AR Sponsor
Posted: 5/22/2008 8:51:09 AM EDT
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i want to know the inside scoop on this oprod/piston trend we are in 1. is it a temp fix for a flawed design 2. is the additional cost worth the documented improvement of the system 3. why not a complete redesign of a weapon system (does spare parts and existing inventory prohibit this) 4. if non-Direct impingement weapon is better how do you sort out the manufatures of the different systems as every one has thier best design as an avid outdoors man and hunter i am looking at getting a new system not that there is anything wrong with my rem 700 mod here are my requirements semi-auto .308 cal ( i do not want to re-tool for other caliber ) sub moa Accuracy all around durability and quality i have looked at DPMS, armalite, rock river and found base retail rifles needing a little love before i get what i want then on the other hand i have looked at JP's LRP-07 and LWRC's sabr (not sold yet) and Noveske Rifleworks N6 18 inch heavy and POF's contribution i come from a family owned iso 9001 cert machine shop so you can spare me the needless details just cut it down to brass tacs no matter how i cut it up i am spending between 2800 and 3200 for base rifle mag and iron sights oh and i better mention that it needs to be American made but back to my question ( to op-rod or to not op-rod is the question at hand) some say it is still a flawed design do to the way the rod interacts with the carrier group needing input as this cash is burning a hole in my pocket thanks for all you comments and ideas shawn |
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thanks for the input still not answering the question i have posed what is the deal with non-direct impingement ie LWRC Colt and everyone making a piston style ar i have talked with industry professionals and some have said piston is not a real fix do to the way it interacts with bolt carrier group. |
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To me the LWRC SABR is at the top of my list for a future purchase but it is still a wait and see proposition. I will see how they perform from an accuracy perspective and from a reliability perspective before I commit to buying. I have seen guys with AR10s that shoot great groups... I have seen guys with AR10s that have reliability problems or accuracy problems with lots of bandaids to try to fix them. I passed on AR10s for that reason as well as becasue I shoot a lot suppressed. I primarily prefer pistons for the reduced blowback when suppressed. I dont think they have some sort of ungodly reliability or anything... its just a different operating system with some different things to take into consideration. It is not a bandaid for a flawed design as the AR design was not flawed in the first place. It is not any less well engineered to have a piston AR than a ground up piston rifle either. I dont understand what you think the issue is with the rod striking the carrier off center... that it will harm the rifle? No it does not. That it harms accuracy? No it does not... not when all you want is sub MOA performance as you stated. For me its all about ergonomics, performance, and having no "issues" or things that bug me about a rifle. I own an LWRC in 5.56 because of that. I liked the AR platform from the start because of ergonomics, size , etc. It has all the benfits of a DI weapon and it gets rid of the things I didnt like such as CLP or gas spraying on me when suppressed... tolerating a bit more lax cleaning, needing a bit less lube, etc. I see it only as an enhancer of the design for my uses and I see no negatives. I am not one to claim "more reliability" becasue while that might be statistically valid the end user experience is all anyone really cares about. Both should be reliable if you get good examples of each. The people who downplay the piston the most are those who do not own one. It is not that they had any special knowledge going in that kept them from it either. They had preconceptions. They still dont have a lot of experience with them yet they can be very vocal. I really just wanted to try something to address my specific issues. A piston system does that beautiully. Its just another option... Do you NEED FF tubes? Do you NEED a 2 stage trigger? No the AR was fine without them but for some people, like me, they are appreciated. Is it worth the money? Thats hard to say... I will spend almost anything to get what I want if I have to. Pistons are certainly not an economical choice... |
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I've played with pistons and they are not for me. The LWRC piston carbine I shot was heavier than my DI carbine with an EOTech, flashlight, VFG, and railed forearm and the piston gun had regular M4 handguards. I don't have any reliability issues with my DI guns beyond mag problems, and I doubt a piston would fix that. I don't shoot FA and I don't shoot suppressed and my pistol length AR runs fine with a KX3. I don't clean my weapons religiously, either, by the way. I think pistons are around in such numbers because hype has finally built up to the point that people think basic M4/M16 rifles are unreliable. If you delve into the suppressed SBR world then I think you should definitely look at a piston setup. Otherwise it is, in my opinion, an unnecessary expense and added weight for little real benefit. I think there are some really well built piston guns out there if you have the $$$ to drop. I'd rather have 2 guns I know I can depend on than 1 I know I can depend on. |
The LWRC piston adds about 2 oz or so to the rifle just so you know. I would not want anyone to get the wrong idea by your post which must be comparing an ultralight barrel with a SOCOM profile or something. THe carrier has a slightly reduced weight and th piston parts are VERY light indeed. |
Yes, it is a superlight barrel, I thought I'd put that in there but I obviously didn't. I did not like the weight and balance of the LWRC piston gun I fired. I swear it was more than 2oz heavier than a standard M4. |
 This is a 16" M6A2. This picture was taken a couple of months ago with an older 16" M6A2 after a similar a which-is-heavier debate. The barrel has the M4/203 cuts but even with the slightly heavier profile, theres no way the gun you shot was heavier then a decked out DI carbine. |
| Are you sure it was not a SOCOM profile? All the new ones are SOCOM profile .850" under the hand guards. The only fair weight comparison would be a Colt 6920HB. Even still if you put both on a scale I cant see all that gear weighing more than a 6920HB plus a couple ounces. |
Mine is just under 7lbs also. I will go weigh it and get back to you.  Sorry for the bad pic. Now, unless we weigh the weapons on the same scale, this is not super accurate. However, I put my loaded G19 on the scale and it came out to 2lbs even. The internet say this is supposed to be 30oz. So the scale appears to be 2oz heavy. In other words, the difference is less than I thought, but still there. |
Daniel Defense Lite, Niiice. |
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thanks for all the input i got a lot better response from you guys then from at www.m4carbine.net forums i think i am going to do what i had planned either the N6 18" Heavy 7.62mm Rifle or the JP LRP-07 i have a good friend that shoots 3 gun and he loves his JP-15 and i have fired it, it is a sweet shoot'n rifle plus the jp guys do really stand behind their product so i cant goo wrong with their 308 (i like the side non-recp-charging handle) then the issues becomes either hammer forged polly barrel or button rifled cryo barrel the noveske is forged polygonal and the JP is button cyro treated any input on that ? anyway optics will be a NF for long range (coming off my Rem 700 mod same cal. ) and a red-dot for scout or JP's Combo |
I'm honestly shocked to see that your weapon is so lightweight. Reading is fundamental.  I think a better comparison would be to a 16" weapon with a similar profile - I think you'll find the weight specs are MUCH closer.
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there are a few of them POF_USA and the new not for sale at this time 308 Sabr system from LWRC |
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weight is a concern for me as this will be a pack rifle in a drag bag on my back this weapon is replacing my Rem 700 mod so it will be a little heavier i live very close to a medium sized ranch that i have hunting permission for the whole kit i carry is lightweight 1. drag bag 2. rifle 3. 10 rounds of ammo (ie i am hunting deer, piggies. and the fun long range antelope) 4. hydro pack on back 5. Rhino GPS (garmin) 6. knife for field dress'n |
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Unless the piston modifications lower the weight on the carrier, they will be heavier than the gas tube system. One issue I have with piston systems is the off-axis operating force. The piston sits above the bore line. Because the piston now pushes on the carrier ABOVE the carrier's centroid of mass, it causes the carrier to pitch the tail of the carrier down. If a standard carrier is used, the short guide rails on the front of the carrier now place much greater forces on the softer aluminum upper, accelerating wear. |
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