AR Sponsor
Posted: 12/8/2008 1:14:23 PM EDT
|
I recently got a 2 piece 4rail handguard that uses the stock delta ring. After the install I noticed the the top handguard rail and the upper flattop rail don't line up. The handguard rail is tilted enough to notice when a staight edge is placed on the 2. You also can not bridge things like a eotech between the 2 due to the tilt. I removed the handguard and fit it again to see if the install was wrong but it goes on smooth. My question is : can I just tighten the barrell nut like < 1mm to line up the 2 rails without have to do somthing like head space or f-ing up my AR. I believe there is enough room for the gas tube. Any other way to get these to line up? I did verify both the handrail and flat top are straight it's when they are installed one is @ 12oclock and the other is @ 11:59.
Thanks |
|
tightening or loosening your barrel nut is going to cause a problem with the gas tube (it has to line up so that the gas tube goes through one of the notches in the barrel nut teeth to enter the upper).
Now that I've actually READ your post... 
First question, even though your rails aren't lining up perfectly - is your barrel nut timed perfectly with the upper, leaving it perfectly inline with the gas tube hole? If so, leave it be - no sense over/under torquing a nut to avoid the actual problem which would be the rail system if the nut's already timed correctly. Also check to be certain that you don't have a bent or deformed tooth on the barrel nut, leaning fore or aft. Check the inside of your handguards, looking at the notch where the barrel nut's teeth fit into the rail system. Look for a burr or any protrusion that is keeping it from sitting flush onto the nut, or a worn spot where the rails are contacting. None of mine which attach via this method are "indexed" inside the notch for the teeth, just a machined notch the width and depth of the overall barrel nut regardless of the timing of the teeth. It's likely just a little tight at some point in the recess and hanging on a tooth. What brand rails? I've had a Troy that was pretty tight (needed a small amount of force to seat it) and an MI set on which I cleaned the notch up with a small file to get it to sit square. If it's a Troy, see this thread as it may be a similar issue. If none of that helps, post some pics and you can bet someone here can get you squared away. |
|
Hellbent,
It's not that the rail doesn't snap in it does. It mounts perfect and is very solid . It also isn't higher than the flat top. Both are on the same plane. It is however twisted. If you were to look at the top of the AR the rail(handguard) appears it needs rotated clockwise to match the upper. No burrs, or contact with anything other than what is is supposed to. I tried putting the stock handguard back on the see if it had the same problem and I never noticed before. Well it fits perfect, but it is also canted. maybe 1 degree from left to right of center, same as the handrail. It is a doublestar BTW. Not really sure what to do. |
|
Quoted:
I have had to slightly adjust the barrel nut in order for KAC RAS rails to align perfectly with the receiver on 9 out of 10 AR's I have worked on. This is a very common problem only most do not realize it. What would the be the proper way to adjust the nut? Remove the Gas tube and turn the nut slightly, reinsert gas tube verify rail aligns with reciever? |
|
Never loosen the barrel nut to achieve alignment.
Follow the tightening procedures as called out in the -23. TM 9-1005-319-23 http://www.ar15.com/content/index.html#manuals ETA: 
|
|
Quoted:
Never loosen the barrel nut to achieve alignment. Follow the tightening procedures as called out in the -23. TM 9-1005-319-23 http://www.ar15.com/content/index.html#manuals ETA: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v489/Metroliner/barrelnut.jpg Yes, I know. This is one case where the -23 is WRONG. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Never loosen the barrel nut to achieve alignment. Follow the tightening procedures as called out in the -23. TM 9-1005-319-23 http://www.ar15.com/content/index.html#manuals ETA: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v489/Metroliner/barrelnut.jpg Yes, I know. But were talking a few thousands of an inch. I've done it to HUNDREDS of M4s. This is one case where the -23 is WRONG. Simply put, you're in the wrong. You never, ever loosen to align. It's about following procedures that are proven to be safe/reliable/whatever reason you want to assign to it. Can you prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that what you do will not cause harm/malfunction? |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Never loosen the barrel nut to achieve alignment. Follow the tightening procedures as called out in the -23. TM 9-1005-319-23 http://www.ar15.com/content/index.html#manuals ETA: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v489/Metroliner/barrelnut.jpg Yes, I know. But were talking a few thousands of an inch. I've done it to HUNDREDS of M4s. This is one case where the -23 is WRONG. Simply put, you're in the wrong. You never, ever loosen to align. It's about following procedures that are proven to be safe/reliable/whatever reason you want to assign to it. Can you prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that what you do will not cause harm/malfunction? Whatever. I have over 20 years experiance with these things and fixed quite a few while 45B. You don't get it so I'm done explaining. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Never loosen the barrel nut to achieve alignment. Follow the tightening procedures as called out in the -23. TM 9-1005-319-23 http://www.ar15.com/content/index.html#manuals ETA: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v489/Metroliner/barrelnut.jpg Yes, I know. This is one case where the -23 is WRONG. Ok........... 
|
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Never loosen the barrel nut to achieve alignment. Follow the tightening procedures as called out in the -23. TM 9-1005-319-23 http://www.ar15.com/content/index.html#manuals ETA: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v489/Metroliner/barrelnut.jpg Yes, I know. This is one case where the -23 is WRONG. Ok........... What exactly is so fucking funny wiseguy? The -23 also tells you the rings on the bolt must be stagered- does it not? Forget it. I'll keep my 20 plus years of AR/M series knowlege to myself now. I'm fucking sick of this shit. Have a nice day. |
|
The purpose of that blurb in the manual is a general statement to keep people from loosening the nut one entire gas tube notch to align it. It is meant to keep Mr. GI Fuck-up from making the barrel loose in the receiver. A little move of the barrel nut without changing the recess the tube is going through on the nut is not going to hurt anything.
Yes, military manuals can be right, but they can also be wrong. I bet whoever wrote that blurb was not thinking about installing a set of handguard rails. Military publications are changed all the time. I am in the military and I can't count the number of changes I have seen. |
|
Quoted:
The purpose of that blurb in the manual is a general statement to keep people from loosening the nut one entire gas tube notch to align it. It is meant to keep Mr. GI Fuck-up from making the barrel loose in the receiver. A little move of the barrel nut without changing the recess the tube is going through on the nut is not going to hurt anything. Yes, military manuals can be right, but they can also be wrong. I bet whoever wrote that blurb was not thinking about installing a set of handguard rails. Military publications are changed all the time. I am in the military and I can't count the number of changes I have seen. Thank you! finally someone who can think for themselves! |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
The purpose of that blurb in the manual is a general statement to keep people from loosening the nut one entire gas tube notch to align it. It is meant to keep Mr. GI Fuck-up from making the barrel loose in the receiver. A little move of the barrel nut without changing the recess the tube is going through on the nut is not going to hurt anything. Yes, military manuals can be right, but they can also be wrong. I bet whoever wrote that blurb was not thinking about installing a set of handguard rails. Military publications are changed all the time. I am in the military and I can't count the number of changes I have seen. Thank you! finally someone who can think for themselves! I've done stuff by the book one week, only to have a change come down the next week telling me that there is a new procedure and the way I was doing it last week was dangerous as hell. I always read the book. The book changes sometimes. What is the date on that manual? Was it written when M16A2s were still the main rifle and rail sets were unheard of? It was written in May 1991 and has had 19 changes. Maybe it needs a new blurb and a 20th change? |
|
Quoted:
What exactly is so fucking funny wiseguy? The -23 also tells you the rings on the bolt must be stagered- does it not? Forget it. I'll keep my 20 plus years of AR/M series knowlege to myself now. I'm fucking sick of this shit. Have a nice day. Tell you what. You go ahead and recommend your personal interpretation of the -23, which not only goes against the written procedures, but also common sense. And I'll keep recommending the procedures as they are written. I have yet to steer anyone here in the wrong direction. We'll let folks read, and decide for themselves who they want to trust. |
|
Quoted:
Yes, military manuals can be right, but they can also be wrong. I bet whoever wrote that blurb was not thinking about installing a set of handguard rails. Military publications are changed all the time. I am in the military and I can't count the number of changes I have seen. Yes, your right, changes are often written and submitted. Manual revisions come out quite frequently. Believe me, if there is anyone here who can attest to having experience when it comes to keeping manuals up to date, at the current rev level, then that would be me. But, answer me this: If the barrel nut torque procedure, which has been the same for decades, was wrong, don't you think an updated procedure would have came out on a subsequent manual revision? At the VERY MINIMUM, there would have been advanced notification of a pending change in procedures posted in PS Magazine. ETA: If you guys currently serving, think the -23 procedures are wrong, then I challenge you to contact the LOGSA Technical Publications Division and get their opinion. Here you go, I'll even provide the address: [email protected] |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
What exactly is so fucking funny wiseguy? The -23 also tells you the rings on the bolt must be stagered- does it not? Forget it. I'll keep my 20 plus years of AR/M series knowlege to myself now. I'm fucking sick of this shit. Have a nice day. Tell you what. You go ahead and recommend your personal interpretation of the -23, which not only goes against the written procedures, but also common sense. And I'll keep recommending the procedures as they are written. I have yet to steer anyone here in the wrong direction. We'll let folks read, and decide for themselves who they want to trust. Fine. Have it your way. Take out the gas tube and loosen the barrel nut and re-torque it. Same thing but takes 10 times longer. That makes a lot of sense........... 
|
|
Quoted:
Fine. Have it your way. Take out the gas tube and loosen the barrel nut and re-torque it. Same thing but takes 10 times longer. That makes a lot of sense...........
I'm not going to sit here and argue with you. It's obvious from your response that you yourself are unfamiliar with the procedures as outlined in the -23. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
. .ETA: If you guys currently serving, think the -23 procedures are wrong, then I challenge you to contact the LOGSA Technical Publications Division and get their opinion. I agree, they should. I know we had a high security lock manual that was wrong for years until I showed someone. I saw the mistake when I first opened it. It completely omits a whole part during the reassembly process. They told me it was a great catch, but it still isn't fixed. ETA: And the -23 is right for military guys on military guns to keep every job identical to the lowest common denominator. They don't want them using any common sense that isn't in that book. Do civilian manufacturers use it on the assembly line? Probably not. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Never loosen the barrel nut to achieve alignment. Follow the tightening procedures as called out in the -23. TM 9-1005-319-23 http://www.ar15.com/content/index.html#manuals ETA: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v489/Metroliner/barrelnut.jpg Yes, I know. But were talking a few thousands of an inch. I've done it to HUNDREDS of M4s. This is one case where the -23 is WRONG. Simply put, you're in the wrong. You never, ever loosen to align. It's about following procedures that are proven to be safe/reliable/whatever reason you want to assign to it. Can you prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that what you do will not cause harm/malfunction? Whatever. I have over 20 years experiance with these things and fixed quite a few while 45B. You don't get it so I'm done explaining. I'll take that as a "NO", and that you where not only refusing to follow procedure, but that you also lied on documentation to cover it up. Fantastic! I used to OTH and (if deserved) BCD guys just like you because you cost lives... |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Fine. Have it your way. Take out the gas tube and loosen the barrel nut and re-torque it. Same thing but takes 10 times longer. That makes a lot of sense...........
I'm not going to sit here and argue with you. It's obvious from your response that you yourself are unfamiliar with the procedures as outlined in the -23. You make so little sense there is no point in explaining anything to you. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Never loosen the barrel nut to achieve alignment. Follow the tightening procedures as called out in the -23. TM 9-1005-319-23 http://www.ar15.com/content/index.html#manuals ETA: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v489/Metroliner/barrelnut.jpg Yes, I know. But were talking a few thousands of an inch. I've done it to HUNDREDS of M4s. This is one case where the -23 is WRONG. Simply put, you're in the wrong. You never, ever loosen to align. It's about following procedures that are proven to be safe/reliable/whatever reason you want to assign to it. Can you prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that what you do will not cause harm/malfunction? Whatever. I have over 20 years experiance with these things and fixed quite a few while 45B. You don't get it so I'm done explaining. I'll take that as a "NO", and that you where not only refusing to follow procedure, but that you also lied on documentation to cover it up. Fantastic! I used to OTH and (if deserved) BCD guys just like you because you cost lives... Too funny. |
|
QuicksilverJPR- I did ALWAYS did exactly what I was told to do....... I'm glad you and I never met........
Quib- you have lost my respect. I give up. I guess the tricks I learned over the past 20 years are not appreciated by you guys. Instead of offering advice to people here my sole response will be "You're Fucked" |
|
Quoted:
Quib- you have lost my respect. Partner, I could give a flying fuck what you think of me. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I feel if a person is going to give out advice here, that its not only an obligation but also a duty to the other members here, to put out the most correct, factual information possible IAW published standards and procedures. And I will not deviate from that. Written and technical procedures are just what they are. You want to deviate from those, then fine. Personal opinions and deviations should be noted as such. And that is my final word. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quib- you have lost my respect. Partner, I could give a flying fuck what you think of me. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I feel if a person is going to give out advice here, that its not only an obligation but also a duty to the other members here, to put out the most correct, factual information possible IAW published standards and procedures. And I will not deviate from that. Written and technical procedures are just what they are. You want to deviate from those, then fine. Personal opinions and deviations should be noted as such. And that is my final word. Happy trails QUIBLY! 
|
|
Quoted:
QuicksilverJPR- I did ALWAYS did exactly what I was told to do....... I'm glad you and I never met........ Quib- you have lost my respect. I give up. I guess the tricks I learned over the past 20 years are not appreciated by you guys. Instead of offering advice to people here my sole response will be "You're Fucked" Procedures are meant to be followed in the .mil. I can agree with you that there are ways to get the job done by not following the procedures, but I would have a hard time believing that either a senior enlisted man or one of your officers in the CoC would teach you to do something that was against the regs. Do things like that happen? Oh yeah, they do. But they should definitely not be common place. Maybe "battlefield repairs" or some such nonsense (like using 1,000 MPH tape and Coke cans to patch bullet/shrapnel holes in aircraft until you can put them down for overhaul)... Anyway, you probably would have liked working for me in the .mil. I'm actually much more demanding now in the .civ life... |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
QuicksilverJPR- I did ALWAYS did exactly what I was told to do....... I'm glad you and I never met........ Quib- you have lost my respect. I give up. I guess the tricks I learned over the past 20 years are not appreciated by you guys. Instead of offering advice to people here my sole response will be "You're Fucked" Procedures are meant to be followed in the .mil. I can agree with you that there are ways to get the job done by not following the procedures, but I would have a hard time believing that either a senior enlisted man or one of your officers in the CoC would teach you to do something that was against the regs. Do things like that happen? Oh yeah, they do. But they should definitely not be common place. Maybe "battlefield repairs" or some such nonsense (like using 1,000 MPH tape and Coke cans to patch bullet/shrapnel holes in aircraft until you can put them down for overhaul)... Anyway, you probably would have liked working for me in the .mil. I'm actually much more demanding now in the .civ life... I'm keeping my mouth shut...... |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
What exactly is so fucking funny wiseguy? The -23 also tells you the rings on the bolt must be stagered- does it not? Forget it. I'll keep my 20 plus years of AR/M series knowlege to myself now. I'm fucking sick of this shit. Have a nice day. Tell you what. You go ahead and recommend your personal interpretation of the -23, which not only goes against the written procedures, but also common sense. And I'll keep recommending the procedures as they are written. I have yet to steer anyone here in the wrong direction. We'll let folks read, and decide for themselves who they want to trust. Fine. Have it your way. Take out the gas tube and loosen the barrel nut and re-torque it. Same thing but takes 10 times longer. That makes a lot of sense...........
yes why take the time to do it right when you can half ass it and do it again later |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
What exactly is so fucking funny wiseguy? The -23 also tells you the rings on the bolt must be stagered- does it not? Forget it. I'll keep my 20 plus years of AR/M series knowlege to myself now. I'm fucking sick of this shit. Have a nice day. Tell you what. You go ahead and recommend your personal interpretation of the -23, which not only goes against the written procedures, but also common sense. And I'll keep recommending the procedures as they are written. I have yet to steer anyone here in the wrong direction. We'll let folks read, and decide for themselves who they want to trust. Fine. Have it your way. Take out the gas tube and loosen the barrel nut and re-torque it. Same thing but takes 10 times longer. That makes a lot of sense...........
yes why take the time to do it right when you can half ass it and do it again later Your name says it all. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
QuicksilverJPR- I did ALWAYS did exactly what I was told to do....... I'm glad you and I never met........ Quib- you have lost my respect. I give up. I guess the tricks I learned over the past 20 years are not appreciated by you guys. Instead of offering advice to people here my sole response will be "You're Fucked" Procedures are meant to be followed in the .mil. I can agree with you that there are ways to get the job done by not following the procedures, but I would have a hard time believing that either a senior enlisted man or one of your officers in the CoC would teach you to do something that was against the regs. Do things like that happen? Oh yeah, they do. But they should definitely not be common place. Maybe "battlefield repairs" or some such nonsense (like using 1,000 MPH tape and Coke cans to patch bullet/shrapnel holes in aircraft until you can put them down for overhaul)... Anyway, you probably would have liked working for me in the .mil. I'm actually much more demanding now in the .civ life... I'm keeping my mouth shut...... Doing that in the first place might have avoided all this silliness! 
|
AR Sponsor