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Posted: 7/19/2009 12:39:04 PM EDT
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I don't remember how many threads i have read about AR lack of stopping power which always made me wonder who are those folks who complain...anyhow, yesterday i was testing my loads of 75 gr Hornandy BTHP with 21 gr of IMR 3031 at 100 yds on my "steel buddy" (1/2" thick steel) from my AR and unfortunately i have placed 2 shots in to the same hole...results below...even single hits / holes are clearly showing off amount of force delivered by 75 gr bullet...
http://i399.photobucket.com/albums/pp71/robert60446_r/Steel1.jpg http://i399.photobucket.com/albums/pp71/robert60446_r/Steel2.jpg http://i399.photobucket.com/albums/pp71/robert60446_r/Steelcopy.jpg |
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Quoted:
Any idea how much farther they went after coming out the other side? Behind the steel target it was only corn field - some corn was clearly damaged, but i was also shooting at "paper" targets so no way to tell... @bullet weight - you are correct, the 55 gr isn't even close to 75 gr, but on my picture you can see some holes from factory loaded federal 55 gr and these manged to get "fused" in to the steel...still impact from it would be very much devastating... 
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I'm impressed that HP's would give you that much penetration before sloughing off their jackets or simply breaking up.
I haven't shot 75-grainers ... how do they print compared to 55gr bullets? IOW, how much does it change the POI at 100yd if you go from a 55gr bullet to a 75gr in the same rifle? . . |
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Many folks still only look at diameter as the definition of stopping power. Just last week I overheard a couple fo guys talking guns, and one said that he didn't know why they didn't just give troops 1911s adn forget the M16 all together because a .45 is a much better stopper.
Some folks don't get the simple difference between pistol rounds and rifle rounds. A lot of these are the voices of the lack of stopping power in the AR. Flawed logic. |
| Let me ask this question...regarding the stopping power of a typical 223 rd. at what range does it do the most damage? would hitting a live target at 100 yrds be optimal for the round to yaw in the target as opposed to a much closer distance, say 25yrds? I've seen ballistic gel tests but typically they are not distance tests to show what a bullet does that far away. When I say a typical round, I mean the round you most often shoot...whether it be wolf, brown brear, whatever is cheap. 52gr or 62 gr.......not the special box you keep for home defense. thanks |
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Let me ask this question...regarding the stopping power of a typical 223 rd. at what range does it do the most damage? would hitting a live target at 100 yrds be optimal for the round to yaw in the target as opposed to a much closer distance, say 25yrds? I've seen ballistic gel tests but typically they are not distance tests to show what a bullet does that far away. When I say a typical round, I mean the round you most often shoot...whether it be wolf, brown brear, whatever is cheap. 52gr or 62 gr.......not the special box you keep for home defense. thanks Next time when i will be out in the field i will perform many more tests. I want to see penetration differences of 75 and 55 gr rounds at 25 vs 100 yds on steel but also on brick / concrete targets. Hell, maybe i will even organize some 2x4's. I will also take detailed notes on POI and etc... |
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First off a steel plate is not a human being hopped up on narcotics carrying an AK...also mud walls in the desert are way more dense than the 1/2 inch steel plate.Shot placement is everything and while I love the AR15 I would take evaluations on performance from door kickers who are going after drugged up terrorists,taliban or insurgents..I love 5.56 but its no .308.There are better stoppers than 5.56 and I beleive most of the complaints come from those who have used it in harms way.If 55 grain was sufficient socom guys wouldnt be using 77 gr holowpoints.
You need 2700 fps for 5.56 to fragment wich is not garunteed as people come in different shapes and sizes and being hopped up on narcotics is also a factor..remember Somalis and now Taliban.Bigger and slower is better than light and fast for stopping and while I wouldnt want to be shot period the only thing that matters is making hits count when the target is trying to kill you to.A 20 inch barrel is suposed to keep the velocity at 2700 out to 200 yds out of a 14.5 100 yds and then figure in many other factors as well.If 556 doesnt hit bone or viatls theres good chance of it passing through depending on the density of the person..30 caliber on the other hand will take the starch out of you...vitals bones or not it makes a bigger hole. If you want to keep the enemy down and penetrate cover heavier and larger than 5.56 is whats needed.With 6.8 or 6.5 you get speed,weight and a pretty flat trajectory especially with 6.5.I dont think the AR design is going anytime soon just a different caliber and operating system. |
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Quoted:
If 55 grain was sufficient socom guys wouldnt be using 77 gr holowpoints. I was actually using 75gr hollow points when "experiencing" steel penetration phenomena...;-)...anyhow, it is easy to say to go with larger caliber, but when you are in the field marching in +100 degrees sun through the desert, trust me every extra ounce of equipment on your back makes a difference after few hrs...Larger caliber = more weight or less ammo...tough choice. |
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Guys, read up on the Ammo Oracle
http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm#RIFLE%20AMMUNITION Penetrating a steel target has nothing to do with terminal performance on a target. |
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I guess load bearing depends on SOPs and the soldier.There are some that still carry the M14 individualy and can handle it.The way M4s can get heavy through added weight..weight close to what an M14 with 20 round mag weighs I think whats needed is both weapons or choice of weapons for all service personel.
You can carry double the load in 5.56 as you can in .308 but one may need multiple shots to be used and the other is a one or two shot stopper.Id rather be done with it in a couple of shots rather than 4 to 6.The 5.56 will kill like .308 its just that .308 after a couple of hits will most likely not give a dying enemy a chance to still hurt or kill before he goes.Its time to have something to keep em down for the count.And if ass face clinton didnt cut up brand new M14s by the thousands years ago and we didnt give so many away wed have enough to issue out as a desert fighting system until something better comes along. On the other hand we could ignore the hague and get a 5.56 round that is devastating against the enemy when hit.Im sure a round could be developed that would be more effective for the same size as whats already used. |
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Quoted: For a comparo of POI - My 18" SPR is zeroed using BH 77grn OTMs. At 100 yds, all the factory 55 grn rounds I shoot (Privi M193, Walmart fed value pack, Fed 50 grn HP, etc) all shoot about 2-2.5 inches high at 100 yds. So conversely - if you are zero'd with 55 grn bullets, I would expect the 75-77 to fall about that much low from your POA. I'm sure ballistic calculators could give you a more accurate number, but that gives you an idea of the POI diff.I'm impressed that HP's would give you that much penetration before sloughing off their jackets or simply breaking up. I haven't shot 75-grainers ... how do they print compared to 55gr bullets? IOW, how much does it change the POI at 100yd if you go from a 55gr bullet to a 75gr in the same rifle? . . |
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Quoted:
I guess load bearing depends on SOPs and the soldier.There are some that still carry the M14 individualy and can handle it.The way M4s can get heavy through added weight..weight close to what an M14 with 20 round mag weighs I think whats needed is both weapons or choice of weapons for all service personel. You can carry double the load in 5.56 as you can in .308 but one may need multiple shots to be used and the other is a one or two shot stopper.Id rather be done with it in a couple of shots rather than 4 to 6.The 5.56 will kill like .308 its just that .308 after a couple of hits will most likely not give a dying enemy a chance to still hurt or kill before he goes.Its time to have something to keep em down for the count.And if ass face clinton didnt cut up brand new M14s by the thousands years ago and we didnt give so many away wed have enough to issue out as a desert fighting system until something better comes along. On the other hand we could ignore the hague and get a 5.56 round that is devastating against the enemy when hit.Im sure a round could be developed that would be more effective for the same size as whats already used. Hell no. What's needed is some middle ground. M4 size is great but a little more bullet weight would be nice. |
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Quoted:
Guys, read up on the Ammo Oracle http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm#RIFLE%20AMMUNITION Penetrating a steel target has nothing to do with terminal performance on a target. It sure does. If it can defeat steel cover and hit the target, then it had something to do with it. |
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