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Posted: 5/1/2010 9:53:20 AM EDT
| looking to upgrade my ar triggger.who is the best for the money Timney,RRA match ,Wilson,.Ect.? |
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I have 2 Wilson TTU single stages. Both are in SPR's. So far so good. Both break cleaner than any other trigger I have used.
I have only heard of one isolated issue with one of these triggers. Wilson was very quick to address the problem and replaced the trigger out right and figured the problem out later. That is the kind of customer service you want. I have had excellent customer service from them. They are expensive but you get what you pay for. |
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I went this route. On a target gun a light trigger is important. On a hard use SHTF gun it's really tough to beat the standard G.I. single stage trigger.
I had a Rock River two stage in a build and it became a single stage within 200 rounds. 3 of my M4's now have a M&A parts single stages in them. My last build I dropped a Gressele SSA in it. It's a nice trigger but the jury's still out. Don't forget on any trigger put a dab of good grease on the contact surfaces and a drop of oil on the pins. http://www.palmettostatearmory.com/tactical-triggers.php |
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Geissele SSA, great trigger! +1000000 Couldn't agree more. It might be the best upgrade I've made to my AR's. Note: I do not require or need a super light trigger pull on my rifles and there are other triggers designed to fill that specific need. The OP didn't state his intended usage. |
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If cost is no object, AR Gold hands down. If you're looking on a budget then probably the Geissele. AR Gold hands down. You won't hear much about them as they are new and Geisselle has been around forever. I own a Geisselle and JPs, and the AR Gold blows them away. |
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Can you point me to some threads or pictures or evidence of this. I have 2 SSA triggers with 30k rounds between them and would hate for them to fail me If the search would work even decently for non-members I would give you a link. Off the top of my head I think the thread "Which parts fail in a carbine course" gives examples. But there are also other threads talking about this. Maybe someone else can get the search to work for them. |
| Posting how many thousands of rounds your trigger has held up isn't going to help. The failure rates are not high but are higher than stock single stage. So some 2 stage will last forever but more of them will break at higher rates than single stage.... and actually RRA is one of the triggers commonly quoted as breaking. |
| Agreed on the RRA trigger. But I've rarely heard of a geissele, Wilson, JP, and such failing. Posting round counts are relevant to establishing a general sense of reliability. What is is more relevant to how a trigger will hold up? Plus the nicer triggers come with a great warranty if in the rare event you need them the companies will take care of you. I'll admit there are probably ten times the the stock triggers in the field though |
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Agreed on the RRA trigger. But I've rarely heard of a geissele, Wilson, JP, and such failing. Posting round counts are relevant to establishing a general sense of reliability. What is is more relevant to how a trigger will hold up? Plus the nicer triggers come with a great warranty if in the rare event you need them the companies will take care of you. I'll admit there are probably ten times the the stock triggers in the field though I've heard of all of those breaking except for Wilson, doesn't mean they don't also have problems. Because the failure rate is not high, but higher than stock triggers, posting how many rounds a trigger holds up doesn't help. Only posting how many break helps because that number is much more helpful to determine the failure rate. For a rifle that is or may be used to defend my life I would rather have the piece of mind that I have the most reliable equipment possible. A lot of people on here for whatever reason do not know the information from threads relevant to reliability including triggers, LPKs, and lubrication. I wish they would keep the stickies posted where they are more visible rather than the new way they are doing it. |
| I hear of more RRA breakage on this forum than the others...but...how many more RRA 2stage/match triggers have been in use over the other brands....so to say RRA is more prone to failure may not be entirely in perspective..if there are a 1000 RRA triggers being used to 100 brand x's, and 1% of each fail...then RRA had ten failures to 1 of brand x....same failure percentage but higher quantity of RRA due to expense making them more appealing to the budget shooters...maybe RRA does fail sooner/more frequently than others, but there is no real way to prove it, anyone can have a bad experience with any product at any time, while the next guy has the same thing and never has any problems. |
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I hear of more RRA breakage on this forum than the others...but...how many more RRA 2stage/match triggers have been in use over the other brands....so to say RRA is more prone to failure may not be entirely in perspective..if there are a 1000 RRA triggers being used to 100 brand x's, and 1% of each fail...then RRA had ten failures to 1 of brand x....same failure percentage but higher quantity of RRA due to expense making them more appealing to the budget shooters...maybe RRA does fail sooner/more frequently than others, but there is no real way to prove it, anyone can have a bad experience with any product at any time, while the next guy has the same thing and never has any problems. It's all 2 stage triggers because of their design. |
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Chip McCormick self contained trigger assembly. Self contained so that tolerances are maintained within the unit itself and not dependent on the lower. No adjustments screws to come out of adjustment. personally I've shot 2400 rounds through mine and a ton of snap cap trigger time too. Works great.
I have one in my AR and the break is at 3.5 pounds or a bit over, a tiny bit of creep which I like for an AR that is asked to go to the range and might be used for 3 gun type 'tactical' matches. They come in curved or flat trigger and there is a National Match version that breaks at 3 pounds. I wanted mine to look 'stock': Single stage. 
Check out other people's review here, sometimes you can find this trigger group on sale for $199 or maybe cheaper: http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/ARR039-7.html EDIT - this site has it for $219 and has more info: http://www.topgunsupply.com/chip-mccormick-ar15-single-stage-match-trigger-group-curve.html Specs/features I copied from one of the sites:: a fine match grade trigger pull is now an extremely simple upgrade to implement. Install the fully self contained, ready to go trigger group, safety check, and it’s done! 1 Gunsmiths: patented (with more patents pending) one piece assembly installs in minutes. Check for safe and proper function, you're done! 2 Installation of the trigger group is quite simple: insert the one piece assembly, install the supplied over-sized pins. No screws to adjust or worry about coming loose at the worst possible time 3 No cheap tricks or compromises: Full strength music wire springs for fast lock-time and reliable discharge with factory or military ammo. 4 Tolerances of +/- .001" for all engagement surfaces. Hammer, trigger, disconnector and pins are made with the highest grade, hardest, longest wearing materials available. The assembly is contained in a high grade 410 stainless steel housing. 5 Patented "Super Match Flat Trigger**" yields unprecedented control, ergonomics and consistency. Highly recommended!!! 6 Factory tuned for a better than average match grade trigger pull with minimum take-up and over-travel. Typical quality we're famous for. 7 Available in single stage and two stage trigger action. Fits Mil-Spec receivers. Available for small or large center pin receiver holes. |
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Because the failure rate is not high, but higher than stock triggers, posting how many rounds a trigger holds up doesn't help. Only posting how many break helps because that number is much more helpful to determine the failure rate. The failure rate for mechanical devices is 100% if they are used long enough. The important number here is mean cycle count between failures (and the variance), and of course round counts are helpful in roughly estimating this. The nature of the distribution is im portant too, and round counts are of use here also. Quoted:
Sometimes it seems like a waste of time educating people. You could educate yourself on these concepts... |
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Because the failure rate is not high, but higher than stock triggers, posting how many rounds a trigger holds up doesn't help. Only posting how many break helps because that number is much more helpful to determine the failure rate. The failure rate for mechanical devices is 100% if they are used long enough. The important number here is mean cycle count between failures, and of course round counts are helpful in roughly estimating this. Quoted:
Sometimes it seems like a waste of time educating people. You could educate yourself on these concepts... I am talking about premature failure, of course a mechanical device will fail if used long enough. It seems you do not even know what the concepts are, much less understanding them. Read some threads about the failures before posting your opinions, there are some people on this forum that actually know what they are talking about. |
| It's amazing that some people on this forum choose to ignore the statistics from real world experts with much more experience than many of us like Pat Rogers as well as the many threads by members of these triggers breaking. Also a lack of knowledge about statistics in general by some people isn't helping. If you know the failure rate of something is not very high you don't ask for 999 people to post that theirs are fine you ask for the 1 person out of 1000 to post that theirs broke (and of course round count when it breaks is important, it goes without saying). Just like the Militec thread, people will want to believe what they want because they own or use the product and ignore the facts. |
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Because the failure rate is not high, but higher than stock triggers, posting how many rounds a trigger holds up doesn't help. Only posting how many break helps because that number is much more helpful to determine the failure rate. The failure rate for mechanical devices is 100% if they are used long enough. The important number here is mean cycle count between failures, and of course round counts are helpful in roughly estimating this. Quoted:
Sometimes it seems like a waste of time educating people. You could educate yourself on these concepts... I am talking about premature failure, of course a mechanical device will fail if used long enough. It seems you do not even know what the concepts are, much less understanding them. Read some threads about the failures before posting your opinions, there are some people on this forum that actually know what they are talking about. "Premature" covers a whole range, from the failures after a few hundred cycles that might be anticipated by MPI or similar inspections, to longer term problems. Trouble free round counts can shed light on this. Of course sampling bias is always a problem, since people may be more likely to post either failure or problem-free lifetime, depending on their attitude. And of course there are fewer guns at really high round counts. Trouble free posts help us estimate this latter effect. Let me give an example: We'll compare two threads like the present one. In one thread, there are the following posts 1 post of failure at 25,000 cycles 5 posts of failure at 15,000 cycles 1 post of failure at 5,000 cycles 5 posts of failure at 200 cycles In the second, these 80 posts of 30,000+ trouble free cycles 1 post of failure at 25,000 cycles 5 posts of failure at 15,000 cycles 200 posts of 10,000 trouble free cycles. 2 posts of failure at 5,000 cycles 5 posts of failure at 200 cycles Neither thread can be used to draw hard conclusions, but which one is more help for estimating MCBF or variance or the failure rate vs. round count distribution? In the first post, how can we estimate how many triggers made it to 30,000 rounds? Rates require a denominator as well as a numerator. Quoted:
The failure rates are not high but are higher than stock single stage. How can we know much about this without trouble-free round count data as well as failure data? Quoted:
posting how many break helps because that number is much more helpful to determine the failure rate. You're right here, per post the failure posts are much more important in estimating the shape and scale of the failure distribution. But trouble free round counts are important too. |
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Because the failure rate is not high, but higher than stock triggers, posting how many rounds a trigger holds up doesn't help. Only posting how many break helps because that number is much more helpful to determine the failure rate. The failure rate for mechanical devices is 100% if they are used long enough. The important number here is mean cycle count between failures, and of course round counts are helpful in roughly estimating this. Quoted:
Sometimes it seems like a waste of time educating people. You could educate yourself on these concepts... I am talking about premature failure, of course a mechanical device will fail if used long enough. It seems you do not even know what the concepts are, much less understanding them. Read some threads about the failures before posting your opinions, there are some people on this forum that actually know what they are talking about. "Premature" covers a whole range, from the failures after a few hundred cycles that might be anticipated by MPI or similar inspections, to longer term problems. Trouble free round counts can shed light on this. Of course sampling bias is always a problem, since people may be more likely to post either failure or problem-free lifetime, depending on their attitude. And of course there are fewer guns at really high round counts. Trouble free posts help us estimate this latter effect. Let me give an example: We'll compare two threads like the present one. In one thread, there are the following posts 1 post of failure at 25,000 cycles 5 posts of failure at 15,000 cycles 1 post of failure at 5,000 cycles 5 posts of failure at 200 cycles In the second, these 80 posts of 30,000+ trouble free cycles 1 post of failure at 25,000 cycles 5 posts of failure at 15,000 cycles 200 posts of 10,000 trouble free cycles. 2 posts of failure at 5,000 cycles 5 posts of failure at 200 cycles Neither thread can be used to draw hard conclusions, but which one is more help for estimating MCBF or variance or the failure rate vs. round count distribution? In the first post, how can we estimate how many triggers made it to 30,000 rounds? Rates require a denominator as well as a numerator. Quoted:
The failure rates are not high but are higher than stock single stage. How can we know much about this without trouble-free round count data as well as failure data? Quoted:
posting how many break helps because that number is much more helpful to determine the failure rate. You're right here, per post the failure posts are much more important in estimating the shape and scale of the failure distribution. But trouble free round counts are important too. Well said, Im tapping out now. Im a trigger puller not a statistician and I could care less. In my unit 3 stock single stage triggers have gone tits up in a year. Granted they were 5 years old with 3k per year on them but thats the only statistic that really matters to me. Anything past this 15k point with my SSA's just confirm to me what I guess I want to believe. All opinions are different to each his own. Take care gents. |
Here is my educated statistic from the pool of arfcom staticians. Buy what you want and it will break eventually. So conclusion is. 
Stick to stock single stage for more reliability or get what you want aftermarket with a quality company and take your chances. 
Case closed. |
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Well said, Im tapping out now. Im a trigger puller not a statistician and I could care less. In my unit 3 stock single stage triggers have gone tits up in a year. Granted they were 5 years old with 3k per year on them but thats the only statistic that really matters to me. Anything past this 15k point with my SSA's just confirm to me what I guess I want to believe. All opinions are different to each his own. Take care gents.
I'm an instructor, so here is what I see, we use A2's on a daily bases, 14 rifles at a time, 100 rds per rifle, 5 days aweek. And a bunch of M4's thown in there also, which use 160 rds for the course of fire. What do I see breaking alot, not triggers,m never seen one break, trigger springs yes, also the two lugs on both sides of the extractor break alot. 1 burst cam I've seen break. |
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