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Posted: 7/25/2008 4:06:09 PM EDT
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Who can tell me the good and bad about Model 1 Sales?] eseaton |
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I've bought 2 complete rifle kits from M1sales. One bull barrel 20 inch varminter - it was accurate but I bought it with the round free float tube and wasn't happy with that - limited accessory mounting, doesn't work best off of sandbags, etc. So I traded out that upper, Now, have a gun built around an M1sales kit, has the YHM free float 4 rail, Hbar profile 1/8 twist fluted stainless barrel. It's accurate - got my best ever group out of it, although it isn't as consistently accurate as a WOA barrelled rifle I've since put together. Best bang for the buck with M1sales is to buy the whole kit, rather than just the upper assembly. When you price it out, you wind up getting the whole kit for generally about $40 more than just an upper with BCG. Even if you don't want the stock and LPK, you can sell those and recoup the xtra $40, or just keep them as spares. I've bought other kits too, I like M1sales when cost is the driver in the build. Both kits I ordered arrived within 7 days, and I thought the second one with fluted barrel, free float, etc would have taken a little longer. I know a lot of folks here talk bad about M1 sales, but I'd want to hear their firsthand experiences, rather than the cousin's roommates brother from college stories or I heard it on the web crap. Feel free to spend more with other companies though too - I've done that as well and haven't been dissappointed there either. |
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They're not top of the line, but I've been reasonably satisfied with my dealings with Model 1. They use ER Shaw barrels and my 7.62x39 I got from them is one of the most accurate rifles I have. They don't use the highest quality stuff all around - many dislike their LPKs. But their uppers are good to go, and they're a good source for some parts. |
| At the price point of M1sales, you wouldn't expect top of the line, would you? I think they are a good value for the money. As mentioned, the ER shaw barrels can be tack drivers - that's been my experience. Sure, my WOA barrelled upper is slightly better, but I paid for that. For most of us, average shooters I think a M1sales upper will deliver acceptable performance. |
I dissagree; my M1S kit 20" A2 is as reliable, and MORE accurate than my RRA middy. |
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Im not a been there done that kind of guy, and never pretend to be. But please, elaborate on the quality materials and quality control M1S puts into their guns that go to ensure the rifles are free fronm defect and long term reliability. Without that, you guys and your M1S guns which have likely never been fired more than a few hundred rounds at a time sound more like your typical internet he said she said than anything I have mentioned. |
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The M1sales kits I've bought have hammers and triggers marked the same as RRA's lpk's, I haven't seen/heard of any problems with ER Shaw barrels. The bolts in my M1sales guns aren't marked any differently than BCM bolts, the carrier isn't either and has the same chrome lining, properly staked carrier. The uppers are the common keyhole forge mark. Is it different than my Colt HBar, sure!. But at a markedly different price point. Show me the difference between M1Sales, and Stag, Bravo Company, Delton, RRA, JT, Doublestar, DPMS, etc and I'll convert. If you are just talking about a difference between model 1 and Colt / LMT / Noveske / Sabre Defense, I'll concede that they don't have the same level of testing. Yes, my rifles have only seen several hundred (200-300) rounds in each session at the range, but they haven't performed any differently than the Colt I have now, and the Bushmasters I've owned previsously. I'm not trying to argue that Model 1 sales is top tier, but I don't think they are bottom tier either. Rather, solidly middle tier, good quality at the price point they deliver. |
| What BCG did you put in your model 1 upper? I can't tell the difference between my model 1 BCG and a BCM BCG I bought for another upper recently that didn't come with a bolt carrier. Nor can I tell the difference between my model 1 bolt and the bolt that came with my WOA barrelled upper. |
Jams are for toast and peanut butter   Take it to a rifle class. Then another. And then one more. After its third class (and about 4-6 thousand rounds later) and you havent had a "malfunction" lets talk again. Difference between a M1S bolt groups and a BCM is the testing and quality control of the one (BCM) and lack thereof in another (M1S). Sure, they look the same. |
BCM bolts I am familiar with are tested and marked as such... www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-AR15-Bolt-Assembly-MPI-p/bcm%20bolt%20assemly%20mp.htm |
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I bought the 7.62x39 upper from Model 1, and went with the MGI Enhanced Bolt instead of Model 1's. I couldn't be happier with the combo. With a bit over 1k through it, the function is perfect and the accuracy of the Shaw barrel is much better than I anticipated. Balance cost, quality and function and you'll find that Model 1 is a great choice. |
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I've purchased 2 kits, Model 1 Sales & J&T. The J&T shoots fine, with no assembly problems. I've yet to assemble the M1S, but my first impression is that the furniture isn't the quality of the J&T. M1S put their kit in my hand in 4 days after I ordered, J&T took about 3 weeks, some parts were not in stock. Both were basic 16" carbine, price difference was $5. The extra $5 gets you a better kit from J&T just make sure what you want is in stock. If you don't hear something in about a week get in touch with them, they don't inform you when they have parts out of stock. While J&T isn't the friendliest bunch they get the knod for better quality, while M1S put it in your hands quicker. <>< Duce: |
Saw the same exact failure on a M1S AR at the last match I shot. |
Mine is. I've had two Model 1 5.56 uppers. Neither worked reliably. They are a good place to buy name brand stuff, and some of their parts are Okay, but I would not buy a part they had to assemble. If I was buying a goto weapon I would get it from someplace else. |
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I have 2 M1S kit ARs. Both are what you expect for the price. My optics gun broke it's bolt at the cam pin hole at around 1000 rounds. Happened during a match. I replaced the bolt with a MPI LMT. Other than the bolt, they have run 100%. I recommended M1S for my brother's AR build. He loves it. Understand that they are not the top of the line and make your decision. Gringop |
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I have a M1S upper on a RRA lower with M1S LPK. I've put several thousand rounds through it without a problem. My range days usually consist of around 500 rounds for this particular rifle. I have two issues with M1S. The trigger from the LPK was a bit stiff when first installed and after a little polishing and shooting, it has gotten better but still has a significantly firmer pull than my other ARs. This could be fixed easily with a different trigger. Second, the screws for the bolt carrier key started to come lose which was causing the rifle to not cycle. I will take responsibility for that, seeing as I probably forgot to locktite them after an indepth cleaning. Other than those two gripes, one of which was probably my fault, I don't have anything bad to say. I have never had a problem with thier furniture or accuracy either. I, just like many people here on ARF, change out my furniture almost immediatly upon arrival, but then again a M4 handguard from company A looks and feels just like a M4 handguard from company B to me. My 16" M1S upper outshoots my step-fathers colt 20" all day, not dependant upon the shooter. I will agree that there are better products out there, but for the price you can't beat M1. I know that for my next build I won't hesitate to go back to them for an upper and LPK. I just might get a different trigger assembly all together. |
Im not trying to argue but what components of the model i sales rifles are inferior to other brands. These other gentlemen have stated that the carriers are properly staked and that thier guns run fine with no malfunctions. In my experience most ars are about the same.The componenets are all probably made in the same place. I figure if the rifle is assembled properly then it is probably just as good as any other rifle. These guys have stated that it basicaly has the same lower parts as other brand name rifles. So the other brands are probably just as likely to fail in that department. Id the bolt carrier is staked properly I dont see a problem with the carrier happening. Maybe the bbl stell is 4140 and not 4150 but I dint think thats gonna make the gun fail. So the bolt isnt tested. Does that make the bolt that much inferior? Isnt it still the same bolt just not tested? I own two cmmg rifles a rra and a stag, and I thinkfrom nowo n im gonna use del ton and im not to worried about the quality. Can you please explain why these kit guns are of lesser wuality than say rra stag s&w dpms and the like? |
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I don't know many guys with internet kit guns. I've seen two model ones, one wasn't working and the other stopped working over the course of a day and a half of shooting. They sell a ton of stuff and if you want a shits and giggles gun to shoot cans and junk cars they are probably a good deal since I would bet they are pretty good about taking care of problems. I would not have one for my "bump in the night" gun. |
crappy parts, crappy assembly, crappy quality control-not saying all the brands you named are better. New arguy sees a lot of guns, take that for what it's worth. I listen to him and I don't listen to anyone (except Ed sometimes )
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Barrels and upper receivers are ok. Bad part is you either go Gov't, light or heavy (full) contours. They do not have med contours. Also they are only 1/9 twists no 1/7 twists. BCGs and other parts are very second rate. It is worth your money to spend 30-50 bucks more on internal parts. IMHO |
With any luck, the parts, pieces and springs in lower cost/quality kits will come to you in the same shapes and sizes as more expensive, higher quality kits. With luck, lower cost and lower quality complete upper/lowers of full guns will come assembled correctly. Which is to say the parts will be within the appropriate specs of sizes and assembled correctly. I should, however, add that guns with less quality control have higher chances of coming with parts which are out of spec and/or assembled impropperly. It wasnt that long ago there was a real thread with a real situation that became somewhat of a joke around here. Im pretty sure, as I recall, a M1S guns shipped without a gas tube, or a gas tube upsidedown, something like that... Often times the differences can not be seen visually (although in many cases you can see the difference if you know what to look for). It is true many of the companies making guns are getting many of their parts from the same places. Don't be fooled into thinking that means they are the same. Stay with me... The big difference is usually the level of quality of the materials used (better metals, better plastics/synthetics). Even if they use the same quality raw material, there can be HUGE differences in both the preperation, treatment and finish of the same raw materials. Parts which do not have the same heat treatment or correct finish etc. will not last as long or hold up as well. Parts of inferior quality which are not treated the same will be even worse. If in the end, everything was made with the same materials, prep, treatment and finsishes, there can still be major differences. Better companies have higher standards and require further/additional testing and inspection of parts (especially barrels/chambers and bolts, these are some of the high stress or critically dimentioned parts you will see fail most often). I'll admit up front Im not smart enough to tell you exactly what magna particle testing is, exactly what proof testing is or how parts are shot peened. Honestly, I just dont know. I do know what they are for and I know that not very many of the companies being listed in this thread bother to do many of those tests. I am quite confident M1S doesnt do any of it. Places like Bushmaster does some of it, but I believe they will only do it to a small number of pieces in a batch. More expensive brands like Colt, LMT etc will do this to every single approriate part. These final tests will do more to ensure the overall quality and strength of a given part. Granted, even parts which have gone through all this testing can fail. As MarkM used to say... "these things happen". However, parts which have gone through all the above mentioned quality control steps have a FAR, FAR lower failure rate than parts which do not. I would venture to say the failure rate of better quality parts is DRAMATICALLY lower. People who spout off at the mouth that you are "paying for the name" with higher cost parts are actually partially correct. You are paying for their name and the level of quality control those few companies who do all the above steps (and sometimes more) typically demand. Do you need all of this? Thats up to you. Like I said in my initiall post, if you want a "gun" or something for fun and target practice, something for a hobby and to enjoy on the range, now and again, probably not. If you are getting a "weapon" or something you may defend a life with, something you want to carry you through one of the classes that have been mentioned so you can spend the time you are paying for learning, shooting and having fun instead of figuring out WTF is wrong with your gun, pay the extra money and get a "weapon". In other words, something you can trust and depend on to do the sort of things you should expect a weapon to do, in the conditions it should be expected to perform in, spend the extra money. Classes like that will push you, your skills, and your gear to their limits. I've been to a class where we shot in excess of 200 rounds in a single excersise! The guns were hot, getting dirty and the "guns" were having issues while the "weapons" kept going. |
Mine is a 1/8 so you may want to check again. |
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I've got three: An M4 with LaRue 9" hg's (well its an Model 1 M4 barrel, and M4 Upper) A carbine and a SP1 clone. I've never had any problems with any of them (no jams, or ftfs) and they are just as accurate as any other AR I've ever shot. I work in Law Enforcement and I've shot S&W's, RRA's, and a couple of Colts. I like my M1S just as much. I have nothing bad to say about them. |
| Most of the people who slam M1S have never owned one and simply go by the words of a few rabble rousers, embellishing stories as they go. Other than one issue with a .22 conversion kit that caused a .22 Stinger to case head failure (not the gun's fault, it was due to the kit), I've had one misfeed with my M1S with several hundred rounds through it. The trigger is a little bit stiff, and I may go with an LPK from another manufacturer the next time, but I'm happy with its performance. |
| I have a friend with a M1S upper on a Bushmaster lower and a BCM BCG. Not sure how many rounds he has through the gun, but he shoots quite a bit. At least a thousand, I would guess. He really likes the set-up and hasn't had any issues with it at all. Zero. We talked about M1S this weekend at the gunshow since M1S had a huge presence there. |
| I have a 20" 6.8 SPC M1S upper...put a few hundered rounds through it so far. I had to cut better feed ramps to get it to eat the SSA 115 extremes, but since then it has not showed any problems. It's plenty accurate, feeds well, and hasn't broke it's bolt yet. I have a CMT/Stag bolt for replacement, just in case. |
| I purchased 1 7.5" kit from them. The LPK was rough. The FSB was canted. I wasn't terribly impressed. I haven't ordered anything from them since then. On the other hand I know a guy who orders kits from them on a regular basis. He swears by them. I don't know if my issues were a case of me being more picky than him, or just bad luck. |
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