AR Sponsor
Posted: 6/29/2008 8:16:25 PM EDT
I recently built an AR and I like it. I didn't spend a bunch of $ on it because I wanteed to try er' out. Now that I'm hooked (no thanks to you folks ) I'd like to have a SHTF rifle. Yes, I hope that I'll never see a day anywhere necessary to having to grab the darn thing. But there's peace of mind knowing if I had to that it's there. Iknow I'll need to get top tier stuff. Recently, I've been noticing the 10.5/11.5" SBRs. Yes they're cool but are they a good SHTF rifle? Sure, great for CQB, but what if longer shots are necessary. I can now see why the military has gone with the M4. The 14.5" is the best compromise IMHO. I don't think it's worth the time and touble of the SBR porocess for a 1.5" shorter. So, I've been thinking about getting a 14.5" bbl w/ perm attached phantom or extended A2 FH. Problem is, are there any top tier uppers like this out there? The closes I can find are the Sabre Uppers. Are these the quality that I could stake my life on? I suppose I could get an LMT 14.5" upper and send it off to have a Phantom perm attached, but my issue would be this: 1) Legality. Eventhough I don't intend to mount the 14.5" upper on any gun (before the phantom is perm attached to bring it to 16" legal length). I'm concerned that just by having it (even for a shot period) before sending it off could be viewed as contructive intent and I could get into trouble. I don't want to break the law or get into any trouble. 2) does the process of perm attching a FH hurt the accuracy? Just a bunch of stuff I'm thinkin' about. So, what do y'all think? Get a registered SBR, get a Sabre perm attached upper? Forget it all and get a 20" A4  ??????? |
Here are my 2 colts: The one on the left is a 6920 I sold off the 16" upper and bought a Colt 14.5" upper from Clyde Armory and had ADCO permanently attach a Sabre Defense extended A2 hider. On the right is a 6400c, I went the SBR route and installed an unmodified Colt 14.5"  Sabre Defence is top notch, this one came from the factory with a 1/7 14.5" and permanent flash suppressor 
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A.) Nobody likes jcrowl. His collection is way too nice. B.) SHTF rifles should probably focus on reliability first, mission requirements second. In a SHTF sit, like some of the hurricanes, intermediate range engagements aren't really a concern, and an SBR will excell out to at least 300 yards. Most engagements would be inside the perimeter of your property, or within one square block. I personally opt for a 16" just because it's convenient, but FMJ, who's been through a couple of 'canes, insists the 14.5 with perm'd F/H is worth the trouble. There are some things I would insist on. First is that it be assembled properly. Next I would want a quality BCG. Then I would need a good sling, finally a good light. If you opt for a 14.5, I would say have it drop-shipped to Adco (or whomever) and never let it touch your door. It may affect accuracy, it may not. It is just as likely to improve accuracy as it is degrade it. It probably won't change at all. |
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Above comments are good, solid advice. It's not too hard to find an LMT 14.5" with a pinned hider, and that should be good - a Colt, Sabre, Noveske, LMT barrel in your length will work, no hesitation. CMMG, RRA, S&W, similar are not bad choices (I went with CMMG), but as an out-of-the box upper, it's not ideal - you'll want to put a few hundred rounds downrange as a confidence builder. Don't skimp on the barrel, BCG, or magazines. Anything else can break, but those are required for function. I'd go with a BCM BCG, or at least BCM Bolt. It's the cheapest MPi Shot peened bolt, and comes with the option of a CMT semi or Auto carrier. The LMT enhanced bolt is also very good looking, but everything I've heard to date about the BCM and similar carrier groups makes me think I'd rather get the BCM, have a spare BCM bolt in the pistol grip and be done. They come with the extractor spring enhanced, ejector spacer (black), and those will help with less than ideal cases, and I'd consider them a must for a SHTF build. Any lower will do, although storage is a nice-to-have (my SHTF setup has an EMOD and MIAD), again not necessary. If you want to go with a different trigger, I'd stick towards brand name (if it's a 2-stage, RRA at least, if not KAC). A heavier buffer might be a plus, although an H3 is overkill, and wouldn't be much help if you're shooting more underpowered ammunition. H buffer, or stock (after verifying the action spring length) will do just fine - for a semi carrier the H buffer is a logical fit. Silver soldering the flash hider in place won't affect accuracy much, so you should be fine on that angle - remember, that barrel is shorter than 15", and squeezing an extra .5MOA out of the setup isn't going to be extremely important in a SHTF scenario, so I'd be less worried about that part on your end. Last part about going with the pinned part is if you want to install a FF rail - decide on the exact foreend configuration you're going to want before setting that up, it'll save you in the long run that way. |
everytime i see your photos i feel poor...because I know those pictures are going to make my bank account have a negative balance when i break down and buy some optics. |
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Lol my ar resembles yours...just no opics  YOULL SEEEESSSS lol Im 18 and BRD has already put me in debt
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In a SHTF senario, you have to make sure you have adequate food, water, shelter, and a defensive position. Your house (unless you live in a bank) will not provide that. People can burn your house down with you in it and wait until you come out. If all hell breaks loose, I am getting away from the City to the mountains, so I would only bring a couple of rifles and a hand gun, and maybe 1,000 rounds of ammo. My SHTF guns are definitely my 16" 6.5 Grendel Tactical and my 16 inch Beowulf firing 334gr HP. |
Nobody likes you either... 
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I have a bit of a different outlook on SHTF than some. My basic belief is that you apply nothing more that what could honstly give you a force multiplier. For a basic, no nonsense SHTF I'd do the following: a. CMMG 16" Lightweight Chrome Lined 1/7 barrel with Mid-Length Gas System b. M16 "slicks side" upper A1 rear sights c. Badger Ordnance Tactical Latch d. Standard Taper Handguards e. Adapter on handguard for LED light f. BCM bolt g. CTR Collapsible Stock h. Aimpoint CompC3 on an Aimpoint AR-15 Carry Handle Forward Scout Base i. 1,500+ rounds of chosen ammunition loaded in magazines, stored in GI ammo cans with desicant. Its light, accurate, maneuverable and useful in low light conditions with the Aimpoint and LED light (both of which last a while without touching them). The A1 sight holds true and the BO Tac-Latch aids in cycling if your non-dominant arm becomes injured/unavailible and you need to cycle/clear the weapon. The mid-length gives a less violent pulse that reduces stress on system components. |
For SHTF- armed friends can't be beat.
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Sage advice, right there... Don't forget QUALITY ammo, either. It kills me that someone will go out and drop $1500 - $2000+ on a top-quality AR and then bitch when it won't run or group worth a damn when they run WOLF ammo or someone's shitty gun-show reloads through it. |
my wife would Divorce me for sure |
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Reliability is first and foremost which means putting together a gun using quality parts, and making sure the gun runs as is with the ammo you'll be using. 2nd is the "accessories" you put on there. Iron sights can fail, too. Bent front sight posts, mud caked rear sights, et cetera. Ive seen the entire rear sight unit fall off. I keep several spare batteries for my optics, and at least one spare on the rifle. My spare aimpoint battery goes in the little space for it in the LaRue mount. Bottom line is that any sight system be it irons, battery operated, or light operated can and do fail. Keep spare parts on hand, and keep a good supply of good mags you know work in your rifle. And shoot your rifle in the setup you plan to use it in, and if you can shoot it from akward and improvised positions. Shoot left handed, and practice reloads and one handed operation. You can do lots of training in the comfort of your own home. Nothing beats quality range time but you can get fairly familiar with things without going to the range. |
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The first time I used a 14.5" carbine I didn't realize it was an SBR. The difference is pretty slight. I've seen guys make really good shots at 100+ yards with short little ARs. Depending on where you are one of those might be great. The few people who I have talked to who have used them said they were effective with heavier bullets. Personally in a pretty rural area I think I might want a 20" I use almost exclusively a 16" but one time I shot next to someone who was using 62 out of a 20 and I had 55s out of my 16. We were shooting at steel about 250 yards away. My g/f said she could not hear my rounds hitting (I could but i had electonic muffs on) however the other guys you could hear to FWANNNNNG! Still my main Ar is a 16" LMT and I've been really happy with it. |
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the 16" will do just fine in any situation. it's a compromise between the SPR's and the M4's aka the "RECCE" as i have stated before in a real SHTF event it's more about the operator than the tools. sure a good kit will help but if you can't hack the mental strain your gear will just go to the next guy. what my SHTF gear looks like (-weapons, as all of them were lost at sea on a fishing trip)  
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My thoughts are slightly in line with those above: Reliable/Tested Rifle Enough spare Parts to rebuild said rifle Built into a case Cleaning equipment (built in to repair kit) 1k Rounds of stored ammo Basic tools Batteries lotsa batteries Pistol (9mm) After that its all about load bearing vest/pack. |
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My Idea of a SHTF rifle is no optics that need batteries, light and sturdy and good ammo. I built a Cav Arms MK2 ultralight with a 16" post-ban (here in CT sadly) pencil barrel A2 setup and a Hard Chromed CMT BCG for simple wipe down cleaning if I don't have access to proper solvents/cleaning supplies. On Another note, I might just grab my STG 556 AUG Clone with a Trijicon Reflex II optic and go to town with that. If you have to have a tactical light or NVG and such, get a bunch of rechargeable batteries and solar chargers for said batteries. |
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Heck, I'll play. Since I live in a rural area and routinely use my carbine around the farm as my Go-To and to "see what the dogs are barking at", I think my idea of a SHTF gun is pretty much what I'm already using. If things go sour I see myself holding-up at home and dealing with the situation from a defensive perspective. I use a 16" carbine with a short RDS and a SureFire TL-3 light mounted on the handguard in the 10 o'clock position. The light is easily dismounted and stashed in a pack when it's broad daylight and I know I won't need it, and the RDS is backed up by a quality BUIS. These things are absolutely essential in my opinion, since darkness is something that must be dealt with and the only way of doing so that I know of is with light. The weapon light provides the needed illumination and the RDS lets me see where it's pointed. Yes, both those items require batteries, and batteries can be hard to get if the stores are closed, but I have spares on hand and I will gladly use these advantages for as long as I can. But the heart of it all is a proven reliable carbine that I know will work even in nasty conditions. I've considered some of the other accessories out there on the market that can address one problem or another, but they all have the annoying habit of adding weight and bulk to the gun. I often carry my carbine on long hikes in rough, hilly country and believe me, after a few hours toting the thing in places like that you notice every ounce. This brings me to another essential item, a good sling. A VERY good sling! This is just my opinion and it's what I've decided meets MY needs. It's everything I need and nothing I don't. Yours' may be a lot different. Still, I find it hard to imagine a scenario where a weapon-mounted light wouldn't be a real asset. |
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I part from the above comments slightly.................. Priority for a SHTF rifle needs to be reliabliity. Then weight you will spend alot of time carrying the rifle and an 11 or 14 lbs rifle will be to much. A sling is a must but weight is the key. The third should be accuracy. There are many good companines, I would say spare parts would be the next thing: bolt+extractor, & firingpin on the rifle perferably, then a spare carrier. A light is a needed addition, but not at the sacrifice of weight. Standard Hand guards with a rail bolted on and a Surefire 6P would be fine with a shock bezzel, or get the LED 6P that ha twice the run time. |
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I think a lot of guys forget about weight. I see some of these shtf rifles and bob packs and I think "boy that would get heavy after one day hiking in the woods" I'm too fat and too slow and have no desire to play Mad Max, but I have hoofed it through the woods all day recently. I would not under any circumstances do without a light on my carbine, really I should get a spare for it and mount two. Trying to use a carbine without a mounted light flat out sucks. And it's not just an issue if you are wandering around in the middle of the night (well I wouldn't do that-we see that posted here). I guess I'm the only one who realizes the four hills he tried to cross in afternoon were too much and the sun set, or he got lost (I'm the only person on this site who has ever admitted to getting even turned around in the woods for a moment  ) or what if your wife or son turns and ankle or just gets tired out and you have to stop? What if you have to enter an abandoned barn or cabin that's pitch dark? |
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I went with the 14.5" with perm FH due to a suppressor issue. If I wasnt short I would have left it alone. With the 1 1/2 gone it really helps me out, BUT for weight it really does nothing. I personally would NOT have the upper in my home without the paper work being done/approved in hand for an SBR if its been cut down and not pinned/welded. I enjoy my toys and freedom way too much to have them taken away. As for accuracy, no issues what-so-ever. |
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My survival gun is a cmmg 14.5 m4 with perm hider Stag lower socom stock miad eotec troy buis sure fire light with Daniel derfense mount cheap rail and grip ( will get around to putting better grade stuff soon)  However survival gear shood not be just your rifle. Water filtration, food, first aid, shelter, are important survival tools. This kit served me well in Honduras. Not everthing is shown in the picture, but the outdoor gear worked great 
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Yah, well, mine altogether was 1200 with m261 .22 kit lol. All thats left is to SBR it to 10.3, Acog Ta01nsn, PEQ2a and wola! Heres my SHTF rifle. Cant go wrong with this, accurate, cheap, reliable and light:  stag model 2 upper, RRA lower, KAC rail system |
Sah-weet rifle - simplicity itself. |
I'll play but only if yall will like me... 
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1) About the legality of the 14.5" barrel - a machine gun dealer that I was dealing with told me that having the short barrel and any AR15 lower in your residence is not allowed by law, it's better to temporarily move the lower to another place and only taken back after the barrel had been shipped out to the gunsmith for permanent installation of the FS (or directly ship the barrel to the gunsmith). 2) Accuracy should not be affected by permanently attaching the FS, but I personally prefer the pin and weld method rather than the soldering method because the barrel would only be exposed to a lower temperature. My actual SHTF AR during the '92 L.A. riots when I was living there at that time was my former Colt model R6530 Sporter Lightweight carbine I bought brand new in '91, I've also got my shotgun a Benelli M1 Super 90 auto, Sig P226 9mm and Colt compact 1911 .45 pistols. On my current SHTF AR I prefer these features: - Mil-spec barrel steel - Chrome bore and chamber - 1/7 twist - so I could use heavier bullets - F type standard FSB - HPT & MPI tested barrel (not batch tested) - Mil-spec, shot peened, HPT & MPI tested (not batch tested) bolt - Extra power bolt extractor spring, black insert and O-ring (O-ring only for midlength & rifle gas systems) - M16 bolt carrier with properly staked gas key - H buffer for carbine gas system only - Magpul PMAG & USGI mags with Magpul followers I've got Colt 6721 (with 16" Denny's-GTS Operator, midlength gas system, medium contour barrel), LMT 16" M4 carbines and would also won't mind having a Noveske next time. Other good brands would work fine as long as critical components are upgraded then fully tested with a minimum of 600 rounds without any FTF. |
I don't, but you do have to add a few things to those ARs to make us all hate you. And before jrs93accord chimes is, nobody like you. |
Well this is my SHTF rifle. My antiarmor SHTF gun  My NODs are PVS-14/ITT 6015 and my handgun is a Glock 17. I have a 14k gallon backup water supply(pool) and 3 months worth of MRE's, canned goods and a small backup Gen. I have a dirtbike, radios, about 100+ AA batts and I have about 15k rounds of ammo. Hopefully I will make it a couple of days FREE |
Ok, you just hit the nail on the head with that ar15...exactly 100% how mine will look ina few years once i save... New desktop. |
Just walk away! |
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i plan to "bug in" but should i need to hit the trail i'm comfortable with my gear and my intended travel plans. i didnt know it was going to turn into that kind of a party, i'll play. basic needs for SHTF operations............  AR has seen some changes (  former SHTF weapons, all were lost at sea)
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I agree but you have to make sure you practice with it and maintain it on a regular basis for it (you) to be effective
Again, I agree. 10.5-12.5 AR's have some advantages in CQB or if you are going to run a can but all things considered, I do find the 14.5" AR to be the best compromise
And yet again, I agree
Saber is the only top shelf 14.5" barreled option I am aware of that can be bought from the factory with a good, permenatly attached FH. Saber is very good stuff and yes, after the appropiate testing (which I consider mandatory regardless of who made it), I would trust my life on it. That said, there are other options...
You really do not need to over think or worry about this. I have had 14.5" barrels sent to my house only to later send them off to have a FH permanently attached and no JBT kicked in my door or killed my dog. If you want to go the really safe route you can either A. Buy the upper from a dealer like Denny would can permanently attach the FH of your choice to it before shipping it to you or B. Have who ever you buy the barrel\upper from send it directly to someplace like ADCO (instead of your house) to have a the FH taken care of. Going route "B" does have some risk involed because you will not see the upper you just bought until after it is modified. If you have an issue, you may be screwed or be out more OOP money to get it resolved?
Well I can't say for a fact because I've never shot a 14.5" barrel and then sent it out to have a FH permanently attached to see a true "before and after" but if done right, there is no reason that it should effect the accuracy and judging by the barrels I've had done, if it did, they must have been match grade accurate before the installation! In summery, my SHTF\SD\HD carbines are 14.5" M4gery's. I too find the 14.5" length to be the best compromise. Mine are not SBR'ed and I do not feel the added expense is worth it in this case. I bought my barrels separately and sent them out to have the FH's permanently attached to stay legal. I prefer the SDI ext. A2 and YHM Phantom 5C1 Flash hiders for this purpose. I have found ADCO to be the best place to have this work done. Good luck. |
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