion.  But, it will still be just that - an opinion.

Want to talk about "Kool Aid guzzling"?  How about all the people who have jumped on the Spikes bandwagon here over the last few months, most of which have probably never even handled a Spikes rifle.  But just because Spikes have what appears to be pretty decent specs at a good price, they are all of a sudden just as good as Colt, BCM, LMT ,etc??  That's some real "kool aid drinking" if I've ever seen it.  

The numbers(specs) say spikes is better as does my own personal experience.

This thread is just plain silly.

I still remember when  BUSHMASTER was the KING of AR15.COM
and only buy ABC


5 years from now OLY will be the best

all they have to do is use B-11595 barrels and a  milspec carrier/bolt

Might be the case, but doesn't have anything to do with my point.

This is what is known in debate as a "red herring"

With that said my BCM is magic, it's weight is the same as other M4 profile uppers however it handles crisper
and unlike other non Hbar barrels is as stable on target as an Hbar. It's accuracy is phenominal and it's 1/7 bbl. shoots XM193 more accurately than my 1/9. All I have to do is put the RD on target and hang on.

I don't often quote myself, but I wanted to see if you had perhaps missed my post or just chose not to elaborate, Captains1911.  I really am interested in what you think isn't as black and white as some people are thinking.

I have to agree the Spikes buffer and stock is one of the best I  have shot but it not a reason to sell your whole gun to get another...Just install the Spikes buffer and spring. I like their BCG also but it think its no diffrent than anyone elses I just like the logo..... As far as preformance the Buffer is the only thing I can say is diffrent... Smother and no clang after every shot and you dont feel that hit on the recoil just a smooth action. But its your call.

this x 1,000

I have the highest regard for a guy like Pat and I'm sure everything he says is true... I wonder if you misinterpret different people’s needs.

If I only shoot a couple of thousand rounds thru my AR and it works flawless, then it doesn't matter if I have a Colt or Bushmaster. I have no doubt Colt is better but for my purposes they are both just as good. Both should fire rnd # 2001 if I need it too.

It is far more important for each of us to HAVE a rifle, instead of pissing about mine is better then yours.

A while back, some guy repeatedly maintained - Colt or death in STHF. Your tier II rifle was going to fail at the worst possible moment and you will die. That was it!

My possibility of 'needing' to use my AR is really really low... So what’s wrong with a low mileage tier II rifle?

+1.  Moderator should just close this one, just drive on.

+1
Although I was hoping Captain1911 would grace us again with some hard evidence aside from a copy and paste from M4C.net

I never said anything was wrong with it or that everybody needed the best, that's irrelevant to the fact that one may still be better than the other.

I'm not going to bother to read all this, I'll just chime in and say that I have both. They are comparable; S&W is more readily available, I prefer Spike's out of personal preference. Both good guns.

Good call not reading it all. I did that. I got some good laughs, but wasted a lot of my time.

Well, you've ignored the question twice now.  I suppose that means all you have to back up your claims that BCM is better than Spike's Tactical rifles is hearsay and not direct comparison?  Pat has shot a lot of rounds through one, and BCM has a great reputation.  Heck, the CEO of Spike's likes their stuff too.  He has praised them on numerous occasions and even recommended their products to folks.

As for going "above and beyond what almost all others do," well, Spike's Tactical does so as well.  They happen to be, as far as I know, the only manufacturer of AR-15s to put out the volume of documentation regarding their rifles that they have.  Their customer service is the best I have personally received in any industry, not just firearms, and I am not the only person to ever say that.  Heck, Tom even recommended their competitor's gear as stated above, if he couldn't offer someone what they wanted.

So really, saying BCM is better than Spike's at this point is pretty ill-informed.  They both make fine rifles that are at least mil-spec (as much as I loathe that term) and offer them at incredibly low prices relative to the name brand competition.  To ignore that or say otherwise is either ignorance or agenda.

"mil-spec" does not mean anything is better then non-mil-spec

you will visit the pit of doom for that comment.

So do you have facts what makes Spikes equal to BCM? Or is it all just hearsay and what you read about the specs of the rifle appear to be the same..sooo they must be equal according to the specs right??? BCM are one of the most used in classes and have already been proven to be top notch tools. Until Spikes rifles start showing some high round counts and prove reliable it is still Apples to Oranges....apples to oranges....

I know everything I said is gonna be ignored..so with that said

BCM- tools used by professionals
S&W-nice range  rifle
Spikes-toy

depends on what and for what purpose. the steel is 4150 which is > 4140.  Better for a "combat" general use gun.  For precision ss would be better but is not mil-spec.

when it comes to tests, mil-spec is great and i dont know any manufacture that pressure and mp tests parts to > milspec standards.  Not that it doesnt exist, but if it does, id be shocked.




the facts would be the tests the company does to ensure that they are quality parts entering the market such as an hp and mp tests, ect.  There is a standard that colt has, its ensured by there tests.  BCM = those standards.  Colt  = them and spikes  = them.

if colt does not go above and beyond, then bcm and spikes =/> colt.  Facts are facts.

also, you cant argue the fact that spikes uses much better materials than S&W.  Unless there are MAJOR manufaturing/assembly issues, its a better gun.

On paper, a Spikes is on par with a BCM. Spikes is better on paper than a S&W. In real life and range use, these differences are not as apparent. In hard use (as in carbine courses or battle) these differences are more likely to make themselves apparent.
As far as is Spikes better than BCM, Hell I doubt it, they may be as good- there is no proof yet. I own at least a couple from Spikes and BCM, I am comfortable that they are roughly equivalent. BUT, Spikes has a lot to prove to back up ANYONES statement that they are indeed the quality of BCM.
I am not detracting from any of these weapons listed, most people will be well served by any of these 3 companies weapons (paper be damned). BCM is as good as it gets and I hope that Spikes CAN live up to being AS GOOD AS BCM. If this proves out we are all better off. Nothing is proven yet (except data on paper).

This entire thread has gotten sidetracked, so to the origional OP, yes Spikes is a fine choice, but so is S&W. Personally I would (and did) chose Spikes (and BCM), but S&W rifles are not 2nd rate. Charts (data on paper) mean nothing to rifles sitting in a safe, nor many rifles that are shot little. The chart is a yardstick to measure items by, but it is merely ink on paper. Granted, it is great data about a standard. It is not the Bible we must live by. Buy the rifles you want and shoot them, lets not get in pissing matches about crap.

which one?

 





















 

But what about the "things that Paul does" statement?

 































 

I have bought Spike's for over 10 years and I put their products up with LMT and the others. In addition to quality, they are local so I would rather see my money go to them instead of a Corp. who just treats you like a number. Spikes is like family.

No, it is good to keep open.  Weeds out the idiots.  Makes my life easier to figure out who not to listen to.

 

to answer the OP. Spikes is better than an M&P on paper. I wouldnt sell an M&P I already owned to get a Spikes as that would typically not be very cost efficient. Nor would it really be such a huge difference in quality that it would be worth it. This is exactly why I have not swapped a Stag upper for a Spikes upper on one of my rifles.

However, I believe I read in a post that the OP said that he could swap the rifles for essentially nothing and could potentially even make some money on the deal. If that is the case, then I would certainly make the swap.

And as to all of this Spikes vs BCM garbage. I think it is funny how everyone points to the chart as the end all be all of what makes a rifle a "top tier". Then when Spikes steps up to post their certs which places them on equal footing with Colt and BCM all the BCM fanboys say that BCM is still better than Spikes. Like BCM is the chosen rifle built by the hand of God or something.

I see a lot of comments about how BCM runs through thousands of rounds without any cleaning and maintenance and they are extremely reliable. Most often people will refer to Pat Rogers and filthy 14. True, this is a torture test to say the least. HOWEVER, it is a fallacy (hasty generalization) to say that because of this one torture test all BCM will be just as reliable.THIS ONE RIFLE GOING THROUGH A TORTURE TEST IS NOTHING MORE THAN A STATISTICAL ANOMOLY.

People are referring to filthy 14 as evidence why BCM is better than Spikes, But really filthy 14 proves nothing. Hell, Bushmaster, Stag, DPMS, RRA, Spikes, Colt, Oly, could all have rifles that would have been through the same test with the same results. The sheer number of rifles built by each company means that at least a few of them should be able to pass the same test. I have read stories of BCM coming from the factory with problems right off of the bat. So what would have happened if Pat got one of the few crappy ones? If he reported stoppages every three rounds would that provide sufficient evidence that BCM is crap? NO!  You cant make a basis for all BCM rifles off of one rifle that has been through one test.

Has Colt had a rifle go through the same test or similar? I would assume that if anyone has, Colt would. But if they haven't does that mean that the BCM fanboys believe that BCM is better than Colt? Has LMT had  a torture test? I dont recall hearing of one. Why is it that LMT is considered Top Tier and better than Spikes when Spikes would actually be higher on the list than LMT is? I dont recall seeing any LMT torture tests.

Im not being a Spikes fanboy here, but trying to point out that all the reasons that Spikes used to be considered inferior to BCM no longer apply. With exception of the Pat Rogers test, (which no manufacturer other than BCM has ever even been in) there is no difference.  And as far as LMT being considered top tier never really made sense to me as they seem to skimp out on a few things.

I don't know about BCM but for the record plenty of law enforcement agencies in Central and South Florida use Spikes M4-LE rifles for both training and duty work and the list gets bigger every month.

These are my thoughts as well. You know, I think its something trivial, like they just don't like the spider. or something else unrelated to the quality of the rifle.

Stop making sense !! No fair !

News flash.....My Spikes AR just cured cancer.......

Was that necessary? Try to add something of substance.

Im a sicilian American and just because you can get spaghetti and meat balls in a mil-spec MRE doesnt mean its better than my veal,pork,ground beef meatballs and home made sausage that cooks real slow for 5 hours in tomatoes that I peeled and crushed myself fresh..moral mil-spec isnt always better.

They did, remember last year?