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Posted: 3/23/2010 8:18:40 PM EDT
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...and not in other rifles?
Just put an MSAR AUG-clone back together, and noted that there was nothing akin to the buffer that rides behind the bolt carrier in an AR. There is no buffer in an M-1, M-1 Carbine, M-14, and AK. So why the buffer in an AR? I know about the bolt bounce issues that led to the weights in the buffer, but why the buffer at all? Moon ETA-taking apart something besides an AR gives you some appreciation of just how simple Stoner's package is, and how easy it is to fieldstrip it. Some of it is simple familiarity, but the AR design is well thought out. M |
| from what I understand pistons like the ak cause more muzzle jump and ar ar was designed to send the recoil into the shoulder causing less muzzle ride.(learned this on the history channel) The main purpose was the soldier to be able to stay on target with more rounds down range |
| Lighter bcg and more flexibility in tuning comes to mind. Given how many different bcg/buffer weight combinations people use just with 5.56.... toss in all the other calibers used in the same upper receiver and often with the same bolt or at least carrier and the ability to swap out buffer weights seems like a pretty handy thing to have. |
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Quoted:
...and not in other rifles? Just put an MSAR AUG-clone back together, and noted that there was nothing akin to the buffer that rides behind the bolt carrier in an AR. There is no buffer in an M-1, M-1 Carbine, M-14, and AK. So why the buffer in an AR? I know about the bolt bounce issues that led to the weights in the buffer, but why the buffer at all? Moon ETA-taking apart something besides an AR gives you some appreciation of just how simple Stoner's package is, and how easy it is to fieldstrip it. Some of it is simple familiarity, but the AR design is well thought out. M The other rifles do not have them because they were not designed with them. On the M-1, M-1 Carbine, M-14, and AK, they all have long stroke pistons, that adds weight just like the buffer does, performing the same job. I'm not familiar with AUG's, but I'd think they just have heavier, or duel recoil springs. |
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The G3 used a buffer spring assembly in the buttstock. It too has a massive bolt assembly, the op rod spring can't do it all without excessive effort by the operator. Operator effort is a key part of the pressure threshold allowed.
One way to look at it is that Stoner was too successful in the design of a lightweight BCG - he had to add more mass to slow the bolt. Another is that 1950's spring design and manufacture didn't leave a lot of innovation possible. Look what has been done since - hydraulic buffers, pneumatic buffers, and tunable selective weighting. What hasn't been done is dual springs, or a short stroke system in the upper . . . that would be a tight package, but not impossible. I wonder what John Moses Browning would have done? |
another thought, without it, the gun would be running on much lower pressure making it more prone to jams. more weight at same speed = more inerta which means shit wont have as much effect on it. think of bullets, a 30 grain wont penetrate as far as a 70grain bullet, even at much higher speed. just imagine if the velocity was the same .
also, as mentioned above, if there was no buffer and the spring had to be strong enough to run the system as is, it would probably be extremely difficult to pull back. |
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Quoted:
The G3 used a buffer spring assembly in the buttstock. It too has a massive bolt assembly, the op rod spring can't do it all without excessive effort by the operator. Operator effort is a key part of the pressure threshold allowed. One way to look at it is that Stoner was too successful in the design of a lightweight BCG - he had to add more mass to slow the bolt. Another is that 1950's spring design and manufacture didn't leave a lot of innovation possible. Look what has been done since - hydraulic buffers, pneumatic buffers, and tunable selective weighting. What hasn't been done is dual springs, or a short stroke system in the upper . . . that would be a tight package, but not impossible. I wonder what John Moses Browning would have done? The Army's Port Firing Weapon does have a very strong double spring, but it's a very limited use weapon. Full auto only, and a ridiculous rate of fire. Olympic Arms's OA93 AR pistol doesn't have a buffer exactly. The bolt carrier is shorter, and the recoil spring is in front of the receiver around the barrel. Not sure exactly how it works though as I've never taken one down to look at it. |
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Quoted: Olympic Arms's OA93 AR pistol doesn't have a buffer exactly. The bolt carrier is shorter, and the recoil spring is in front of the receiver around the barrel. Not sure exactly how it works though as I've never taken one down to look at it. The OA-93 actually has a good sized chunk of steel that pins to the top of the carrier when assembled to add mass. It's also the pickup point for the action spring. My homebuilt pistol in my avatar has a shortened carrier, and no such mass, but has a good bit of preload on the action spring to compensate for the lighter bolt and still provide reliable feeding. One thing that slows it down and prevents it from battering itself is the fact that the extended gas key never leaves the gas tube, so the residual pressure creates a delay / buffer on bolt return that seems to work well. It still cycles pretty darn quickly though...  |
| The AR bolt carrier is split into 2 parts: the carrier and the buffer/spring. This was done so the recoil spring could be housed in the stock, shortening the length of the receiver. The buffer is necessary to retain the spring in the buffer tube so you can pull the rear pin and field strip the gun. |
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Quoted:
The AR bolt carrier is split into 2 parts: the carrier and the buffer/spring. This was done so the recoil spring could be housed in the stock, shortening the length of the receiver. The buffer is necessary to retain the spring in the buffer tube so you can pull the rear pin and field strip the gun. The sole purpose of the buffer is NOT to retain the spring. 
All Stoner woulda had to do for that is put in an oversized, overglorified aluminum shotgun follower. Cheaper, less parts, lighter, etc., etc. The correct answer has already been previously stated in this mess. |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
...and not in other rifles? Just put an MSAR AUG-clone back together, and noted that there was nothing akin to the buffer that rides behind the bolt carrier in an AR. There is no buffer in an M-1, M-1 Carbine, M-14, and AK. So why the buffer in an AR? I know about the bolt bounce issues that led to the weights in the buffer, but why the buffer at all? Moon ETA-taking apart something besides an AR gives you some appreciation of just how simple Stoner's package is, and how easy it is to fieldstrip it. Some of it is simple familiarity, but the AR design is well thought out. M The other rifles do not have them because they were not designed with them. On the M-1, M-1 Carbine, M-14, and AK, they all have long stroke pistons, that adds weight just like the buffer does, performing the same job. I'm not familiar with AUG's, but I'd think they just have heavier, or duel recoil springs. M1 Carbine has a short stroke piston system |
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