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Posted: 8/31/2008 8:15:24 PM EDT
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I'm a long time gun owner, but have just decided to pick-up a couple of semi-autos (before Obama bans them again). I see there are several companies that manufacture the AR-15, and they each have a ton of options. I'm looking for something that will be affective if needed (out to about 300 yards), and fun to teach my kids to shoot. I was thinking of the Bushmaster carbine with a 16" barrel, and flat rails top and bottom. But, a friend of mine that shoots competitively said only buy a 1 in 8 twist, not a 1 in 9 twist. When I was checking tonight, most barrels seem to be 1 in 9. I have 2 kids, plan to leave one to each; but don't have a ton of money to spend. Any advice from those in the know would be appreciated. I'll start looking at accessories after I get the basic weapons. I don't want the Mrs to see all the expense at one time. The 2 rifles will be enough of a shock. |
First off welcome to AR15.com! It is always good to see new members around. 
Bushmaster is sort of like the Camry of Ar15s. Nothing special and everyone and their mom has one. I would also look into LMT, Stag or RRA as well. They all make a great gun. Also look at purchasing the pieces separately. From what I understand if you purchase the gun as a whole they slap on an additional tax. However if you purchase the upper and lower separately you could save around 10 percent. Hope this helps, welcome to the forums and if I'm incorrect on anything I'm sure someone will chime in. |
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Im sure someone with more knowledge will chime in in time but I think your friend suggests the 1in8 for the lighter 55grain bullets. The 1in9 seems better for the 62grain bullets. As for the rifles....man you are gonna get a 100 different answers from 50 different people here. My .02 (your milage may vary  ) Bushmasters are a good start. Some here hate them, others love them. They are realatively inexspensive and the wide variety of parts out there make it easy to configure them any way you want. My advice, since you are going to leave these for your kids would be to start from the ground up. The AR platform has to be the easiest rifle to build, not the cheapest though. Start with a good quality stripped receiver then go from there. Maybe that way your kids can take part in building their future rifle. There are many great vendors here that can help with the parts as well as members that sell items, sometimes at great prices. I have dealt with Denny's guns and Bowers tactical. They are Two of the great outfits that love these things as much as we do. ps.good luck with the BRD |
| Since there is very likely a gun ban in the near future I would tend towards the better quality names like Colt, LMT, and Noveske. Or POF-USA if you are a gas piston fan. You can save money but not sacrifice too much quality for your purposes in the light, BUIS, and optic space. Spend money on a quality rifle, save money by carefully selecting accessories. |
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Thanks for the welcome. I stopped by a few times, but then got busy. Now I need to make the move so I figured it was time to post. I was thinking to start with the 16" barrel, because it would be lighter for the kids to shoot, and lighter if I ever want to carry it around. From what I have read I can always get the longer barrel later. If the kids are really into it, then I could even get a target barrel. Personally, when I say affective at 300 yards, I mean can disable a man. So consistent hits on a silhouette is good. I'm not personally into the cover with a quarter type shooting. But, I want the gun to shoot as well as the shooter can hold. The choices down the road were exactly my thinking on the flat rails. No reason to add optics, lights, lasers etc... to the initial cost, I will have enough grief from the Mrs. on the initial out lay for 2 weapons. Plus I don't think the extras are on the short list to be banned. I already have a case of 55gr; so I guess that is what I will be starting with. I do think the friend of mine shoots reloads with a heavier bullet. When I first looked at 223 weapons the only over the counter loads were 55gr. Do they sell heavier loads commercially now? I don't even know what LMT, Stag, or RRA mean. I checked out Armailite and Panther. The twist rate threw me, because it seemed they were all talking 1 in 9 and I was told to look for 1 in 8 or better. I'll also look into the parts option, but as a beginner that makes me nervous that I'll be missing something |
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Well, that is 2 of the first 2 responses to say I should look at buying this in parts. I was feeling overwhelmed with figuring out what I wanted when the idea was to walk into a couple of the local shops, say this is what I want; how much will it cost. And that is with having known the one owner for 20 years. Buying as parts and on-line yet really makes me pause. The kids are still kind of young to be picking the parts. I'm hoping the minimal kick and semi-auto will get them interested in shooting. But, I will check out Denny's and Bowers. If building in parts can I mix manufacturers? |
You have that backwards. Faster twist for heavier bullets. Slower twist for lighter bullets. A 1:7 will stabilize heavier bullets than the 1:9, which stabilizes heavier bullets than the 1:12. As for the thread author, my one set of recommendations would be to figure out what you are wanting the rifle for (ie, carbine course / home defense, Varmint, Target practice, 3-gun, etc), and then buy the best you can afford, even if it means not being able to buy some accessories right off the bat. |
| My AR will not be for competition, unless one of my kids really gets interested. For me it is a defensive weapon (yes a part of me is a survivalist) and a plinking gun that I can teach my kids to use firearms and hopefully instill in them an interest both in guns, and through that Constitutional rights. I'm basically trying to understand what the 1 in 8 vs. 1 in 9 twist means. |
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I called him today, (which I couldn't do last night when I started this thread). He confirmed that he shoots handloads, and that for shelf ammo 55-62 grain the 1 in 9 twist should be fine. He is shooting 80gr to 800 meters. Way out of my league. I do plan to hold off on accessories, both for cost, and because I want the kids to learn iron sights first. I think put the laser on the target takes some of the learning how firearms work, out of the range time. |
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If you're looking to buy two rifles now and are looking for good quality initial purchase look towards the major brands like Bushmaster, Stag (CMT), RRA, Armalite, Colt, LMT (Lewis Machine and Tool).. In no particular order. Smith and Wesson is building a nice AR also, plus they are giving rebates or magazines in advertisements that may still be in effect. Each twist (1:7, 1:9, 1:8) works with a wide range of ammunition so this shouldn't matter much to you except if you are a specialized shooter like long range target shooting. These rifles can be modified or upgraded with all sorts of accessories, barrels, optics, magazines, etc. You could buy a 5.56 and a 6.8 for example to have two calibers with different capabilities if you wanted to. The 6.8 has more power and is proving popular with deer hunting, and wild hog hunting to name a couple. The 6.8 is also undergoing further government testing. Visit 68forums.com. Check out the Industry Section above for the manufacturers' forums and their website links. Also search the Equipment Exchange for good deals on rifles that can be shipped to your local firearms dealer for you. |
This means 1 complete rotation of the rifling in (x) inches. Common twist rates for .223/5.56 are 1:7, 1:8, 1:9 and there are also 1:12 out there as well. The faster the twist rate (lower the 2nd number), the heavier/longer the bullet you can stabilize. If you read the FAQs in the ammo forum, you will see that the top performers for defensive purposes are fairly heavy bullets. The 75-77gr OTM rounds are considered the top performers, and will be stabilized by 1:7 and 1:8 (pretty sure). 1:8 is a common twist rate for high end stainless barrels, 1:7 is a common twist rate for high end chrome lined barrels. 1:9 is another common twist rate for chrome lined barrels. There really isn't an advantage to a 1:9 twist rate, but there is an advantage to a 1:7 twist rate. |
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1:7 (bullet spin 1 turn in 7 inches) came about for military standardization to a NATO standardized round years ago. Military M4 and M16 weapons utilize 1:7 twist. ammunition. 1:8 twist came about in target shooting circles. The US Army Marksmanship Unit uses a 1:8.5 twist if I recall correctly in their National Match M16's. As said above, 1:8 is common in stainless steel barrels for whatever reason. See Rock River Arms for example. 1:9 twist gained popularity in the 90's and is widespread now. There have been threads indicating some 1:9's handle heavier bullets and some do not. 1:9's aren't dangerous with heavier bullets, they just may or may not stabilize the bullets enough for accuracy purposes. Accuracy could suffer. Many Bushmasters use 1:7 twist barrels so you're fine there. I have seen 1:9 twist rifles shoot very well with most ammunition. Keep in mind that most bulk and over the counter ammo we buy for practice and defense is 55-62 grain and all the twists above will shoot just fine with this ammo. 75-77 grain match ammo is expensive and sometimes is hard to find, if you plan to shoot heavy bullet match ammo then you'll probably want the 1:7 or 1:8 twist. The 1:9 may or may not depending on who measured the twist and how the barrel is constructed. Defensive ammo from companies such as Hornady, Corbon, SSA is available in all bullet weights. So finding quality defensive ammo for a particular twist is easy now days. |
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Dracna. While there is a lot of very good information here I would not suggest building a parts gun as your first gun. While it is VERY fun and very satisfying, it requires a lot of time, research and patience. However if you do decide to build a parts gun you CAN mix and match different companies parts. What I would recommend quality and price wise. 1. Colt $1500 2. Noveske $1300 3. Lewis Machine and Tool $1200 4. Stag (CMT), Bushmaster, Rock River Arms, Armalite and Sabre $1000 These are the listing of quality and about what you should pay for them (Just my opinion, no one kill me please). Buy the best you can afford and worry about the accessories later. If you can afford a Colt, DO IT! Although they are overpriced they hold their value stupidly well. It would be an investment for your kids. Good luck! |
My reason for going with 2 rifles is that I have 2 kids, and if they are banned down the road; I want to be able to give one to each. I think I will try and kep them identical unless one really wants to get into target shooting then I will pay to upgrade theirs. I have no intention at this time in reloading, and will probably just get a couple cases of decent ammo. It sounds to me like the 1 in 9 will be cheaper to get started and will meet my current needs. Time to check out the equipment exchange and my local shops. I have been to the manufacturers' sites; they all require shipment to the local dealer, sounds like I might as well go there. Thanks |
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You don't have to reload in order to maximize the heavier bullets. Double TAP, Black Hills and Hornady all sell over the counter bullets with a 75 and up Grain bullet in them. |
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If you read the FAQs in the ammo forum, you will see that the top performers for defensive purposes are fairly heavy bullets. The 75-77gr OTM rounds are considered the top performers, and will be stabilized by 1:7 and 1:8 (pretty sure). 1:8 is a common twist rate for high end stainless barrels, 1:7 is a common twist rate for high end chrome lined barrels. 1:9 is another common twist rate for chrome lined barrels. There really isn't an advantage to a 1:9 twist rate, but there is an advantage to a 1:7 twist rate. It seems like the high end part is where I'm going to get nailed down. Since 1 in 9 seems to be standard, the prices also seem to be better giving it the dollar advantage. Thanks for the explaination. |
Thanks for the feedback. I too think that a parts gun at this time is beyond my knowledge level; and my available time level. I hope my kids don't view it as an investment. That means they can sell it for a more profitable investment. I hope they see it as insurance should they ever need it. Which I certainly hope they don't. |
| I have a Bushy, an RRA, and a sabre/stag combo....all run fine...all 1:9. I shoot mostly 55 grain stuff including Wolf, but my friends have some 1:7's and shoot some heavier bullets...the 55 gr still shoots good in their guns and I have had good luck with some heavier stuff in my 1:9. Alot of opinions here and good advice on ARFCOM, but for what you want, Bushmaster, RRA, Colt CMMG, LMT...all good..I think you will be happy with any of them..although, after you shoot them some, you will revisit ARFCOM and want more...1 of each is ideal if not more. |
No problem. As for high-end vs. not so high end, remember that you are buying these with the intent on buying something that you believe will not be available at a later point. Might as well buy quality. Not to mention, as I recently found out, buying quality once will be cheaper than buying twice, when you replace your lower quality kit with new top of the line gear. 
While I agree with hapyhar0ld about building a parts gun for your first, I do think that purchasing a complete lower and then purchasing a high quality upper is not a bad way to go. He also has a good list, but I would narrow it a bit, and exclude Bushmaster, Armalite and Rock River Arms. There is significantly better kit out there, for only a little bit more coin. |
I think you are right for buying complete rifles. I do not recommend "builds" for people new to this platform. Bushmaster makes a very decent rifle for the money. I love my XM-15. People will tell you that it is not as "mil spec" as some other brands, but for recreational shooting and home defense it is GTG. |
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